India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

Wil the Arjun be better than the T-90?


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aaaditya

New Member
Archer said:
The biggest problem with the Arjun is its manufacturer, OFB- if it had been half as dedicated to its job like L&T or Tata who also work with DRDO on projects, the Arjun would be in mass production by now.
arjun's manufacturers are not ofb(ordinance factories board) which are goverment enterprises manufacturing arms ,ammunitions and infantry equipment utilizing indigenously developed technology(developed by drdo) or foreign technology.

arjun's manufacturers are the cvrde (combat vehicle research and development establishment) and the heavy vehicles factory.
 

Archer

New Member
parm said:
T90 anyday better then Arjun. first and most prominent is its boxy turret which makes it the easiest target tank in the world for anti tank missiles! all MBTs around the world are making smaller and slant shape turrets to deflect anti tank missiles and indian DRDO is using a 30 years old shape and design. no wonder it took them crores of rupees and 30 years to make a tank. and army refused to accept the tank after it failed trials!
Gawd, you are a complete ignoramus! "Boxy turret" allows the designers to field stacked armour arrays! The shape has nothing to do with the interior armour being modern or not, the last Arjun armour trials which it cleared were but a couple of years back! Anti tank missiles are not deflected by sloped turrets- the slope was for early gen FSAPDS, against modern AFSDS, too much slope can in fact cause the rod to burrow deeper into the armour! The Arjuns silhouette is in fact lower than the Abrams & other MBT's- its meant to be a heavy MBT, and hence its design reflects that, boxy turret indeed! If this is the depth of your claims I can only :lol3 !

The Arjun cleared all its trials! After that, the Army ordered 124 to be built at OFB. Currently each batch coming out the OFB is being tested in reliability trials, to ensure that the production process is proper and they match the PPS series tanks which were trialled!

At least learn something before opening your mouth!
 
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Archer

New Member
aaaditya said:
arjun's manufacturers are not ofb(ordinance factories board) which are goverment enterprises manufacturing arms ,ammunitions and infantry equipment utilizing indigenously developed technology(developed by drdo) or foreign technology.

arjun's manufacturers are the cvrde (combat vehicle research and development establishment) and the heavy vehicles factory.
Aditya,

Think before you leap! heavy vehicles factory IS PART OF THE OFB. Its HVF Avadhi, which comes under OFB. Its sister concern is OFB-Medak, in Andhra Pradesh. Of all of India's DPSU's - the OFB are the ones which have given a horrible name to DPSUs thanks to their horrible quality assurance (which causes entire batches of units to be wasted, and remanufactured till they meet IA criteria) and yearly, they reject entire batches at production itself. They are the manufacturers and hence have to cooperate with the DESIGNERS- which are CVRDE (DRDO), but they have not done HALF the job they should have. Larsen and Toubro are FAR better.

If you want to improve your posts, at least google for the correct information, check your facts AND then reply!
 

aaaditya

New Member
Archer said:
Aditya,

Think before you leap! heavy vehicles factory IS PART OF THE OFB. Its HVF Avadhi, which comes under OFB. Its sister concern is OFB-Medak, in Andhra Pradesh. Of all of India's DPSU's - the OFB are the ones which have given a horrible name to DPSUs thanks to their horrible quality assurance (which causes entire batches of units to be wasted, and remanufactured till they meet IA criteria) and yearly, they reject entire batches at production itself. They are the manufacturers and hence have to cooperate with the DESIGNERS- which are CVRDE (DRDO), but they have not done HALF the job they should have. Larsen and Toubro are FAR better.

If you want to improve your posts, at least google for the correct information, check your facts AND then reply!
actually hvf is a part of cvrde .ofb medak produces light vehicles ,the proposed plan to produce arjuns there has been dropped.
 

kams

New Member
In any case QC/QA at OFB factories suck big time. The unions and the commies in our govt. are screwing up all plans to get them streamlined. Did you read the commie comments on govt.'s decision to open up defence production to pvt. players? Man, they should be shot.:eek
 

Archer

New Member
aaaditya said:
actually hvf is a part of cvrde .ofb medak produces light vehicles ,the proposed plan to produce arjuns there has been dropped.

