I pointed those things out in a previous post. A state of the art heavy tank can take a state of the art lighter tank anyday. Of course that's just standard outfit, lets not include missiles and what not. Besides, the Arjun doesn't have high tech optics or fire control. And theres nothing ingenious about it's gun system.Pathfinder-X said:Several important factors come into play. Optics, fire control system, material composition of armor, muzzle velocity of the main gun. Sheer weight isn't going to cut it.
arjun was initially equipped with bel fire control system which satisfied the army.later it was equipped with french fcs and failed in its tests.arjun is expected to cost around 4-5 million dollars while abrahms and other western tanks will cost as much.Defcon 6 said:I pointed those things out in a previous post. A state of the art heavy tank can take a state of the art lighter tank anyday. Of course that's just standard outfit, lets not include missiles and what not. Besides, the Arjun doesn't have high tech optics or fire control. And theres nothing ingenious about it's gun system.
M1A2 vs. LeClerc MBT? M1A2 hands down.
india is already working on the tank ex which is a derivative of arjun and t-72-90 series(arjun's turret and gun mated with the t72 chasis),initially it was tested with a 1000hp engine but now it is being re-engined with a higher powered engined,this tank weighs around 47-48 tons and utilises the arjun's kanchan armour(indian army is reportedly very pleased with this armour).Defcon 6 said:Might cost the same but that doesn't mean it's up to par. I think India should either keep using the T-90S or switch to the Leopard 2 or M1A2. The Arjun is just a bad design. If India wants to design their own tank, I think they need to start over. The Arjun is a mistake, so the Indian government needs to redesign it from scratch. The armor doesn't look very well designed either. It's all far too simplistic. Very boxy. It's kind of like a box on treads, with a box ontop that has a gun sticking out. Modern tanks usually try to have rounded surfaces and curverture, along with a low silouhette. The Arjun sticks out like a sore thumb. I think a good idea for India would be for them to see if they could buy the Black Eagle (Chiorny Oriol) protoype from Russia and build it for themselves with a few modifications. That would be a great idea.
the arjun was tested with a french fire control system,there is an indigenous fire control system developed by bharat electronics limited,with whioch arjun was initially tested and was accepted,but the army wanted the french system as it is employe on the t90(t90 also suffered problems initially) but these were rectified.fieldmarshal said:Arjun tanks’ tech troubles continue
From Rahul Bedi DH News Service New Delhi:
Link http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/sep232005/national1734362005922.asp
From september 2005 but still gives us the real low down on the indian tank.
Three decades after the project was launched the tank’s future in the army still hangs in the balance.
India’s trouble-ridden Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has run into yet another round of technological problems as several of its crucial systems, including its engine, failed during recent trials in Rajasthan, over three decades after the project was launched.
“Certain systems (of Arjun) have not met acceptance criteria during preparatory trials,†Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee admitted in parliament recently, adding that these were being rectified.
Mr Mukherjee said more “ruggedisation†was being introduced in Arjun to enable it to withstand abnormal peak temperatures in the desert, one of the areas where it is likely to be eventually deployed.
Official sources said the first lot of five Arjun tanks handed over to the army last August faced problems during two months of trials that began in July, not only with the fire control system, suspension and main gunners sight but also with its German MTU 838 Ka-510 1400 hp diesel engine that “seized†during manoeuvres in temperatures averaging between 55-60 degrees Celsius.
The five undergoing trials of Arjun are the first batch of 124 units sanctioned to be built at the heavy vehicles factory (HVF) at Avadi near Chennai.
Army headquarters declined to comment on Arjun’s shortcomings, but Chief of Army Staff General J J Singh told Jane’s Defence Weekly of the UK in an interview in July that the MBT’s “future would be decided after summer trialsâ€.
Anticipating recurring technological problems and cost overruns with Arjun, the army imported 310 Russian T 90 S MBT’s in February 2001 for over $700 million and is to begin their licensed production at HVF next year.
Military sources said nearly two-thirds of Arjun’s components like its power pack, FCS and gun control system were imported while its weight of 61.5 tons had led to repeated transmission failures during earlier trials before the stipulated life of 6,000 km and the overheating and engine de-rating problems persisted.
Import dependency
Imported systems had significantly hiked the MBT’s price estimated at between Rs 150-Rs 160 million ($3.3 - 3.5 million) per piece. The Defence Research and Development Organisation has repeatedly said it hoped to reduce Arjun’s import dependency to around 20 per cent, but armoured corps officers said this would be “near impossible†to achieve as the agency simply had neither the technological capability nor the incentive to develop critical systems locally.
“Arjun’s excessive weight and low mission reliability makes the MBT an operational liability†a senior armoured corps officer said, declining to be named. Its weight also required building special railway wagons and transporters and replacing many of the bridges in forward areas bordering Pakistan, where Arjun would be positioned.
