India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

Wil the Arjun be better than the T-90?


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d_berwal

Banned Member
chinawhite said:
EDIT: Message retracted.

Yes the T-90 does come with full TOT which is still another reason why the T-90 is a better choice. The arjun still relies for a large percentage of its equipment from imports. Less funds for indias own compaines and higher cost. I completly forgot about the cost factor completly. For the price of one arjun you can get 1.5~2 T-90s.
Yes you r sooo right.... COST is the only factor why INDIA is sooo slow on getting ARJUNs as their main effort is to induct T90 ASAP into strike formations.

After Kargil, Army has invested a lot in war prepardness and i guess T90 is a priority as earlier strike formations lacked fast attack capability and as per the cold start t90 fits soo well in the scnerio.

Plus the T90 TOT will really help DRDO in upgrading T72's. i believe at the upgraded T72s will match 90% of T90s capabilities.
 

chinawhite

New Member
d_berwal said:
Yes you r sooo right.... COST is the only factor why INDIA is sooo slow on getting ARJUNs as their main effort is to induct T90 ASAP into strike formations.
?.huh

I said that is another reason not the only reason. The other reasons why the arjun are. The arjun costing more and offering less capability and the logistic issues are probaly are the main driving force from replacing the inidan tank forces or being a significant part of it. Others reason here

A) The foreign content is way to high
B) It does not suit indias cold start doctrime
C) It still has trouble even through development started in 1974
D) Its significantly cheaper to upgrade T-72s than buy Arjun in bulk

I am wondering why india continued with its Arjun program even through india got the T-72 to replace the majority of its tank fleet. which was the arjuns original purpose?.

There are other problems but they are not so apparant. Like the armour. Does Kanchan armour offer as much protection as claimed?. The arjun is lighter than the other comparable sized tanks while it is also lighter. Does india have the capbilty to make the mateirlas the Challenger or Abram have?

The FCS is also a worry. through it can be upgraded. It has been outdated for a number of years now. Is inida willing to spend money on a obsolete FCS againest the Al khalid tank which is being fitted or already has a BMS in place.

Im really just skating on the service with these problems, But do you really want the indian army to have a inferior tank?.

aaaditya said:
according to the bharat rakshak arjun has a range of 450kms
I got my answer from a number of sources So i would take my sources over yours.

If we take the range of 450km. and compare it with the T-90s. It stil leaves us with a sizeable difference between the two. The T-90 is more fuel effiencnt and uses a less powerful engine which still offers a high P:W ratio. What advantages does a 58 ton tank offer againest a 46~50 tank in mobility?
 

aaaditya

New Member
chinawhite said:
?.huh

I said that is another reason not the only reason. The other reasons why the arjun are. The arjun costing more and offering less capability and the logistic issues are probaly are the main driving force from replacing the inidan tank forces or being a significant part of it. Others reason here

A) The foreign content is way to high
B) It does not suit indias cold start doctrime
C) It still has trouble even through development started in 1974
D) Its significantly cheaper to upgrade T-72s than buy Arjun in bulk

I am wondering why india continued with its Arjun program even through india got the T-72 to replace the majority of its tank fleet. which was the arjuns original purpose?.

There are other problems but they are not so apparant. Like the armour. Does Kanchan armour offer as much protection as claimed?. The arjun is lighter than the other comparable sized tanks while it is also lighter. Does india have the capbilty to make the mateirlas the Challenger or Abram have?

The FCS is also a worry. through it can be upgraded. It has been outdated for a number of years now. Is inida willing to spend money on a obsolete FCS againest the Al khalid tank which is being fitted or already has a BMS in place.

Im really just skating on the service with these problems, But do you really want the indian army to have a inferior tank?.



I got my answer from a number of sources So i would take my sources over yours.

If we take the range of 450km. and compare it with the T-90s. It stil leaves us with a sizeable difference between the two. The T-90 is more fuel effiencnt and uses a less powerful engine which still offers a high P:W ratio. What advantages does a 58 ton tank offer againest a 46~50 tank in mobility?
the problem is with the french fire control system which was mounted on arjun,this system also had problems when mounted on the t-90s but the bel fcs(developed with israeli assistance)has met the user requirements.
the arjun has chobham armour which the indian army considers to be the best in its inventory of battle tanks ,the arjuns gun is considered to be an excellent weapon by the indian army.

this is the prime reason why all these equipments are being currently tested on the tank ex which is nothing but arjun turret,gun,ergonomics,fire control system and the kanchan armour mounted on a t-72/t-90 chasis along with a 1200 hp deisel engine.the weight of this tank is 48.5 tons.
 

chinawhite

New Member
umm...