Cant you look it up before making such statements? CVRDE is a DRDO lab. HVF and OFB Medak are part of OFB. :rolleyes: :lol3
OFB Medak does not make "light vehicles"- it makes the BMP-2 and after being upgraded, is making Arjun subsystems as well, since HVF Avadhi is overloaded!
 

Archer

New Member
kams said:
In any case QC/QA at OFB factories suck big time. The unions and the commies in our govt. are screwing up all plans to get them streamlined. Did you read the commie comments on govt.'s decision to open up defence production to pvt. players? Man, they should be shot.:eek
Now Aditya will tell you that OFB is part of Norinco and Norinco is actually a Lockheed Martin factory!:lol3
 

aaaditya

New Member
Archer said:
Now Aditya will tell you that OFB is part of Norinco and Norinco is actually a Lockheed Martin factory!:lol3
medak manufactures a 14 seater mine proof vehicle.which is already in service with the paramillitary forces ,i dont know about the bmp2,but you will find the image of the medak mine proof vehicle in the bharat rakshak website.
 

MG 3

New Member
Arjun Shelved

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arjun Finally Cancelled, Really Cancelled

October 7, 2006: India has decided to relegate its Indian designed and built tank, the Arjun, to training duties, and will not put these tanks into mass production. Thus ends a three decade effort to create an Indian designed and built tank. The 35 Arjuns already built are too large (heavy and wide) for existing tank transporters. The Arjun is also considered too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they are adequate, so it's not a complete waste.

The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.

Six years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn't ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, currently the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.

Four years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.

Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude. The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times. Moreover, if it isn't incompetence screwing things up, then it's corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20061007.aspx

It had to happen sometime.
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
MG 3 said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arjun Finally Cancelled, Really Cancelled

October 7, 2006: India has decided to relegate its Indian designed and built tank, the Arjun, to training duties, and will not put these tanks into mass production. Thus ends a three decade effort to create an Indian designed and built tank. The 35 Arjuns already built are too large (heavy and wide) for existing tank transporters. The Arjun is also considered too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they are adequate, so it's not a complete waste.

The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.

Six years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn't ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, currently the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.

Four years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.

Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude. The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times. Moreover, if it isn't incompetence screwing things up, then it's corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20061007.aspx

It had to happen sometime.
False propaganda is how I would describe above post,specially when the link provided in itself is unreliable. here is a link that says Arjun project is up and running ,as I have repeatedly said before IA requirements are for a more lighter tank as of now and hence T-90's are being mass produced but Arjun and it's derivative Eklavya programmes are being pursued. ;)
 

MG 3

New Member
This is what they are saying on every forum. And come on ZEE news. It will only be used as a tainer or an ARV.
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
MG 3 said:
This is what they are saying on every forum. And come on ZEE news. It will only be used as a tainer or an ARV.
Wow so that is what you have got to substantiate your claims eh................... should have done much better. Tell me where do forums come up with all the info ? eventually they have to refer to news channels or websites for up to date info before they can make any claims.Now the link which you furbished looks like a stub(for there aint any reference website and also no name of the poster).Zee is far more credible than that startegy page moreover take some trouble to scroll down the page the news is from a Bureau Report that is a source of info to all leading national dailies and I guess one would have to believe them until and unless you have something different from the likes of rueters.
 

webmaster

Troll Hunter
Staff member
MG 3 said:
This is what they are saying on every forum. And come on ZEE news. It will only be used as a tainer or an ARV.
Thread merged!