“The biggest problem is of the production agencies. There is little quality control, and the general level of engineering is extremely poor†former chief of army staff Gen Shankar Roychowdhury, a former tank commander declared.
Your orignal question was, the standing of arjun amongst tanks, so the article i posted yesterday answers that!!aaaditya said:the arjun was tested with a french fire control system,there is an indigenous fire control system developed by bharat electronics limited,with whioch arjun was initially tested and was accepted,but the army wanted the french system as it is employe on the t90(t90 also suffered problems initially) but these were rectified.
as far as the engine is concerned,yes it is the biggest problem,the reason is that an indigenous engine project to develop a 1500hp engine by ashok leyland failed and has been abandoned however several of arjun systems have been proven and are currently being tetsed on the tank x.
these include the bharat electronics limited fire control system,nbc pack,120mm main gun and the kanchan armour,the tankx has the interior ergonimally designed on the basis of arjun with blow off panels,without autoloader and with a four man crew.
the only problem of the tankx is that its engine is currently underpowered(750hp) hence they are currently integrating a new engine derived from the t90 project(1000 hp thrust).
so even if the arjun dies the tankx has a chance to live.
all the systems being used on the tank x are indigenous the fire control system,the turret ,the main gun,the ergonomics,and most importantly the armour.so arjun has provided atleast some systems of which the army is confident.fieldmarshal said:Your orignal question was, the standing of arjun amongst tanks, so the article i posted yesterday answers that!!
Now with arjun india wants to reinvent the wheel, we have no problem with that.
With all the foreign components in the final product arjun is not even close to being indegenious. India can go on saying that ur trying to develop this n that but it is the finish product that matters. But i guess thirty + years n millions if not billions later you still dont get it do you ( with all due respect).
Most of you are comparing two different MBT's made for different Roles ina Battelfield.Pathfinder-X said:i heard there r lots of problems wif Arjun, engines heats too fast and consume way too much fuel. gun stablizers not working too well, and overweight.
maybe indian fix those problems on the improved arjun
Pardon my ignonace but when DRDO was given the job of designing a new tank it was meant to replace all current tanks in the indian inventory and start production in 1984. But as the story goes it was delayed and delayed further.d_berwal said:where as Arjun is being inducted in a new role alltogether as is not replacing any of the older series MBT's.
Actually a MBT is a general tank. While the reference to light and heavy tanks are used by arm chair generals in the games they make.Arjun is a Heavy MBT ( all of you so called MBT experts in this forum should know the basic difference between light vs Medium vs Heavy MBT).
Has any one seen any India T90s with Shtora or Arena.T-90 also uses active protection. Being quoted in a few articles the T-90 has the worlds highest RHA protection with Kontakt-5 and the original russian armour. Has active protection in the form of the Arena and Shtora self-defense systems.
Tell me why would some one invest in 1000+ brand new MBT's over a 5-7yr timescale to put in place a stop-gap arrangement.The T-90 was brought as a stop-gap to the pakistani purchase of the T-80U. What is the role of the arjun, Infantry support?. What i am saying is that the indians are investing money into their doctime of cold start instead of hot start which the Arjun has no place.
Has any one seen any India T90s with Shtora or Arena.T-90 also uses active protection. Being quoted in a few articles the T-90 has the worlds highest RHA protection with Kontakt-5 and the original russian armour. Has active protection in the form of the Arena and Shtora self-defense systems.
Tell me why would some one invest in 1000+ brand new MBT's over a 5-7yr timescale to put in place a stop-gap arrangement.The T-90 was brought as a stop-gap to the pakistani purchase of the T-80U. What is the role of the arjun, Infantry support?. What i am saying is that the indians are investing money into their doctime of cold start instead of hot start which the Arjun has no place.
http://armor.kiev.ua/fofanov/Tanks/TRIALS/19991020.html-90 has the worlds highest RHA protection with Kontakt-5 and the original russian armour. Has active protection in the form of the Arena and Shtora self-defense systems.
Aren't we comparing the T-90 to the arjun?. Im not comparing the indian version to the arjun but the actual tanks like the title suggestd_berwal said:Has any one seen any India T90s with Shtora or Arena.
1000?. The number from all my sources state 310 with a possible 100+?(and the possible batch is only stated by some sources)Tell me why would some one invest in 1000+ brand new MBT's over a 5-7yr timescale to put in place a stop-gap arrangement.
didnt the T90 come with a TOT.. i would be quite surprized if it hasnt.chinawhite said:Aren't we comparing the T-90 to the arjun?. Im not comparing the indian version to the arjun but the actual tanks like the title suggest
But isn't the rhino program going to be fitted with the arena system?. I am pretty sure its getting the system even if its from forum chit chat.
But if we leave the Arena system out of the eqution the T-90 is still a superior tank and a superior tank for the cold start doctrime. In my opinion the arjun does have the speed to keep out with the fast manuvers but it will but a drain on resources that could be used for more T-90s.
