India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[chinawhite]

I know the arjun has a BMS device but i meant a actual functioning "system" which includes senors, surveillance devices like UAV and other units with a BMS system. The only information i have found is the datalink it uses to unit to other arjun tanks to form "hunting packs". There was a good article about the pakistani C4I posted which includes UAV and was connected with troops in the battalion.

EDIT

The former are not an issue for an Arjun frontally [Refering to the HJ-8]

How so?

 

[Archer]

Pathfinder-X,

Thank you.

chinawhite,

I know the arjun has a BMS device but i meant a actual functioning "system" which includes senors, surveillance devices like UAV and other units with a BMS system. The only information i have found is the datalink it uses to unit to other arjun tanks to form "hunting packs". There was a good article about the pakistani C4I posted which includes UAV and was connected with troops in the battalion.

The Arjun BMS is tied to the Indian Army's BSS, Battlefield Surveillance System, which far outweighs the PA BMS in terms of operational utility and depth of information sharing.

For instance, the BSS/ BMS draw information from surveillance devices such as LOROS, BFSR-SR/MR to UAVs- such as the Searcher Mk2 & Nishant (meant for TBA). I say outweighs the PA's information network, because there has been little to no information, that the PA has invested in the level of sensors the IA has.

The former are not an issue for an Arjun frontally [Refering to the HJ-8]

The Arjuns frontal arc is exceptionally well protected, and India has access to the latest ATGMs for tests, superior to the HJ-8 series. These include the Milan-2T and Konkurs-M, both license manufactured at BDL, and the Kornet (ditto).

 

[chinawhite]

Pathfinder-X,
The Arjun BMS is tied to the Indian Army's BSS, Battlefield Surveillance System, which far outweighs the PA BMS in terms of operational utility and depth of information sharing.

There was really a good article going around about pakistan NCW. As I remember it, it was involving the german Luna and its own UAV programs which will intergrate with the other pakistani ground forces and swedish erieye

The Arjuns frontal arc is exceptionally well protected, and India has access to the latest ATGMs for tests

Unless you have reports about them testing the ATGMs on the arjun test it does not mean anything to have them in your inventory

 

[Archer]

There was really a good article going around about pakistan NCW. As I remember it, it was involving the german Luna and its own UAV programs which will intergrate with the other pakistani ground forces and swedish erieye

"Will", "might"...in contrast the Indian BSS is already being deployed.
The Erieye is not intended for JSTARs style roles. Its own UAV programs, hype apart, are fairly primitive in terms of payload (sensor package).

Unless you have reports about them testing the ATGMs on the arjun test it does not mean anything to have them in your inventory

India has thrown everything it has against the tank to check it out. The final armour package was cleared recently.

 

[chinawhite]

"Will", "might"...in contrast the Indian BSS is already being deployed.

Its being deployed bit by bit and couldn't be called a fully functional or ready system. They are merely plans in the working stage although india has been working on it longer than the pakistanis have. If it were delpoyed there would havve been larger scale exercises many involving a corps size unit

India has thrown everything it has against the tank to check it out.

I still need a source

 

[Waylander]

I never heard of our Luna UAV being part of any foreign military development project.

 

[kams]

I never heard of our Luna UAV being part of any foreign military development project.

There were some news reports in 2004 that Pakistam may acquire 4-5 Luna from Germany. I am not sure whether this deal went through.
link - Pakistan acquiring UAV from Germany

Pakistan has some indigenous UAV such as Bravo and Vector. Bravo is a small UAV with a payload of 20 kg. I do not have any info on Vector.

Here are some links to various UAVs Pakistan uses.

international UAV

UAVforum

 

[Archer]

Its being deployed bit by bit and couldn't be called a fully functional or ready system. They are merely plans in the working stage although india has been working on it longer than the pakistanis have. If it were delpoyed there would havve been larger scale exercises many involving a corps size unit

Dude, when you dont know about something- its best to ask, rather than speculate. Look up exercises Vijay Shakti & a host of others. Obviously the system is not deployed army wide, it will be implemented step by step, and it is currently being deployed at the strike corps level..

I still need a source

Ask DRDO, they are pretty open about it. For references about the trials- check MODs comments circa 2001-02.

 

[chinawhite]

Obviously the system is not deployed army wide, it will be implemented step by step, and it is currently being deployed at the strike corps level.

I already know what has been and what as not being deployed. Because the indian army had some trial divisions with "some" devices does not mean it is now able to do NCW operations.

What i have read is a "proof of concept" trial has been done with 25,000 men in Desert Strike which might be what your refering to me in the indian name which was a limited exercise between the army and the airforce to show new concepts and devices being used. And what i said above meant it was being done step by step and was not fully finished since there are more devices that are meant to be used on the drawing board or have not yet been delpoyed

For references about the trials- check MODs comments circa 2001-02.