The problems with the FCS on the Arjun is not how it is mounted but the actual technology it has. The Bel FCS is basically a slightly improved Marconi FCS. But if we compare the FCS to the Al khalid tank theres a big difference between technology. The Al khalid tank is the tank which it is meant to counter and uses a BMS which gives it a big lead in controlling tanks and awareness of the battle field

You mean compostie armour not chobham. I've seen that claim being made by a number of people stating it uses chobham. But they have no proof and it usually ends up they are being confused by the different words. Right now the arjun is using Kanchan armour which is a type of compostie armour. No one really knows the actuall strength but it should be under the strength of first generation armour the M1 tank is using. I would suspect the Kanchan is cheaper than ERA the russians are offering or it has some polictical connections

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Tank Ex is a program which DRDO is doing by itself. It has not been endorsed by the army nor is the program finished testing. But I think it has its bad and good points. Adding a bigger user friendly turrnet to the basic Soviet hull solves the problem most iraqi tanks had and is alot cheaper than making Arjun hulls and dramaticly decreases the weight. Most tank crews which died in iraq died because their turrnet exploded and killed their crews. The arjun tank has blow out panels so this would be a advantage over the russian design

The bad points about this are they are putting a heavy turrnet on a lighter tank which affects mobility suspensiion and lowers top speed. From the sources i have this program does not invole replacing the engine and has a top speed of only 60km/h. As of now the tank has not entered indian army trials and is only in limited testing by DRDO.

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All these problems being said. The T-90 and upgraded T-72s are not going have their lead over the Al khalid or the T-80. This is if they even have a advantage over the Al khalid. I would only consider the T-90 as a stop gap and the upgrades of the T-72 as a temporary situation while inida comes up with the Arjun II or even possibly the Black eagle or T-95 which i think the russians would be more than happy to sell.

The original arjun design is not a perfect design because of the vertical placement of the armour and the germans which are now producing tanks with sloded armour to tank advantage of the extra armour and better ballistic shape compared to the vertical turrnet. I think DRDO is wasting their resources just by buildig the Arjun tank on a T-72 with the funds they have/had. A new evolutionary design or even a radically upgraded version would fit indias requiement. As of now the Arjun offers nothing which challenges the T-90 in the tank role and cost even more to produce. India needs a tank which is able to counter anything the pakistanis have. The possible Al khalid II or even a upgraded Al khalid. Producing a tank now which offers nothing more than indias existing tank fleet is a step backward not forward.

If DRDO upgrades the Arjun with more armour it is going to increase the troubles which DRDO is trying to already to fix. That is why india needs to choose a new design which utilizes more modern ideas like the advances in tank design eg sloped armour. And joint production of a BMS system with the french or the russians if their making one. But the idea im getting at is the inidans should invest in the Black eagle which offers the next step in tank development and will offer better everything compared to any thing the Al khalid II will offer
 
