India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[chinawhite]

russia wants to acquire 100000 units and has asked for technical info.

Really?

The closet mentioned i have seen is just showed interest not any figures in mind. Heres the article i am refering to
Russia evinces interest in Indian Army's 'Sathi'

 

[Temoor_A]

Arjun MBT program is still suffering from certain technical issues. And this Tank has yet to prove its "so called" superiority over Al-khalid MBT.

Unlike Arjun MBT, Al-Khalid MBT is not just an upgraded T-90 MBT but also has been thoroughly tested in desert regions of Pakistan. And the results are positive.

Plus Al-Khalid MBT has a large room for improvements and can fire Bakhtar Shikan Anti-Tank Missiles. So this is a formidable threat to Indian MBT's.

Also, India acquired T-90S MBT's from Russia for a purpose and that included its reliability.

And it is early to tell that whether Arjun MBT is better or not because it still has to prove its worth and overcome some technical problems that have not yet been resolved.

 

[aaaditya]

Arjun MBT program is still suffering from certain technical issues. And this Tank has yet to prove its "so called" superiority over Al-khalid MBT.

Unlike Arjun MBT, Al-Khalid MBT is not just an upgraded T-90 MBT but also has been thoroughly tested in desert regions of Pakistan. And the results are positive.

Plus Al-Khalid MBT has a large room for improvements and can fire Bakhtar Shikan Anti-Tank Missiles. So this is a formidable threat to Indian MBT's.

Also, India acquired T-90S MBT's from Russia for a purpose and that included its reliability.

And it is early to tell that whether Arjun MBT is better or not because it still has to prove its worth and overcome some technical problems that have not yet been resolved.

arjun is based in terms of design on the german leapord series of tanks which it clearly resembles,arjun tanks have already been inducted(124 tanks in two tank regiments),arjun fires the israeli lahat missile which has a range of 6-8kms as opposed to the bakhtar shikan's 4 kms,lahat is the standard missile of both arjun and merkava-4,lahat stands for laser homing anti tank missile.

so buddy get your facts right.

 

[pshamim]

arjun is based in terms of design on the german leapord series of tanks which it clearly resembles,arjun tanks have already been inducted(124 tanks in two tank regiments),arjun fires the israeli lahat missile which has a range of 6-8kms as opposed to the bakhtar shikan's 4 kms,lahat is the standard missile of both arjun and merkava-4,lahat stands for laser homing anti tank missile.

so buddy get your facts right.

Aaaditya,
I do not wish to compare Arjun and Al-Khalid. But reading your statement above, I will like you to defend Arjun in light of the following article in Rediff. As you know Rediff is Indian site and not communist oriented as Frontline is according to you. BTW article also mentions the 124 inducted tanks mentioned by you.