All that i have seen is statements from the indian media about the kanchan armour. No mention of speicfic test or anything.

But here is a statement from the media i remember
"""Experts who saw
the MBT in the DEFEXPO 2004 did
concede that the build appeared
“much stronger that that of T-72 or T-
90S.”"""

 

[kams]

I already know what has been and what as not being deployed. Because the indian army had some trial divisions with "some" devices does not mean it is now able to do NCW operations.

What i have read is a "proof of concept" trial has been done with 25,000 men in Desert Strike which might be what your refering to me in the indian name which was a limited exercise between the army and the airforce to show new concepts and devices being used. And what i said above meant it was being done step by step and was not fully finished since there are more devices that are meant to be used on the drawing board or have not yet been delpoyed

The exercise was named 'Vajra Shakti' which can be loosely translated to 'Power of Thunder' or 'Power of Lightning'. Validation of NCW was one of the objectives of the exercise. I don't know how did you arrive at the conclusion that IA had some trial divisions with some devices. I have tried to collate the open source information available on 'Vajra Shakti' all of which suggest IA employed most, if not all of the available resouces to test the NCW capability.

India's modernizing army gets "techno-savvy"
IRNA - Islamic Republic News Agency

New Delhi, May 10 -- Indian Army whose Jalandhar-based No. 11 corps is now in the midst of the ten-day exercise code named "Vajra Shakti" in Punjab, is training on satellite aided war maneuvers, reports 'Hindustan Times'.

India is honing its skills for the battlefield of the future where machines would be as much if not more important than the men in fatigues. As part of the future-oriented techniques, satellite imaging facilities are being provided at all division headquarters of the Indian Army as an integral part of its war-fighting machinery.
This exercise and operational grooming is part of efforts to familiarize Indian Army with the changing needs of the battlefields of the future.

For the first time, a Force Multiplication Command Post (FMCP) has been set up to integrate real-time flow of information as a principal tool to decision making. This move announces the arrival of network-centric warfare capability in the Indian Army.

Strategic and crucial information collected at the command post from such diverse sources as UAVs (Unidentified Aerial Vehicle), atellites, long range reconnaissance and observation system (LORROS) radars and even digital photos transferred to infantry soldiers from the battlefield through modem.

Indian Army Chief General J.J. Singh who witnessed the exercise involving the FMCP said future wars will be short and intense.

Singh said, technology will be the principal ally in future wars.

The 10-day exercise is being held to validate the new war doctrine and battle drills down to the unit levels. The doctrine presupposes a severe limitation of time, and is oriented towards
'blitzkrieg' offenses.

This simulation is the closest environment for troops to practice battle drills. It involves an active two-sided conflict.

Modernization of its army has been on top of India's defense requirements during the recent years. Modernization of its forces consists of heavy purchase of military hardware and battle field training.

As part of the move Indian Air Force and the Navy are already shopping around the world for lethal weaponry. The Army which traditionally depends on its million-strong manpower is not willing to lag behind and is training to become techno-lethal.

link globalsecurity

The salient features of Ex. VAJRA SHAKTI, as collated from open sources, were as under:

Offensive strike operations were carried out by a Pivot Corps employing from its own resources an infantry division, armoured regiments and an independent mechanized brigade.
The above offensive operations were exercised against the backdrop of a Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Warfare threat from the enemy.
Special Forces were employed in pre-emptive strikes for furtherance of the offensive operations.
Since Cold Start War Doctrine envisages swift, day and night operations, the offensive strikes were supported by advanced C4I (Command, Control, Communications, Computers and Intelligence) network and systems.
The above included the establishment of a Force Multiplication Command Post for integration and flow of real-time information of the enemy to combat units, collected by satellites, UAVs, aerial reconnaissance, radar networks, communication intercepts etc. Digital photographs of the enemy areas were transmitted real time to forward combat units, facilitating speedy decision-making by Commanders.
Exercising of all of the above could be termed as the commencement of network-centric warfare in the Indian Army.
Information-dominance of the battlefield was practiced by use of electronic warfare systems.
The Indian Air Force provided 130 sorties for this exercise in a variety of roles from reconnaissance, fighter aircraft strikes, attack helicopter operations and Special Forces operations.

