India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[chinawhite]

The wagons are already built. here is a pic of them.

If you followed the discussion it was about the reason the arjun had problems with transportation.

The Arjun FCS is superb & quite modern

Please requote me, since i dont have a clue what your trying to convey to me

 

[Archer]

of course, but platform relevancy and success always has to be considered in a contemporary prism of analysis.

Requirements change & so do threat perceptions. The Arjun is relevant, but its certainly overkill & the IA is unwilling to invest in that ability given the cost constraints it has. A 100 Arjuns can give you twice the number of T90S's, which are quite capable of killing Al Khalids & T-80s as well.

Cold Start has very little to do with an issue of absolute numbers - its a doctrine philosophy - and its a combined arms issue legacied on the Gulf War 1 event. Arjun may very well be part of that base doctrine due to geographical issues anyway.

Cold Start relies on adequate numbers of quickly deployable MBTs- which are fit to a T by the newly acquired T-90Ss and the upgraded T-72's. The Arjun numbers are being built up gradually & hence it is not likely to be part of a Cold Start unit just yet. Though you are quite correct in noting that this is not 100% certain and plus time can always see the Arjun forward deployed once production stabilizes and adequate numbers are produced. Lastly, Cold Start has little to do with GW-1, but everything to do with reaction time (Pakistans) and giving the Indian side the ability to pre-empt Pakistans corresponding build up.

From my readings of how this project has evolved, its fundamental flaws are due to prog management issues rather than technological limitations. The former is critical in any development prog. Get it wrong and everything suffers

Sorry, but you would be mistaken here to some degree- the program management issues were definitely there, but the technological challenge has played a huge role in its delay and cost over-run. The design is extremely ambitious, vis a vis its contemporaries (eg Chinese tanks) with a similar national industrial base. These combined with India specific constraints- ie funding limitations - meant that the program managers were often stuck with a limited series of options, even if they were increasingly unviable- eg the reliance on a Delft FCS when the company could not hold up its end of the bargain till almost six-seven years thence! Forex restrictions meant that the developers could not choose another partner, and techological challenges (full fire on the move requirements with sight stabilisation, high Pk%) meant that simpler solutions were not suitable.

 

[Archer]

Please requote me, since i dont have a clue what your trying to convey to me

It was your contention in an earlier post that the Arjun FCS was obscolescent. I was merely pointing out that it is anything but.

 

[MG 3]

the question is that how protected is it against the pakistani anit tank systems.
1- Baktar Shikan(ATGM)
2- MILAN
3- TWO 1&2
4- al-khalids 125mm using DU munitions

 

[kams]

If you followed the discussion it was about the reason the arjun had problems with transportation.



Please requote me, since i dont have a clue what your trying to convey to me

I have followed the discussion very well and i was refering to your own post saying that transportation issue of Arjun is with the wagons and not Rails and 3 wagons are being built. I merely wanted to to update you that wagons have been built.

 

[kams]

the question is that how protected is it against the pakistani anit tank systems.
1- Baktar Shikan(ATGM)
2- MILAN
3- TWO 1&2
4- al-khalids 125mm using DU munitions

We will never know (Atleast I hope we will never have to know) untill we see them in actual battle scenario. Arjun is equipped with Kanchan Composite armour and ERA.

I am not an expert on Tank warfare, but if I understand the current doctrine, its first shot to hit probability which gives the edge to a tank. This along with
net work centric warfare (better situation awareness) will determine who will win the battle.

 

[Archer]

the question is that how protected is it against the pakistani anit tank systems.
1- Baktar Shikan(ATGM)
2- MILAN
3- TWO 1&2
4- al-khalids 125mm using DU munitions

Its frontal arc is proof against any of these anti-tank munitions. I would not be exaggerating in saying that the Arjun is the most heavily armoured MBT in Indian service, even considering the T90S.

Kams,

You are wrong, the Arjun does not have ERA- nor does it need it. Lastly the Arjuns has been trialled against the best ATGM's/ munitions available to India, which were/ are superior to what Pakistan fields.

 

[ahussains]

Ohhhh Again ARJUN a project which is under devlopment form last 30 years or so and in early 2000 india decide to purchase some 300 or T 90's from russia and they are still spending in ARJUN pleas wind it up it can't work for it has some design faults and access weight, can't hit targets accuratly when it was moving have some engine problem like over heated in the Ragistan Desert when temprature is around 45 to 50 0C.