'DRDO took up Arjun before it learnt to make tanks'
George Iype
Some 20 years ago, the defence ministry entrusted the DRDO with two projects: the development of a battle tank and a multi-barrel rocket launcher system.
The DRDO called the former, assigned to it in 1974, Arjun, and the latter Pinaka.
Two-plus decades later, the Arjun is considered a major failure. And so is the Pinaka. The Indian army found the latter passed only seven of its 29 requirements.
Defence experts allege that DRDO continues to work on Arjun and Pinaka just to keep its laboratories open.
"The Arjun main battle tank is not world class and has failed to meet the required levels of accuracy. But DRDO is keeping it alive because it does not want its factories to close down," says Major General (retd) Ashok Mehta.
Experts like Major General Mehta feel the Arjun could have been a tank with potential if DRDO had got its act together. But the premier defence research organisation continues to exert pressure on the army to accept a limited series of production for the Arjun.
Army officers say it is politics and not the tank's potential that is at work in the defence ministry, which last year placed orders with the Avadi Ordinance Factory to manufacture 124 Arjun tanks.
"I am happy to inform you that not only is the army satisfied with the Arjun tank's performance, but it has placed an order for 124 more such tanks," Defence Minister George Fernandes had told Parliament. "With this India has achieved the capability for indigenous manufacture of battle tanks."
Army officials, however, say no other defence agency in the world must have spent 25 years and Rs 3.5 billion on developing a tank that has failed to perform.
"We have wasted money and time in producing a tank that is just not a world class product these days," an army officer in Hyderabad says.
Insiders say the army was not "satisfied with the Arjun's performance" as Fernandes claimed, but was coerced to accept it by the DRDO.
N K Mohan Pillai, a retired army officer who witnessed the Arjun trials, says the tank lacked three vital strengths. First, its engine is weak. Second, its suspension needs permanent maintenance. Third, its gun control is not accurate enough to obtain first round kill probability.
"In fact, the main problem was that DRDO took up the Arjun project before learning how to make tanks," Pillai remarks.
In 1994 when DRDO announced that the Arjun tank was ready for production, then army chief General B C Joshi witnessed the trials. He sent a note to the DRDO and the defence minister saying the tank fails to meet standards and therefore was unacceptable. General Joshi then laid down a dozen imperatives that DRDO should take to improve upon the tank.
General Joshi's main concerns were that the tank that weighs 57 tonnes lacked armour protection and vital suspension for crew comfort and gunfire accuracy.
But DRDO, which has showcased the Arjun as its finest indigenous product, claims that the problem is not with the tank, but with the army.
"The army is used to handling only T-72 tanks. For the soldiers who have fired T-72 tanks, operating the Arjun is a gigantic task. So we have told the army to train their crew before accusing us of inferior production," a DRDO engineer says.
Despite DRDO's claims, many in the army believe that the 124 Arjun tanks will drain the exchequer just like the multi-barrel rocket launching system Pinaka did.
In 1999 the Comptroller and Auditor General severely indicted DRDO for its failure to develop critical components for Pinaka after spending Rs 424.5 million on the project.
The defence ministry had entrusted DRDO with the Pinaka project in 1980. The deadline given was 1994. Twenty years later DRDO is nowhere near finishing. The war heads and all the three vehicles necessary for launching the rockets are yet to be developed by DRDO. Against the requirement of eight types of warheads, only three have been developed. Of this, one is not acceptable to the army and the other is only a dummy.
"The delay in the development of the EWPinaka has compelled the army to depend on our existing 20 kilometre-range system even during Kargil conflict. The DRDO is entirely responsible for this," charges an army officer.
According to experts, the Pinaka system has met just seven of the 29 requirements of the army during trials. The indigenous rocket launcher lacks the promised range, fire power, loading time of the salvo and deployment time. These, however, are "minor problems" according to DRDO

.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/mar/15drdo.htm

 

[d_berwal]

the rediff article u mentioned is of 2000 today is 2006... plsget your facts right

today pinika is serving indian army pls dont post a deced old article..

most of the article on preformance of arjun are pre 2001 ...

 

[pshamim]

the rediff article u mentioned is of 2000 today is 2006... plsget your facts right

today pinika is serving indian army pls dont post a deced old article..

most of the article on preformance of arjun are pre 2001 ...

I am really grateful to you for pointing out that the article I posted is dated 2000. As you can see that it mentions the induction of 124 Arjuns. Aaditya mentions the same number of Arjuns in Indian Army in 2006.

Will you kindly explain why not a single Arjun has been added to these 124 in the last 6 years despite having the advanced capabilities as stated by Aaditya.

 

[Temoor_A]

the rediff article u mentioned is of 2000 today is 2006... plsget your facts right

today pinika is serving indian army pls dont post a deced old article..

most of the article on preformance of arjun are pre 2001 ...

And can you provide some sources to validate your claims?

Plus, show some latest PIC's of that MBT in action!

Also, show us some details about how Arjun stacks up against your T-90 MBT's.