link saag

The Times of India, 10 May 2005Blitzkrieg! Army goes hi-tech with satellite imagery (RAJAT PANDIT)
GAG (Jalandhar): Armed with real-time satellite and UAV imagery, night-vision and precision strike capabilities, the Army is
now practising for short high-intensity blitzkrieg wars in a digitised battlefield. The ongoing combat exercise Vajra Shakti - the
first big air-land exercise after Operation Parakram nearly ended in actual conflict with Pakistan in 2002 - has provided the
Army with just the right platform to test its new war doctrine. Interestingly, the Army is also using feeds from the Technology
Experiment Satellite (TES), launched by ISRO in October 2001, which can beam one -metre high-resolution images of troop
and armoured movements while orbiting in the sky, said sources. The feeds from TES, regarded as a precursor to a fullfledged
dedicated military satellite, and UAVs are being beamed to the "image interpretation vehicles" of the Army, which are
equipped with sophisticated computers and photowrite systems. Though the Indian Army still has some way to go before it can
deliver precision-guided munitions through satellite signals like the US, it has embarked on the road to dispel the "fog of war"
by enhancing "battle-field transparency".

The Tribune, 11 May 2005
Speed and surprise: An exercise in modern warfare
OPERATION Vajra Shakti, the 10-day Army exercise which concluded on Monday, is the first major exercise conducted after
the release of the new Army doctrine in October last. The doctrine rightly emphasises speed and surprise, and the need for
developing a "homespun" variety of the Revolution in Military Affairs (RMA). The exercise on the banks of the Sutlej,
conducted along with an air element provided by the Indian Air Force, explored new tactical concepts and deployed a variety
of modern technologies. The RMA, along with other related acronyms like C4I2SR, have been bandied about increasingly in
strategic affairs literature ever since the first Gulf War. Though the acronyms are a mouthful, and some of the energetic
speculation applies more to a child's video game than the real world of conflict, they refer to genuine changes driven by
advances in information technology. C4I2SR is Command, Control, Communications, Computers, Information, Intelligence,
Surveillance and Reconnaissance, and is all about creating a "system of systems" with which to win even without fighting, and
if necessary, triumph over the enemy in an actual engagement. Sensors, weapon systems and even the foot soldier in the
front line can be networked in real-time or close to real time using "sensor -to-shooter" links. Multiple targets can be acquired
quickly and fire-power delivered not only more precisely, but also from stand-off range.



The Tribune, 12 May 2005
Army's tactical network goes hi tech (Vijay Mohan)
Gag (Jalandhar), May 11: In a bunker beneath the swirling dust and sun-baked plains of Punjab, a group of Army officers in
battle fatigues sit before a bank of computers, processing information flowing in on data lines from various formations
deployed in the field for operations. In an adjacent bunker, with its walls covered with maps, a commander grazes at a
projector screen showing a video image being transmitted from an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) flying overhead, checks a
blow-up picture downloaded from a satellite and printed in a mobile centre a few minutes ago and compares it with a picture of
the same area taken a few hours ago. Information from other formations about their location, movement and feedback from
their own surveillance set-up, data from UAV and the latest satellite imagery on enemy positions and movements give the
commander an instant picture of the scenario in his theatre. This enables him to drastically cut down on the time frame
required to make a comprehensive assessment of the emerging situation and take tactical decisions on deployment and
movements which are passed down the line equally fast.

NCW is ever evolving with the induction of new technology, information gathering platforms.

But here is a statement from the media i remember
"""Experts who saw
the MBT in the DEFEXPO 2004 did
concede that the build appeared
“much stronger that that of T-72 or T-
90S.”"""

You chose to quote only a part of the report. The full paragraph dealing with battle survivability of Arjun reads;

BATTLE SURVIVABILITY
The Arjun tank uses the indigenously
designed and developed ‘Kanchan’
composite armor which is designed to
provide protection superior to similar
amour on other tanks. The ‘Kanchan’
amour has been successfully tested
against fire from APFSDS, HEAT and
HESH ammunitions. Experts who saw
the MBT in the DEFEXPO 2004 did
concede that the build appeared
“much stronger that that of T-72 or T-
90S.”

 

[chinawhite]

alidation of NCW was one of the objectives of the exercise.

No need to quote it, just read the sources

C4ISRjournal.com
http://www.isrjournal.com/index.php
http://www.isrjournal.com/story.php?F=1382409

You chose to quote only a part of the report. The full paragraph dealing with battle survivability of Arjun reads;

Im pretty sure i quoted ACIG on this and had only that bit.

The rest of that doesn't tell me the results of the test nor what weapons which were used

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys here are some interesting titbits for you all:

1)indian army is planning to acquire 100 additional t-90s main battle tanks ,along with transfer of technology for upto 1000 additional main battle tanks.

2)russia has offered india the arena self protection systems for it's t-72 upgrades.