As far as Arjun is concerned, it seems to be still in the game:

Fighter Jets and Tanks for Indian Military
India will acquire 126 multi-role combat jets for the air force and 124 main battle tanks for the army by 2009, Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said in Chandigarh on Tuesday. Read More...
 

aaaditya

New Member
the latest news on the arjun is that it has cleared it's trials and has now been equipped with a new 1500 hp engine which is to replace the 1400 hp engine.
 

aaaditya

New Member
well here is a latest news article in which the indian minister of state for defence states that the arjun programme is still on track and that the tanks were extensively tested by the indian army and found satisfactory.

here check out this link:

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/Fighter_Jets_and_Tanks_for_Indian_Military_20061011.php

124 tanks, 126 jets to be acquired by 2009: Minister Chandigarh, Oct 10: India will acquire 126 multi-role combat jets for the Air Force and 124 main battle tanks for the Army by 2009, Minister of state for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh said here today.

The letters of intent for the fighters have already been received from US, French, Swedish and British companies and it will take a few months for the request for proposals to be issued, Singh told a meet-the-press programme here.

"We will induct the fighters in phases," he said, adding the Indian Air Force's ageing Mig-21s are scheduled to be phased out by 2011.

He said the 66 Hawk advanced jet trainers purchased from Britain's BAE systems would soon begin arriving.

Five Arjun MBTS were recently given to the army and they had been thoroughly tested and found satisfactory.

Singh, who recently reviewed the production status of the MBT, said the cost of producing each tank in ordnance factories worked out to Rs 17 crore.

He also said that production of anti-material rifles had started in an ordnance factory at Trichi. "The state-of-the-art rifle can use 13.5 mm and 20 mm bullets," he said.

To a question, Singh said the Defence procurement policy introduces increased levels of transparency and accountability in the arms purchase process.




the gun which he mentions is an anti-material rifle named as vidhwanshak(destructive) based on the south african mechem ntw-20 design,this gun is modular and can be easily modified to fire the 12.7mm,14.5mm and 20mm rounds to destroy soft protected targets ,lightly armoured vehicles etc at a long distance(1.5-2 kms).
 
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vijayshimla

New Member
Arjun MBT

News of cancellation of Arjun Project has hit one with almost mortal impact- The tragedy of the whole story is that this beautiful machine could have been made to work & to fight, has it not been for total lack of management by the Babus who rule the roost in Indian defense production. The total lack of coherence- inaptitude of the Non-professional people managing a national project of magnitude of a National Tank has been killed- bringing National shame to us Indians.
 

n21

New Member
MG 3 said:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Arjun Finally Cancelled, Really Cancelled

October 7, 2006: India has decided to relegate its Indian designed and built tank, the Arjun, to training duties, and will not put these tanks into mass production. Thus ends a three decade effort to create an Indian designed and built tank. The 35 Arjuns already built are too large (heavy and wide) for existing tank transporters. The Arjun is also considered too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they are adequate, so it's not a complete waste.

The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.

Six years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn't ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, currently the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.

Four years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.

Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude. The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times. Moreover, if it isn't incompetence screwing things up, then it's corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20061007.aspx

It had to happen sometime.

2/3 of the component of Arjun are interchangable with T-72.???
Where did he get this news :eek:nfloorl:

I guess the reporter apparently "heard" this from the tea shop guy outside the production facility...:eek:nfloorl:

So according to him,T-72 has a german engine,indian gun ,fcs and armor. Is that 2/3 already or did I miss that T-72 also has a BMS!
 
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aaaditya

New Member
hey guys does anyone have any further information on the arjun's 1500 hp engine?

i believe that the arjun programme can benefit greatly from the indo-german defence technology cooperation agreement,germans can offer the arjun project several technological boosts such as the europack 1500hp engine considered to be one of the best tank engines in the world and the l55 gun considered to be one of the most powerfull 120mm smooth bore guns in the world.
 

DragonKing786

New Member
n21 said:
2/3 of the component of Arjun are interchangable with T-72.???
Where did he get this news :eek:nfloorl:

I guess the reporter apparently "heard" this from the tea shop guy outside the production facility...:eek:nfloorl:

So according to him,T-72 has a german engine,indian gun ,fcs and armor. Is that 2/3 already or did I miss that T-72 also has a BMS!


Well from the article it says 125 or so more tanks will be given to the army along with jets to air force, but it doesn't specify what tank ^^ either russian or Arjun...so let's not start arguing yet :)
 
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