 

[dabrownguy]

5 tanks have been handed over to the Army. So now in June they plan to throw the T-90 against it on the desert sand? Great logic.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040808/ind1.jpg
the tank being handed over to the army
http://www.hindu.com/2004/08/08/images/2004080807640801.jpg
http://www.webulagam.com/news/national/0408/07/images/img1040807007_1_2.gif

 

[pshamim]

5 tanks have been handed over to the Army. So now in June they plan to throw the T-90 against it on the desert sand? Great logic.
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040808/ind1.jpg
the tank being handed over to the army
http://www.hindu.com/2004/08/08/images/2004080807640801.jpg
http://www.webulagam.com/news/national/0408/07/images/img1040807007_1_2.gif

It will be very inappropriate to paint all Indian Defence related programs as failures. Indians are very smart people. They have cooperated with others to produce many capable items like Brahmos. Arjuns, unfortunately, do not fall in that catagories. They were built big and quite capable but no thought was given to the theatre of action where they could be used. They cannot be used against China but were meant for Pakistan. But their size and weight is their biggest shortcomings.

These tanks when used somewhere else in the world may prove to be the most formidable beast but not against Pakistan. Not because Pakistani tanks are better but because they cannot negotiate the difficult terrain, bridges, and logistical barriers.

India has great tecnical talent what they really need is great planning. Until then they may be producing the biggest and the fastest, but in the end if they cannot use, all their efforts are for not.

 

[d_berwal]

They were built big and quite capable but no thought was given to the theatre of action where they could be used. They cannot be used against China but were meant for Pakistan. But their size and weight is their biggest shortcomings.

These tanks when used somewhere else in the world may prove to be the most formidable beast but not against Pakistan. Not because Pakistani tanks are better but because they cannot negotiate the difficult terrain, bridges, and logistical barriers.

THE REAL PROBLEM WITH ARJUN INDUCTION:

1) the babus sitting in def ministry do not understand ARJUN mbt and what it means for IA.

2) ARJUN as of today is the most advance MBT with IA.

3) ITS too expensive ( we can buy 2 T-90 in 1 ARJUN cost)

4) Troop training has to change v drastically as ARJUN is v superior to any MBT in IA.

5) Logistics is not a nightmare but it is a long term thing.

6) It was easier to buy T90 in bulk and induct it faster as troop training did not change much compared to T72...

7) 1999-2000 IA needed an armoued brigade with T90 or ARJUN kind of capabilities and the only option availiable which made sense was T90.

8) with T90 tot it becomes v easy to upgrade T72 fleet. and get T72s to atleast 90% of capabilities of T90. ( for T72 upgrade we just need to put in the avoiance package of T90 ....... its make lot of COMONSENSE)

9) Logically what IA went for is the best any one can hope for.

y because : in next 3-4 yrs we all will see that IA's tank fleet will consist of:

T-90
T-72 upgarded
T-72 old versions to be phased out
ARJUN
and all future MBTs to be based on ARJUN ( call it ARJUN II, ARJUN III etc)

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys can someone tell me what is the advantage of the drive by wire technology.

india is developing this technology for the arjun mbt and it makes a steering wheel unnecessary,also does any other country have a similiar dbt technology development programme.i remember reading in a janes magazine about an all electric german armoured vehicle(research vehicle),is it similiar to the current indian project.

here check out this link:

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=357441

BATTLE-TANKSAfter "fly-by-wire" aircraft, now "drive-by-wire" battle tanksBANGALORE, FEB 23 (PTI)
India is planning to build "drive-by-wire" battle tanks on the lines of "fly-by-wire" aircraft, Dr M Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister said today.
Addressing the 9th international conference on electromagnetic interference and compatibility here, he said "some work" has been done in this regard, referring to indigenous Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT).
Later, talking to reporters, Natarajan said "drive-by-wire" feature enables actuating of battle tanks with the help of computer.
"Driver (of battle tanks) does not need steering wheel", Natarajan, also Director General of Defence Research & Development Organisation, said.
He said the development of "drive-by-wire" feature is in an experiment stage. "It's for our own use. Not for forces. For our own study".
Natarajan also said design of airborne early warning radar for surveillance purposes is in progress. "People are on the job". He said multi-functional radar for "very high range" with strategic systems is being built. Natarajan said monitoring of lengthy sea coast line and land borders from military, commercial and economic view points needs networked systems.

 

[gf0012-aust]

"Driver (of battle tanks) does not need steering wheel", Natarajan, also Director General of Defence Research & Development Organisation, said.
He said the development of "drive-by-wire" feature is in an experiment stage. "It's for our own use. Not for forces. For our own study".