3)indian army has expressed renewed interest in the iskander-e short ranged tactical surface to surface ballistic missiles.they will be watching the demo firings of this missile.these i believe are intended to replace the existing prithvi1 and 2 missiles and will supplement the prithvi3 and the lora missiles.

here check out this link:

http://www.armstass.su/data/Files/File/77.pdf

 

[vedang]

final question:::
is the indian army interested in arjun or NOT???&&the answer to dat question i think would be NO..... (whatevr the chief of army staff is made 2 say 2 the press evryday....

 

[Archer]

Chinawhite- check the MOD reports as well.

Vedang
They are interested, but as long as the Arjun clears the build/quality trials.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,drdo has now offered the tank-ex to the indian army, tank-x is a cross between the t-72 and the arjun(arjun gun ,armour and turret mated to the t72 chasis and engine),as of now it is claimed to have a speed of 60kms/hr however it is to be upgraded with a better engine.

here check out this link:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1869061.cms

NEW DELHI: The Arjun main-battle tank may not be combat-ready even after 32 years of development work, but this has not deterred Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) from offering another "experimental" tank to the Army.

Though this "new" tank, christened "Tank-Ex", has been flaunted by DRDO for the last four-five years, it now apparently feels confident enough to offer it to the Army. "Two Tank-Exs will be given to the Army soon for user-evaluation," say sources.

The Army, on its part, is of course sceptical, having endured the never-ending saga of Arjun, on which DRDO has spent well over Rs 350 crore in development costs alone.

But DRDO contends that Tank-Ex, which has only undergone "limited technical trials" till now, combines the "strengths" of Arjun and Russian-origin T-72 tanks.

Tank-Ex has been developed by integrating the modified low-silhouette chassis of the in-service T-72 tanks and the re-engineered turret of Arjun, with its weapon systems like the 120mm rifled gun.

Capable of attaining a maximum speed of 60 kmph, Tank-Ex weighs just about 47 tonnes, much less than Arjun at 58.5 tonnes and almost equal to the newly-inducted Russian T-90S main-battle tank at 46.5 tonnes.

That may well be true but induction of tanks and their subsequent upgradation projects have always been a source of worry for the Army, which urgently needs to upgrade the "speed and shock effect" of its mechanised forces

 

[Apocalypse]

Hey, im a new member here..

Indian media is always critical of any new military tech..

Anyway, the real use of any tanks nowadays will be in semi-urban and shock and awe style warfare.
Any information about the urban survivability of the Arjun Mk.II ?

 

[Waylander]

Do you really think this is the only use of tanks nowadays?

And with which vehicles do you want to proceed normal attacks and mobile defenses against mechanized forces?
Why is everybody so focused on urban warfare. Just because you see the pictures from Bagdad so often in TV?
This is not a normal war.
Before you come to the point were you have to fight in the cities you have to beat the enemy in the field.
Every opponent who is not totally inferior will try to fight an open engagement which gives him room to maneuver and protects its own civilians and urban infrastructure.

 

[Mr Brown]

While the Iraqi occupation has seen tanks used as shock weapons in attacking insurgent positions, I do not think the world has lost the possibility of tank v tank warfare. This may be small scale as happened during the invasion of Iraq, or if the US chooses to take out Syria or Iran in the future. Both of these nations have large numbers of tanks, be it that many are obselete. As Desert Storm showed the Warthogs and Apaches cannot get them all, in the end it often needed an Abrams or Challenger to do the job.

 

[Waylander]

Why to look so far away.
Pakistan and India are also very good examples for a theater were big scale mechanized formations could be thrown at each other.
Both should be not able to gain full air superiority with which they would be able to destroy most of the C3 and fortified positions or to seriously attack all enemy ground units on the march.
Both sides would be very happy to have many tanks on their side if this conflict ever again erupts in a big way.
I think the only nations which are able to abandon their tanks are the US. Not because tanks are not usefull anymore but because the rest of their forces is so good equipped.
But also the US claimed that such a fast and powerfull move right to bagdad in the last GW would have been much more difficult if not impossible without their heavy tank units.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys here is a link containing some information on the indian indigenously designed explosive reactive armour ,which is currently being used on the t-72 ajeya.they also mention the cost of a foreign era kit.

here check out this link:

http://www.drdo.org/pub/techfocus/feb04/explosive.htm

Salient Features

• Effectively reduces the penetration of warheads of modern ATGMs

• Immune to detonation against small arms ammunition and artillery shell fragments

• No sympathetic detonation of neighbouring panels when one panel explodes

• Minimum collateral damage

• The weight penalty is kept to the minimum about 1.5 ton per tank

• No initiation by arc welding or by accidental drops

• Tank mobility and manoeuvrability not compromisis

• Functions with equal efficiency even after deep fording by the tank

• Operational temperature ranges from 20 oC to +55 oC