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d_berwal

Banned Member
Arjun MBT: Mighty Warrior Or A Mere Mortal?
v.1.0 June 2004
Vishal Kansagra
[Arjun is the name of the mythological warrior from India’s battle epic, the Mahabharata. The discourse that the God Krishna, who in human form is Arjun’s charioteer, gives to him on the battlefield when he, Arjun, revolts at the thought of killing his own kin, is possibly the best philosophical discussion anywhere of a soldier’s duty. The discourse is known as the Baghvad Gita.]
Relations between India and Pakistan have been in a state of simmering hostility since the 1971 War, which was characterized by some intense armor battles on both the Eastern and Western fronts.
At the end of that war, the Indian army realized the limitations of their tank fleet in the harsh desert conditions of Rajasthan so they initiated their own indigenous MBT design. The Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) of the Defence Research & Development Organization (DRDO) laid out the first MBT-80 proof-of-concept vehicle in 1974.
Three decades later the end product strongly resembles the Leopard II, though it's development process was plagued with delays.
May had criticized DRDO for its failure to deliver a credible tank to IA after so many years of research. As one of the prominent writer said “DRDO has produced a lemon after all this years of research.”
Since now the future of Arjun is looking quiet promising, it would be prudent to provide the reader with details of all that went through to make Arjun from a ‘lemon’ to a fearsome MBT (Main Battle Tank).
History
Based on 1971 battlefield experiences, the Arjun (previously called MBT-80) has a rifled 120mm main gun designed by DRDO, a diesel powerplant ( turbine engines are considered fuel-guzzlers) and a digital fire control system with a laser range finder. One of the early 'Chetek' prototypes was unveiled to the public on Indian Republic Day, 26 January 1984.
Another public rollout followed in April 1985, after which the name 'Arjun' became the official name. A number of prototypes (five, with an ultimate goal of 20 preproduction vehicles) undergoing technical testing were scheduled for desert trials that summer. Indian Army Chief of Staff Gen A.S. Vaidya and Dr V.S. Arunachalam (Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister) presided at the ceremony, announcing that they planned to have the Arjun in service by the end of the decade.
At the time, it was reported to have a German MTU-based 1400 HP diesel (until an indigenous one was ready), with a weight of 'about' 50 tons (actually 52, though the sketch concepts were around 40-45 tons) and a price tag of US $1.6 million (2 crore rupees, to total 15.5 crore for the whole project). The locally-developed engine, which was expected to deliver 1300-1500 HP from, only delivered 500 with it's turbocharger fitted. However, in 1984 the DRDO was claiming that the transmission was Indian, not German. The tank's 'brains' were a modified Tank Fire Control System (TCFS), which was an upgrade project for the Vicker's Vijayanta based on the Marconi SFCS600, linked to a Barr & Stroud Tank Laser Sight and IR8 Thermal Imager.
The project was further spurred by Pakistan's announcement to fit Royal Ordnance 105mm L7 Main Guns to their Type 69 fleet in December 1985 as well as China's assistance in developing the Type-85 based MBT-2000 (named Al-Khalid) at the end of the 80's.
Meanwhile, Arjun development costs continued to rise, from October 1980 Rs. 56.55 crores to Rs 280 crores in May, 1987. The DRDO conducted the first technical trials in 1988. According to Indian Defence Minister Sharad Pawar, as of October 1991, there were 12 prototypes Arjun MBT's 'in an advanced stage of development'. General B.C. Joshi, the former Army Chief (now deceased), foresaw two Armoured Regiments of 45 Arjuns apiece, but insisted that 10 imperatives be met in 1994 before the Army could accept the tank.
In 1993 the first six prototype tanks were handed over to the 43rd Cavalry Regiment for troop trials at Rajasthan's Mahajan range. Accuracy trials from mid-1994 indicated an erratic first hit ratio that ranged from 20-80%, though this was supposedly reduced to 90% during subsequent troubleshooting. At that point, the first production, Arjuns were projected to be in service by 1995.
Years of fire-power and tactical tests on the firing ranges in desert and semi-arid conditions followed, until the Indian Army considered the results 'excellent'. The Pakistani deal with the Ukraine to purchase T-80UD/T-84's announced in the fall of 1995 caused another flurry of activity in the Indian military community.
At that point, the Arjun had just failed field trials in June. More were set for August and November but observers figured that the US $ 100 million programme has progressed too far to be easily terminated.
On 9 January 1996 the Arjun was formally unveiled and cleared for mass production in a ceremony presided over by Prime Minister P. V. Narasimha Rao. According to Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam, the Indians consider the Arjun comparable to the M1A2 Abrams, Leopard 2 and Leclerc.
However, Army Chief of Staff Gen. Shankar Roy chowdhury pointed out that, while some of the tank's parameters needed to be 'further finetuned', they have enough confidence to plan Arjun variants; mobile assault guns ('self-propelled platforms' or self-propelled artillery), Observation Post Vehicle and Air Defence (Gun or Missile), recovery, engineer and bridgelayers. New bridgelayers and recovery vehicles would be necessary, given the Arjun's substantial weight increase over the T-72M1 series. Most of India's roads are in the 40 ton military classification range, save for national highways' 70 ton range.