 

[n21]

Ohhhh Again ARJUN a project which is under devlopment form last 30 years or so and in early 2000 india decide to purchase some 300 or T 90's from russia and they are still spending in ARJUN pleas wind it up it can't work for it has some design faults and access weight, can't hit targets accuratly when it was moving have some engine problem like over heated in the Ragistan Desert when temprature is around 45 to 50 0C.

These listed problems was part of the intial batch of the Arjun's that was developed.Currently these have been resloved to a large extend. Now the delay in the induction has to do with the backlog in production.Production units are more concentrated on the T-90 build up rather than Arjun.
Add to this the technical complexity has led to drop in the production quality and further delays.
India has to take up "over-ambitious" project bcoz we have missed a generation of development whetever it is tanks or aircrafts.
There is no point in following the so called text book development..2nd gen,then 3 gen, then 4th gen etc!

 

[kams]

As per Indias Defence Minister, Arjun has atlast cleared all problems and production has started.

Link -

CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE FOR DEFENCE MEETS Arjun Production

The Defence Minister said that the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle - Nishant and Pilot-less Target Aircraft - Lakshya have been ordered by our Armed Forces. Army have evaluated the Main Battle Tank (MBT) Arjun and cleared it. “Production hiccups have been overcome and first lot of production is in progress”, Shri Mukherjee said.

I stand corrected on Arjun not having ERA. Intrestingly Arjun has many systems to protect the crew, giving them very high chance of escaping even when the tank is hit critically. Arjun also has Battlefield Management System. I am sure they may come across some minor problems which will be resolved during the course of production.

I came across a site saying Arjun has Elbit's Active Area Defence System. Can any one confirm this?

 

[aaaditya]

Its frontal arc is proof against any of these anti-tank munitions. I would not be exaggerating in saying that the Arjun is the most heavily armoured MBT in Indian service, even considering the T90S.

Kams,

You are wrong, the Arjun does not have ERA- nor does it need it. Lastly the Arjuns has been trialled against the best ATGM's/ munitions available to India, which were/ are superior to what Pakistan fields.

actually you are wrong arjun,uses the indigenously designed kanchan era armour.

 

[kams]

actually you are wrong arjun,uses the indigenously designed kanchan era armour.

aaaditya, kanchan is not ERA. its composite armour.

 

[Archer]

actually you are wrong arjun,uses the indigenously designed kanchan era armour.

Are you even aware what the letters E & R in ERA mean?

As per Indias Defence Minister, Arjun has atlast cleared all problems and production has started.

Link -

CONSULTATIVE COMMITTEE FOR DEFENCE MEETS Arjun Production



I stand corrected on Arjun not having ERA. Intrestingly Arjun has many systems to protect the crew, giving them very high chance of escaping even when the tank is hit critically. Arjun also has Battlefield Management System. I am sure they may come across some minor problems which will be resolved during the course of production.

I came across a site saying Arjun has Elbit's Active Area Defence System. Can any one confirm this?

Gentlemen,

Arjun is currently in the stage of checking out build quality at OFB. There will be minor design fixes and rectifications. Each of these will send the Pakistanis on the WWW into a paroxysm of glee and wanking around- but please do realize that these are not at all unusual for a program of this nature.

The IA wants a *perfect* build batch, this in contrast to telescopic induction as done on the Chally 1 series or even the Merkava where different blocks were produced even in batch 1 and fixes were applied in the field. This approach by the IA, will lead to a longer induction process. Its to be expected.

But at the end of the day, India would have gained a tank design & manufacturing ability, that in conjunction with the T90S series- and that is a big plus for India.

 

[chinawhite]

It was your contention in an earlier post that the Arjun FCS was obscolescent.

I cant remember that actual conversation but from memory it was a direct comaprision to the al kalid FCS which i mentioned has a BMS system which is a major advantage over the arjun tank without a BMS system

I merely wanted to to update you that wagons have been built.

I felt like i was being spoken to my the teacher. Anyway, no quams about that.

 

[MG 3]

Its frontal arc is proof against any of these anti-tank munitions. I would not be exaggerating in saying that the Arjun is the most heavily armoured MBT in Indian service, even considering the T90S.