Huh?? Tanks don't use steering wheels. No tank built in the last 90 years has used a steering wheel. The older models use levers for each track side. Modern tanks are already FBW.

 

[aaaditya]

Huh?? Tanks don't use steering wheels. No tank built in the last 90 years has used a steering wheel. The older models use levers for each track side. Modern tanks are already FBW.

well what the person stated was that the tank did not need any specific equipment for steering like control levers ,steering wheels etc. and that it could be actuated by meens of the computer system,thats why i find it a bit confusing.

Later, talking to reporters, Natarajan said "drive-by-wire" feature enables actuating of battle tanks with the help of computer.
"Driver (of battle tanks) does not need steering wheel", Natarajan, also Director General of Defence Research & Development Organisation, said.

personally i would not want to be typing commands for the battle tank when iam engaged in combat,it is very tedious.

by the way can you tell me how does this system work(does it control the gear system in modern battle tanks and the brakes and the clutch).

can you also tell me what is the purpose and the meaning of the trm torque converter.

 

[hovercraft]

well what the person stated was that the tank did not need any specific equipment for steering like control levers ,steering wheels etc. and that it could be actuated by meens of the computer system,thats why i find it a bit confusing.

Later, talking to reporters, Natarajan said "drive-by-wire" feature enables actuating of battle tanks with the help of computer.
"Driver (of battle tanks) does not need steering wheel", Natarajan, also Director General of Defence Research & Development Organisation, said.

personally i would not want to be typing commands for the battle tank when iam engaged in combat,it is very tedious.

by the way can you tell me how does this system work(does it control the gear system in modern battle tanks and the brakes and the clutch).

can you also tell me what is the purpose and the meaning of the trm torque converter.

all tanks of the world are drive by wire, and non-wheel tanks or apc's must be controled by hydralic systems which is controled by computer, no one is able to drive a non-wheeld tank with steering

 

[gf0012-aust]

well what the person stated was that the tank did not need any specific equipment for steering like control levers ,steering wheels etc. and that it could be actuated by meens of the computer system,thats why i find it a bit confusing.

The controls are by joystick - much like some modern submarines (not Kilos though).

it means that instead of controling movement by full length hydraulics or heaven forbid mechanical linkages - the system uses computer commands to actuate the steerage and drive train mechanisms.

its a substantial savings in weight.

eg think of flying a mig-21 as compared to a gripen. - or a kilo compared to a collins.

eg the latest ferrari is also FBW IIRC.

 

[Waylander]

But modern tanks already "think" about their movement.
For example if i whant to drive to the left with a Leopard II, the tank automatically controls the left and the right track. It also goes down with the gear by itself if the circle is too small.
I just don't understand which improvements this drive-by-wire system gives to a tank.

 

[aaaditya]

well seems that the snags in the arjun tank have been rectified and that the user(indian army) has not rejected the project.

LS-DEFENCESnags in Arjun tank and Dhruv rectified: MinisterNEW DELHI, MAR 9 (PTI)
Rejecting suggestions that production of weapons in Indian ordnance factories and defence PSUs did not match international quality, government today said snags pointed out by armed forces in Arjun tank and Dhruv Advance Flight helicopters have been removed.
"Our policies are not aimed at capturing arms market in the world. Production from our ordnance factories and defence PSUs are only for our requirement so quality cannot be compromised," Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee said in Lok Sabha.
Asked why Arjun tank was rejected by Army and Dhruv by the Air Force, Mukherjee said it was incorrect to say that these were rejected. "As is the case with any new production, some snags were pointed out in Arjun tank. One rotator came out from Dhruv. We have rectified the snags and corrections have been done as pointed out by users," he said. The Minister, however, conceded that there were some countries which were producing highly sophisticated equipment and efforts were being made to bridge the gap.



here check out this link
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=369061

 

[powerslavenegi]

IT better for Indians stop this project and if they need some tank building tips Pakistan can give them .. but First they have to put there Mess (Arjun) in the Arabian SEA..
. :smokingc:

WE know from the previous tank battles whose tanks were better,

Admin: Text deleted. both of you posters need to be familiar with the forum rules on respect.