The 59-ton (58.5 tons) 15th Variant can achieve a maximum speed of 70 kph (55 mph) and cross-country of 40 kph with it's 1400 HP powerplant. The Arjun's hydropneumatic suspension can be hardened or softened, according to the terrain and the 1610 litre fuel tank allows for a cruising range of 200 km (120 miles).
The 15 Pre-Production Series (PPS) tanks were supposed to be supplied to three armoured regiments for testing in 1996, but it wasn't until 27 August that the Defence Production and Supplies Secretary ordered them from the Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi (at which point, one Indian media estimate placed the project cost at US $ 112 million or 400 million Rupees).
However, the Indian Defence Ministry's publicised cost for these 15 tanks was US $ 38.2 million (RI.62 billion).
At least one Arjun fielded by the 43rd Armoured Regiment participated in the 48th Republic Day parade on 27 January 1997. Delivery of the prototype lot was completed in April, field trials were again declared completed and series production was to start in early June '97.
However, the list of faults after twenty years of development was not encouraging. In addition to unspecified but numerous technical modifications to its fire and gun control systems (the Commanders Periscopic Sight, the Laser Warning Sight and the Muzzle Reference Sight have been found 'unreliable'), the fire control system in particular has been found unable to perform in temperatures above 42 degrees Celsius. The DRDO has been contemplating scraping the current Arjun FCS in favour of whatever is accepted for the T-72M1 upgrade programme.
Since the Arjun extends 6cm beyond the official 3cm limit on either side of a standard Indian flatbed railcar, strategic transport would be extremely difficult. This would also require that India refurbish large sections of her rail network, as well as acquiring new rolling stock (This is nothing new, as the Germans had this problem with the ÔTiger' Mk VI in World War II). It's width and weight, Indian Rail to charge the Army over-dimensional consignment (ODC) costs, which are 150% over normal costs. The Indian Ministry of Defence allocated US$ 3.9 million (R165 million) to develop three Arjun-capable flatbed rail cars wagon by January 1999.
The German MTU MB 838 Ka-SOl 1 ,4OO hp diesel engine and transmission derated at high temperatures, with an estimated 20-25% powerloss from engine to drive sprocket while operating in desert temperatures of 45-500 Celsius. Ammunition stowage had to be reduced in order to increase engine cooling and the 15th PPS can not fire over the engine deck at 00 elevation because of the bulky cooling pack. This powerpack choice also resulted in bulges in the hull side walls.
The problems with the hydropneumatic suspension can possibly be linked to the Arjun's difficulty in climbing sand dunes and other obstacles easily, with a sharp drop in speed in its attempt to do so. Furthermore, the inert gases needed would be another item added to the supply trains.
As of mid-year, the 15th Arjun Mk I was to be the basis for the production model4. The defects noticed during the user trials of Mk.1 , including overheating of the engine in Rajasthan desert areas, had been 'by and large overcome' and certain
other complaints were being addressed. CVRDE has mostly rectified the other problems in the hydro-pneumatic suspension.
Another problem in the Arjun's development was that more than half the components (FCS, engine, transmission unit, tracks, thermal sight, night sight) are imported, with the design components 1970's and 80's vintage.
Furthermore, the technology transfer agreements for the imported engine, gun control system, fire-control system had most vendors (like MTU and Holland's Oldelft, which makes the LRS 5 Fire Control System) producing components in India in a phased manner.
The production of 100 Arjun Mk.1 MBTs was expected to start by late 1997 (during the Ninth Defence Plan) at an estimated cost of US$ 2.8 million [Rs. 10 crores] each. The Army, however, feels that the 100-tank lot might take more than five years, given the capacity at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory near Chennai and its commitments to various sectors of the armed forces. The first production tank was promised by 1985.
A later claim by DRDO stated that it needed up to (Rs 1,800 crores) to produce 120 tanks over the next five years, with each one costing US $ 4.2 million [Rs 15 crores] (about a 2,000 % increase in project cost since 1974).
Another cost estimate figured that the Arjun will be over Rs 26 billion by 2001 for two or three regiments (124 tanks), totaling around US $5.6 million (Rs 200 million) per tank. This escalating estimate does not include the cost of ammunition, spares and engineering support for the Arjun's induction into service, which is estimated at over (Rs 5 billion).
One reported Government-sanctioned figure for Arjun development and T-72M1 upgrade (with most going to the Arjun) is US $1.12 Billion (Rs 40 billion) spread out over the next three to five years.
Despite promises made by the Finance Minister, Mr. P. Chidambaram, that lack of funds would not come in the way of India's defence needs, some officials were skeptical over deadlines being maintained by the production and subcontractors which might result not only in cost escalation but also affect defence preparedness. Detractors think that (baring drastic changes) the country's progressively shrinking defence budget, coupled with the persistent technical problems, would delay any serious Arjun serial production until 2002/2004.