Its a fuel gazzler. Its cruising range is 120miles(200km) compared to the T-90s range of 550-650km range. Im not sure if th T-90 is crusing range or not but as you can see the T-90 is a lot more superior in range.
The Arjun has three specially constructed carriages for its own movement. Its not logistically similar to the rest of the indian tank fleet. It has to be moved on these carriages or it cant altogether. While compared to the T-90 which is basically a upgraded T-72 so it is similar or exact dimensions and shares the same carriages.
The T-90 being a upgraded T-72 shares the T-72s low mantainace. I would suspect that it will be less maintanice heavy than the arjun which looks like it needs more maintaince. How much work hours per KM does each tank require?
1000?. The number from all my sources state 310 with a possible 100+?(and the possible batch is only stated by some sources)
And yes 310 out of the entire indian tank fleet of 2800/310 is a stop gap as one would say. Just so india had some way to counter the T-80UD and before the arjun program was going to take off and replace the bulk of the indian tanks. which does not seem to be happening
At the time was the T-72 was indias most modern tank whcih had not had any upgrades and the Arjun was still in the prototype stage with a large amount of its content foreign made. The russians signed a agreement with the indians to give 124 alreayd made tanks with the rest of the agreement number being made from kits in india. So any possible conflict with pakistan would have left the indians with a disadvantage in armour. So naturally india wanted some way to counter it and it went with the russian offer of the T-90 which bet the T-80 in trials with russia
Indias main tank project now is the Rhino project to upgrades indias T-72s to the T-90 standard or even the DRDO project to fit the arjun turnet onto the T-72 hull. The T-90 is being used as a fast strike group with some more T-72 regiments being upgraded and being formed into other groups. I wouldn't think india will be buying more T-90s but if you link me to s story than i will be more than happy to take that back. But as of now the indians are more focused on the T-72 upgrades and a possible Arjun II. Buying more T-90s would leave the indians will a modern but aging tank(because it is bacislly a upgrade of the T-72)
So the end result is a stop gap
Its Transfer of Technology ToTchinawhite said:Whats a TOT?. Sometimes i have trouble understanding some abbreviations
according to the bharat rakshak arjun has a range of 450kms which is very much comparable to the abrahms,the main problem with arjun is the engine,the rest are all ok.chinawhite said:Aren't we comparing the T-90 to the arjun?. Im not comparing the indian version to the arjun but the actual tanks like the title suggest
But isn't the rhino program going to be fitted with the arena system?. I am pretty sure its getting the system even if its from forum chit chat.
But if we leave the Arena system out of the eqution the T-90 is still a superior tank and a superior tank for the cold start doctrime. In my opinion the arjun does have the speed to keep out with the fast manuvers but it will but a drain on resources that could be used for more T-90s.
Its a fuel gazzler. Its cruising range is 120miles(200km) compared to the T-90s range of 550-650km range. Im not sure if th T-90 is crusing range or not but as you can see the T-90 is a lot more superior in range.
The Arjun has three specially constructed carriages for its own movement. Its not logistically similar to the rest of the indian tank fleet. It has to be moved on these carriages or it cant altogether. While compared to the T-90 which is basically a upgraded T-72 so it is similar or exact dimensions and shares the same carriages.
The T-90 being a upgraded T-72 shares the T-72s low mantainace. I would suspect that it will be less maintanice heavy than the arjun which looks like it needs more maintaince. How much work hours per KM does each tank require?
1000?. The number from all my sources state 310 with a possible 100+?(and the possible batch is only stated by some sources)
And yes 310 out of the entire indian tank fleet of 2800/310 is a stop gap as one would say. Just so india had some way to counter the T-80UD and before the arjun program was going to take off and replace the bulk of the indian tanks. which does not seem to be happening
At the time was the T-72 was indias most modern tank whcih had not had any upgrades and the Arjun was still in the prototype stage with a large amount of its content foreign made. The russians signed a agreement with the indians to give 124 alreayd made tanks with the rest of the agreement number being made from kits in india. So any possible conflict with pakistan would have left the indians with a disadvantage in armour. So naturally india wanted some way to counter it and it went with the russian offer of the T-90 which bet the T-80 in trials with russia
Indias main tank project now is the Rhino project to upgrades indias T-72s to the T-90 standard or even the DRDO project to fit the arjun turnet onto the T-72 hull. The T-90 is being used as a fast strike group with some more T-72 regiments being upgraded and being formed into other groups. I wouldn't think india will be buying more T-90s but if you link me to s story than i will be more than happy to take that back. But as of now the indians are more focused on the T-72 upgrades and a possible Arjun II. Buying more T-90s would leave the indians will a modern but aging tank(because it is bacislly a upgrade of the T-72)
So the end result is a stop gap