Kams,

You are wrong, the Arjun does not have ERA- nor does it need it. Lastly the Arjuns has been trialled against the best ATGM's/ munitions available to India, which were/ are superior to what Pakistan fields.

well if indias ATGM's are better than that of Pakistan then that means that their munitions are better than that of the US. cause we get the same TOW missiles and there is also news here that javlins might also be in the pipeline. Let us not forget that in the opemn plains of southern punjab ATGM,s are at an advantage since they have a greater range. it is also known that pakistan is fitting its AH-1 S & F's with helfires.

you see what i mean to say is that its not arjuns fault but tank busting tech is too much for any tank to handle. since i have had the oppertunity to see cobras and the baktar shikan in action, things are looking bleak for tanks on both sides.

 

[kams]

I cant remember that actual conversation but from memory it was a direct comaprision to the al kalid FCS which i mentioned has a BMS system which is a major advantage over the arjun tank without a BMS system



I felt like i was being spoken to my the teacher. Anyway, no quams about that.

Chinawhite Arjun does have BMS.

Founf some pictures of Arjun on the net. I am attaching the same. Please note that the inside pics of Arjun are from Autocar magazine.

 

[n21]

well if indias ATGM's are better than that of Pakistan then that means that their munitions are better than that of the US. cause we get the same TOW missiles and there is also news here that javlins might also be in the pipeline. Let us not forget that in the opemn plains of southern punjab ATGM,s are at an advantage since they have a greater range. it is also known that pakistan is fitting its AH-1 S & F's with helfires.

It is an interesting point to note that all these ATGM's(Tow,Hellfire) are American orgin and Israel was heavily invovled in the later part of the development.. Just wondering won't Israel would given a tip or two for armor protection against these

 

[Bfn42]

I may have misread your post, but if I read it right, then your way off. I seriously doubt an Arjun would be protected against a TOW2B/Hellfire/Jav

 

[aaaditya]

Are you even aware what the letters E & R in ERA mean?

era stands for explosive reactive armour,these are nothing but explosive materials arranged in layers along with metal armour(or in between the layers of metal),so that when a missile hits the armour,the explosion and the resulting energy is deflected outwards ,thus minimising the effects of the impact on the battle tank.

 

[Archer]

I may have misread your post, but if I read it right, then your way off. I seriously doubt an Arjun would be protected against a TOW2B/Hellfire/Jav

Right now, no tank - bar possibly the Merkava 4 can possibly stand against top attack ATGMs -ie TOW2B/ Jav, or for that matter a Hellfire, properly directed can mission kill any tank out there..

era stands for explosive reactive armour,these are nothing but explosive materials arranged in layers along with metal armour(or in between the layers of metal),so that when a missile hits the armour,the explosion and the resulting energy is deflected outwards ,thus minimising the effects of the impact on the battle tank.

Excellent. Now can you please tell me where the ERA is, on the Arjun?:

well if indias ATGM's are better than that of Pakistan then that means that their munitions are better than that of the US. cause we get the same TOW missiles and there is also news here that javlins might also be in the pipeline. Let us not forget that in the opemn plains of southern punjab ATGM,s are at an advantage since they have a greater range. it is also known that pakistan is fitting its AH-1 S & F's with helfires.

You are incorrect here.
Pakistan has the TOW 2, TOW 2A, Milan 2, HOT, Bakhtar Shikan (Norinco Red Arrow) ATGMs.

India fields & manufactures the Milan 2, (with 2T on the way), Konkurs, Konkurs-M, Faggot/Sagger (being phased out), Kornet, Refleks, and soon the LAHAT.

As you can see, India has better ATGM's across the board- the latest tandem warhead equipped ones, & those that are in current production elsewhere & being manufactured locally.

The latest plans are to codevelop/manufacture a follow on to the Milan, the "INDAN" as well as begin license production of the Kornet & Milan 2T ATGMS (which will eventually be replaced by the INDAN).

Lastly, when did Pakistan get Hellfires? Pakistan is actually retrofitting its Bakhtar Shikans (and presumably the TOW2A's) to its Cobras.

The former are not an issue for an Arjun frontally. The Hellfire- I'd hold off before I know its RHAe penetration, but top attack- any tank would suffer a probable mission kill if not an outright loss.

Anyways, Cobras and PA aviation are a job for the IAF, and the IA's Tunguska AD systems. Quite a few of which are already in service.

I cant remember that actual conversation but from memory it was a direct comaprision to the al kalid FCS which i mentioned has a BMS system which is a major advantage over the arjun tank without a BMS system

That comparison would be incorrect- because the Arjun FCS is interconnected to a BMS.