In early August, 1997 General Shankar Roy Chowdhury, Army chief of staff, promised officers and soldiers of the 13th Armoured Regiment that the Arjun would enter production soon. Less than two months later, DRDO was shaken by the desertion of scores of military scientists and engineers lured to the more lucrative private sector, jeopardizing the success of the Arjun project.
As of 18 September, the Indian Parliament approved a $6.9 Billion (250 billion Rupee) Five-Year Defence Budget. In this 1997-2002 budget, some 40 Billion Rupees has been allocated for the Ajeya rebuild programme, and another 1 Billion Rupees for the first 100 Arjuns.
Yet BG D. R. Gole went on record in October saying that the Arjun's Fire Control System has a 20-80% First Shot hit ratio. The DRDO blamed this on the test crew from the 43rd Cavalry, whom they accused of having a mindset leftover from the T-72M1's (which cannot fire on the move). Before official acceptance, the Army wants the tank lightened, fitted with an internal APU and reactive armour.
In mid-November, DRDO chief A.P.J. Abdul Kalam told a closed-door meeting of his ministry's Parliamentary Consultative Committee that the Arjun had been tested for 20,000 km and cleared for 'limited series production'.
Before a crowd at the National Defence Academy in early December, the Army Chief of Staff Gen. Ved Prakash Malik denied that Arjun's induction into the army was being delayed and added that some unspecified tests and improvements had to be carried out before the army could accept them.
By early May, 1998, the US decision to impose sanctions on India could possibly have jeopardized the Arjun's further development, since some US companies were supplying elements of the main gun-sighting and fire-control systems for the Arjun tank. There was also speculation as to whether Germany would stop supplying MTU engines. Arjun Executive Board (AEB) narrowed their choices for an FCS to Thomson CSF and Elbit of Israel (which could also be used in the T-72M1 ÔRhino'). The imported components used in the Arjun rose from 27% in the 1987 to 60% in PPS. (Pre-Producion Series) enhancing the costs substantially.
The Comptroller and Auditor General's report on the Summer 1997 trials, released in mid-1998, noted six premature transmission failures and frequent overheating of the transmission fluid, probably because the imported transmission assembly had been overloaded.
Teething problems
Even after crores had been spent on the project the future of Arjunlooked very bleak since Army was not ready to accept Arjun until most of the problems had been sorted out. Pakistan acquired 315 T-80U from Ukraine and this was a cause of concern for Army, which needed a similar if not better MBT to counter T-80U. They turned to T-90S from Russia, which was considered superior to T-80U. Field trials of T-90S began in 1999. At $ 3 million apiece, it was worth it. To many it looked like the last nail in Arjun’s coffin. Arjun’s list of problems read something like this:
• Old & inefficient MTU engine which heated up frequently making Arjun unsuitable for deployment in Rajasthan.
• To counter overheating, a cooling pack was installed which reduced the ammo capacity & affected gun depression.
• Failure to develop an indigenous 1500 hp engine.
• Problems with the FCS.
• Poor operational mobility to due to its excessive weight and width.
• Problems with the commander's periscope sight, laser warning sight and muzzle reference sight.
• Transporting Arjun was a problem, as the 58-tonne tank protrudes 6cm beyond the permissible 3cm limit on either side of tank transporters used for India's current MBT, the T-72M1.
Back from the dead
If Arjun resembles something most from mythology, it is the bird which rises from its own ashes – the Phoenix. DRDO was raring to go ahead and eliminate all the flaws that Arjun had and give a potent fighting machine to the Indian Army. They started solving all the problems one at a time.
• DRDO fixed the problems with mobility & engine heating.
• DRDO teamed up with Israeli companies to develop a digital FCS. This FCS was extensively tested by Indian Army & duly accepted.
• Development of new & better optics by BEL.
• The MoD has allocated $3.9 million to build three transporter types to move Arjun.
In addition to this Arjun achieved many goals. Some of them are listed below.
• Chromium lined barrel increases the barrel life & also the muzzle velocity of the shell.
• Arjun’s armor was tested in combat like conditions and fared very well. It also withstood direct fire of APFSDS, HEAT, HESH & various RPG roundsas per the latest trials on September 2003.
• LAHAT ATGM has been test fired from Arjun. This trials were successful.
• Never before seen crew protection levels in tanks used by Indian Army. Crew protection is paramount and slight changes have been made here. The ammo storage is in the turret bustle but is modulated and separated from the crew by armor, so that if hit by RPG or top-attack ATGM, crew remains safe.
• Integrated GPS & BMS (Battlefield Management System). These systems have touch screen for rapid access.
• A new Active Area Defense System (AADS) from Elbit.
• Estimated cost of $ 4 million per piece.
Future
Future of Arjun looks very bright. DRDO is more confident now. Spin-offs from Arjun project have been many. Army has extensively tested a howitzer mounted on Arjun chasis named ‘Bhim’. Another is Arjun turret mounted atop T-72 chasis. It is named Tank-Ex by DRDO (some people also call it Karna).
So now Arjun has really turned into a mighty warrior and is a fitting reply to all those who have criticized DRDO for nothing but “a bunch of jokers”.
 