 

[suryaaa]

guys our army is going to take the field test of arjun along with t-72,he also said that it will this test which will decide arjuns role in indian army
at present army ordered 124 of them

Field trial of Arjun tanks in the next month or two: Army Chief
BANGALORE, MAY 27 (PTI)

The Indian Army would conduct field trials of the indigenous main battle tank Arjun "in a month or two" along with the T-72 battle tanks, Chief of Indian Army Gen J J Singh said today.

The Army had placed order for 124 Arjun tanks and "we will find out during trials this summer where exactly we can exploit the capabilities of these tanks in the best manner and accordingly, we will use the tanks," he told reporters here.

He admitted that there had been delay in delivery and induction of Arjun but added "I believe when a country makes any state-of-the-art equipment, the production cycle takes a long time."

"But, we are going to try out these tanks and based on their performance, we will be able to decide how best we can exploit them," the Army chief said.

Asked how the Army rated Arjun in its class, he said, "as per the literature, it is supposed to be the state-of-the-art and compares very favourably with the equipment of similar class anywhere in the world." The Arjun tank, he said, had most of the advanced features in its gunnery, firing systems, fire control system, communication system and survivability in an NBC (Nuclear, Biological and chemical) environment.

Asked if, considering the upswing in Indo-US relations, the Indian Army favoured shopping of military equipment from the US, Singh said "it is a government's decision."

He said the Army projects its requirements from the national security point of view and "if it can be produced indigenously, that is our first preference. If not, the second preference is that we produce within our country but get technology from outside and any Public Sector Undertaking or other company can do that. We prefer that."

However, Singh said, if nothing could be done "like this", "then we would like to meet the requirements from imports."

Emphasising that the equipment itself was the "most important criterion," he said, "if it is the best equipment and if we are getting it from them, we will be happy to receive them."

Asked if the Army was "open" to receiving the equipment from the US, he said "yes. We are happy to receive the equipment which is in the best class from any source and it is the decision of the government.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

 

[aaaditya]

guys our army is going to take the field test of arjun along with t-72,he also said that it will this test which will decide arjuns role in indian army
at present army ordered 124 of them

Field trial of Arjun tanks in the next month or two: Army Chief
BANGALORE, MAY 27 (PTI)

The Indian Army would conduct field trials of the indigenous main battle tank Arjun "in a month or two" along with the T-72 battle tanks, Chief of Indian Army Gen J J Singh said today.

The Army had placed order for 124 Arjun tanks and "we will find out during trials this summer where exactly we can exploit the capabilities of these tanks in the best manner and accordingly, we will use the tanks," he told reporters here.

He admitted that there had been delay in delivery and induction of Arjun but added "I believe when a country makes any state-of-the-art equipment, the production cycle takes a long time."

"But, we are going to try out these tanks and based on their performance, we will be able to decide how best we can exploit them," the Army chief said.

Asked how the Army rated Arjun in its class, he said, "as per the literature, it is supposed to be the state-of-the-art and compares very favourably with the equipment of similar class anywhere in the world." The Arjun tank, he said, had most of the advanced features in its gunnery, firing systems, fire control system, communication system and survivability in an NBC (Nuclear, Biological and chemical) environment.

Asked if, considering the upswing in Indo-US relations, the Indian Army favoured shopping of military equipment from the US, Singh said "it is a government's decision."

He said the Army projects its requirements from the national security point of view and "if it can be produced indigenously, that is our first preference. If not, the second preference is that we produce within our country but get technology from outside and any Public Sector Undertaking or other company can do that. We prefer that."

However, Singh said, if nothing could be done "like this", "then we would like to meet the requirements from imports."

Emphasising that the equipment itself was the "most important criterion," he said, "if it is the best equipment and if we are getting it from them, we will be happy to receive them."

Asked if the Army was "open" to receiving the equipment from the US, he said "yes. We are happy to receive the equipment which is in the best class from any source and it is the decision of the government.

http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?gid=73

i believe these tanks have been updated with a 1500hp engine instead of a 1400hp engine and have an air condition system designed by mecon.