chinawhite

New Member
I dont like propaganda. Maybe a link to the article to decide who wrote that article so we can decide how biased he is

EDIT:

I found the site. Orbat.com is a enthusiasts wargames site. It is not a professional site so it would make that a opinion not a actual article. It uses to much second hand information and in my opinion to much patriotism. eg "If Arjun resembles something most from mythology, it is the bird which rises from its own ashes – the Phoenix"

He wrote it in june of 2005 while this article

Arjun tanks’ tech troubles continue
"India’s trouble-ridden Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has run into yet another round of technological problems as several of its crucial systems, including its engine, failed during recent trials in Rajasthan, over three decades after the project was launched.

“Certain systems (of Arjun) have not met acceptance criteria during preparatory trials,” Defence Minister Pranab Mukherjee admitted in parliament recently, adding that these were being rectified.

Mr Mukherjee said more “ruggedisation” was being introduced in Arjun to enable it to withstand abnormal peak temperatures in the desert, one of the areas where it is likely to be eventually deployed."

Source

My information being the newer one contradicts yours.
 
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fieldmarshal

New Member
this tank arjun has no standing amongst tanks, simply because at the moment and in the future will not enter service in numbers with the indians.

If it had been half as decent as all the indians and their supporters have been propagating than ia would not have been running after russia to sell the t-90. a while back on this threat i had posted an article from an indian def source in which even the ia chief had given the said tank a thumbs down.

So this thread is a non starter and a waste of time.:D
 

vrus

New Member
Chinawhite is right about 'propoganda and bias'. People these days can get quite excited. Fieldmarshal, if this thread is a non-starter and a waste of time, what are you doing here ? You are providing your opinion, but not everyone would agree with you even though I feel you are correct to some extent...:p::D
 

fieldmarshal

New Member
vrus said:
Chinawhite is right about 'propoganda and bias'. People these days can get quite excited. Fieldmarshal, if this thread is a non-starter and a waste of time, what are you doing here ? You are providing your opinion, but not everyone would agree with you even though I feel you are correct to some extent...:p::D
well i aint the 1 who started it + at that certain instint i had nothin better to do & i love gettin under indians skin, if u know wt i mean.;)

I say it again arjun is a dud............bub
 

d_berwal

Banned Member
chinawhite said:
?.huh

I said that is another reason not the only reason. The other reasons why the arjun are. The arjun costing more and offering less capability and the logistic issues are probaly are the main driving force from replacing the inidan tank forces or being a significant part of it. Others reason here

A) The foreign content is way to high
B) It does not suit indias cold start doctrime
C) It still has trouble even through development started in 1974
D) Its significantly cheaper to upgrade T-72s than buy Arjun in bulk
A) About Foreign Content:

even the M1A2 carries a German gun ( what will u say the main armament is a foreign component,, thus by ur logic M1A2, M1xx is a .......

B) Cold Star is BAsed on present inventory of Armour.
Cold Star will be changed/ updated as IA develops a startegy on arjuns.

Arjun is still a new addition to the forces and it will take time before it makes it to front line duty. Mostly will be attached with rapids and will not form part of strike corps yet till the operational capability and tactical doctorine is well established and documented and perfected. Its a step to a whole new level which will require considerable changed to infrastructure and supporting arms of army. A time consuming process.

C) Pls name a military equipment which does not have scope of improvement.

M1 development was started in 1970's The present M1A2 enterded service in 1990's.... so by UR logic it is a worthless tank.

D) Yes ur last point is right.

at present... ARJUN's operational capability and tactical doctorine isn't well established and documented and perfected no sane & logical ARMY will induct a new equipment in BULK.
 

d_berwal

Banned Member
chinawhite said:
?.huh

There are other problems but they are not so apparant. Like the armour. Does Kanchan armour offer as much protection as claimed?. The arjun is lighter than the other comparable sized tanks while it is also lighter. Does india have the capbilty to make the mateirlas the Challenger or Abram have?

The FCS is also a worry. through it can be upgraded. It has been outdated for a number of years now. Is inida willing to spend money on a obsolete FCS againest the Al khalid tank which is being fitted or already has a BMS in place.

1) i dont know your sources but still...

Will you agree ARJUN fires Isreali Lahat,, put logic for firing a L.guided missile changes in a FCS are required .. so thay were done ,, with whose help any one can guess...

2) BMS,, ?

why is BMS required... to get real time data so Tank comander has always correct info in regards to his position, support, etc.......

this data is transfered in real time so u need to have a data link..

data link gets these data from UAV's, staellite , etc this same data is used by brigade HQ, Core HQ, Army Hq for upto date info and planning.

WHY will INdia buy so many UAV's , go in for an recon Satellite and invest so much in Army signals data security and transafer capabilities. without planning for there ground level Commanders.

I think u are only speculating as there is no authentic data source on BMS topic and no one knows the make and model no.

INDIAN T-72 upgrade , T-90 and Arjun all will have BMS in fact the upgrades are going on as we discuss about it. ( but no info on Model no.)

and about the INDIAN technical knowhow.

"SATHI is an abbreviation for Situational Awareness and Tactical Handheld Information. Encore is the same company that had earlier released a commodity computer called 'Simputer' for the Indian market. "The idea was to leverage our existing Simputer technology and turn it into a battlefield computer. Simputer was the only device that had a USB Master, a must need for an integrated battlefield computer," adds Metrani.

"The requirement of the Indian Army was an integrated battlefield computer that could allow a soldier to pinpoint his exact field location on a GIS powered map, allow friendly troops to see his position on their screens, and lastly, allow communication between the two," he explained.

The result is a hi-tech integrated computer that runs on a 128-bit encrypted (DES) standard, capable of withstanding temperatures between -20 C to +70 C, with a range of 5 km, an inbuilt RF modem, and a GPS receiver - all with 24 hours of battery life and weighing just 875 grams. "The device works on a password based system, so it can actually act as a decoy if it falls into enemy hands. If an unauthorized attempt is made to login, SATHI can actually reveal the position of the person attempting the break in to friendly troops, thereby doubling up as a failsafe decoy. A soldier can conveniently mark and share positions with others using a stylus," claimed Metrani."

Surprisingly, SATHI was tested and deployed in March last year for counter insurgency operations in Jammu & Kashmir, but due to the sensitive nature of the project, no information was released to the media. The product was initially named Baaz (Bird's eye view of the battlefield). SATHI is expected to be inducted in mechanized warfare and infantry operations shortly.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
d_berwal said:
B) Cold Star is BAsed on present inventory of Armour.
Cold Star will be changed/ updated as IA develops a startegy on arjuns.
The doctrines correct name is actually "Cold Start"

Cold Start refers to a an engagement concept - MBT usage is only a small fraction of the concept.
 

aaaditya

New Member
well atleast the indian army chief seems to believe that the arjun's are world class tanks.

here is the link: http://in.rediff.com/news/2006/jan/14army.htm


Meanwhile, Gen Singh asserted that there was no problem with either the indigenously designed Main Battle Tank Arjun or the 5.56 mm INSAS rifle, as recent reports had pointed out.
''The INSAS is a first-rate weapon. As with all weapon systems, there are small areas of improvement, which we constantly point out. These are being addressed,'' he said.
Regarding Arjun, the Army chief said the Defence Research and Development Organisation was currently trying out the tank in the deserts.
''Next month, the DRDO will make the tank available to us for comparative trials, which we will hold with the T-72 and the T-90s,'' he said.
Noting that the Army had already placed an indent of 124 tanks with the Ordnance Factory Board, he said they would raise two regiments equipped with Arjun.
''The Arjun is a world-class tank... we will use them in the sectors where they are the most effective,'' Gen Singh said



by the way can anyone suggest what could be the 20 special items that india can acquire from the usa for its special force? are the xm29oicw available.

The process of modernisation of the Indian Army's elite Special Forces has been kicked off with the necessary equipment being identified and acquired, Army Chief Gen J J Singh said on Friday.
''We are paying due attention to the modernisation of the Special Forces. The Army has identified 40 items as necessary for the purpose. Out of these, 20 are extremely specialised and are available from the US... we are acquiring them through the Foreign Military Sales route,'' he said on the eve of Army Day.
The Army chief said an empowered committee comprising senior officials had visited the US and 'seen and selected the requisite items'.
''We hope to get these items within the next six months... one year at the latest,'' he said.
Regarding the remaining 20 items, Gen Singh said they would be acquired within the next one or two years.
''Nevertheless, one must remember that the Army's Special Forces -- which are tasked with being in the forefront of all offensive operations -- have performed well,'' he said.
The Indian Army presently has five battalions of Special Forces, drawn out of the total ten battalions of the Parachute Regiment.
 

chinawhite

New Member
d_berwal said:
A) About Foreign Content even the M1A2 carries a German gun
Carries a german designed gun not a Imported gun. whats the number of imported goodies again? 40? 50? or 60%?. the Gun is american made not german. It was just designed by a german company. The arjuns actual equipment is built in overseas countries and imported into india with a lot of cash.

In this whole disscussion you have not provided a reason why the arjun is a better choice than the T-90. Cost or technology

Cold Star is BAsed on present inventory of Armour.
Cold Star will be changed/ updated as IA develops a startegy on arjuns.
Do you know what cold start doctrime is?

Pls name a military equipment which does not have scope of improvement. M1 development was started in 1970's The present M1A2 enterded service in 1990's.... so by UR logic it is a worthless tank.
The M1A2 is a update from a already supreb tank which still has no rivial while the arjun cant run properly on its own power. Difference? (pun intended). Its not improvment. If a tank was designed to fight in the desert it shoul be able to fight in the desert.

The M1 entered service with a 105mm and didn't have any problems killing tanks with a 105mm (example in the arab-israeli wars). Then the got a more powerful gun to stay ahead of the competition and this new system adwarness system is going to be used to stay ahead of the competition.
 

chinawhite

New Member
d_berwal said:
1) i dont know your sources but still...Will you agree ARJUN fires Isreali Lahat,, put logic for firing a L.guided missile changes in a FCS are required
bharat-rakshak.com.

And you dont need a new FCS to fire the LAHAT. Only to keep the commanders sight on the target. Its basically a anti-tank missiles which is fired from you gun instead of a lanucher. Have you seen the sights of a Laser guided missile?

It gives you a longer stick than your enemy. eg engamnet range is 2.5-6km while the nomal engament range in combat is about 2-3km which gives you a advantage.

I think u are only speculating as there is no authentic data source on BMS topic and no one knows the make and model no.
Theres some pictures of the BMS in ****************.com . Tanks with no BMS system will rely on the trusty radio the one with BMS will have a graph of terrain and a map of where friendly tanks are and where your friends have been shot at.

and about the INDIAN technical knowhow.
I have seen and read the technical sheet for that. Its bascially a civillain grade radio system going to be issued to indian soldiers. Nothing know how just useful for the indian soldiers in Kashmir
 

d_berwal

Banned Member
chinawhite said:
bharat-rakshak.com.

I have seen and read the technical sheet for that. Its bascially a civillain grade radio system going to be issued to indian soldiers. Nothing know how just useful for the indian soldiers in Kashmir

why would some one(country) want to give u there secrets if u are not autorised to view them...... (but it dosent mean system are crappy)... saathi is so new that others dont even have something like this in live environment,,, thus why should india give away the actual details.

If you have read the Tec sheet and understood the capabilities and what that means for a Soilder in CI-Ops ,, you would not be asking such Q.

and if IA tells u how useful it is whats the advantage IA has.
 
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aaaditya

New Member
d_berwal said:
why would some one(country) want to give u there secrets if u are not autorised to view them...... (but it dosent mean system are crappy)... saathi is so new that others dont even have something like this in live environment,,, thus why should india give away the actual details.

If you have read the Tec sheet and understood the capabilities and what that means for a Soilder in CI-Ops ,, you would not be asking such Q.

and if IA tells u how useful it is whats the advantage IA has.
russia and israel have expressed interest in the sathi system,russia wants to acquire 100000 units and has asked for technical info.

the sathi is a palm top computer system,it serves as a digital diary,moving map display,gps navigation system,targetting computer ,emergency locator transmitter and data network system.
 

chinawhite

New Member
d_berwal said:
why would some one(country) want to give u there secrets if u are not autorised to view them.thus why should india give away the actual details.


LoL. Bad kept secret. heres the specs

Technical Specifications.

* Hardware:
o ARM based RISC processor
o 128MB RAM
o 96MB masked ROM or Flash, depending on version
o USB based external devices - load map, Camera, Printer, Keyboard
o Serial port based devices - RS STARS V, PRIME

* LCD display:
o 240x320 (3.5") color with touch screen

* Mechanical:
o Weight: 875 gms
o Batteries: 2 Li-Ion battery packs; field chargeable for upto 24 hour operation.

* Applications:
o Radio - Integrated Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum radio
modem
o Integrated GPS

Heres a picture
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~it625/submissions/websites/Devices/images/sathi.jpg


You can compare it to any other Comerical PDA and see the difference in performace a commerical one has. Make some secruity changes and presto you have your very own SATHI. I can show you over a dozen ariticles on what the SATHI has and is going to be used for. Now you should know yourself why the SATHI is useful and im not going to waste time telling you if you dont. Because information for SATHI is freely avabile


Sources
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/~it625/submissions/websites/Devices/sathi.html
http://www.cxotoday.com/cxo/jsp/article.jsp?article_id=2701&cat_id=908
 
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