Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Ananda]

Tejas Mk2 Deliveries to IAF Expected by 2029, HAL Chief Confirms – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Timeline now 2029 for first induction of Tejas Mk2 to IAF. Now Tejas Mk2 being slot to be replacement basically to all Fighter in IAF inventory asside Su-30MKI and Rafale. Means replacement for Jaguar, Mig 29 and Mirage 2000.

Somehow I got feeling that they will get more Rafale as part of their MRFA to supplement this Tejas Mk2. Tejas Mk1 now slot not only replacing Mig 21 but also Mig 27. I don't have enough confidence that this Tejas Mk2 will be fully inducted on schedule, if we look on the progress of Tejas Mk1. So potentially more Rafale, and I just don't see potential of that F-16V which LM offer as F-21. While AMCA most likely come close to 2040 (at best). Tejas Mk2 already push further close to 2030, just don't see any scenario they can introduce that AMCA before close to 2040.

Some Indian in their forums can bragging that their Aero Industry can be equivalent to Chinese ones in production and productivity. So far, their programs progress, shown they're still far from that. They already make better performance in productivity speed, but still far from Chinese Aero Industry.

 

[Ananda]

Dassault Pushes for 100% Stake in DRAL, Pledges Faster Rafale Production in India – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Dasault increases its offer to India's 114 multirole fighter program (MRFA), by offering full manufacturing of Rafale in India. This can be done if India wiling to let them take over full ownership of their JV subsidiaries in India.

This seems reflecting to thing:

• Dasault own facility in French has limitations so far to increase production if they want to deliver that MRFA program. Considering Dasault own success in export market, already created increase back log production.
• By offering build in India but under it's fully owned subsidiary, means Dasault still control not only production process and QC, but also all the technical know how. Creating standard production which still under their own full control.

This can increase their chances for MRFA against (according to Indian forums and media) the only other potential strong challenger LM. LM already offering their own version of F-16V call F-21 which going to be build in India under their JV with Tata Aerospace.

 

[Ananda]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1787754924102840538

Development of Kaveri, with more local industry involvement as part suppliers. This engine already in Development for decades. India progress on MIC can not be call lackluster, but no matter how Indian administration and their nationalistic onlines enthusiasts say, it is also still lag behind China progress significantly.

Still seems now they're shown further progress from their own Industrial eco system. That's what India lag behind from China, creating their own local industrial eco systems.

 

[Ananda]

Qatar offers sale of 12 Mirage 2000 fighter jets to IAF, deal valued at ₹ 6,000-7,000 cr | Reports - CNBC TV18

According to media reports, the addition of these Qatari Mirage aircraft, which meet the modernisation standards of Mirage 2000-5, could enhance the capabilities of the IAF's existing Mirage squadrons.

www.cnbctv18.com

Qatar offers to sell 12 Mirage 2000 fighter jets to India, talks held in Delhi

Qatar proposed to sell 12 Mirage 2000 fighter planes to India, highlighting their good condition and potential compatibility with India's fleet.

www.indiatoday.in

So seems it is official, Indonesia really pull out from procuring Mirage 2K-5 from Qatar AF. Indian media talk about Qatar now offering them to India. This is not first time actually India has a talk with Qatar on those Mirage 2K.

Considering they are already familiar with Mirage 2K, IAF increasing connection with Dasault, and they (IAF) need to maintain capacities of their Squadrons, it is actually logical deal. IAF should also try to acquire those UAE Mirage 2K-9.

 

[T.C.P]

Qatar offers sale of 12 Mirage 2000 fighter jets to IAF, deal valued at ₹ 6,000-7,000 cr | Reports - CNBC TV18

According to media reports, the addition of these Qatari Mirage aircraft, which meet the modernisation standards of Mirage 2000-5, could enhance the capabilities of the IAF's existing Mirage squadrons.

www.cnbctv18.com

Qatar offers to sell 12 Mirage 2000 fighter jets to India, talks held in Delhi

Qatar proposed to sell 12 Mirage 2000 fighter planes to India, highlighting their good condition and potential compatibility with India's fleet.

www.indiatoday.in

So seems it is official, Indonesia really pull out from procuring Mirage 2K-5 from Qatar AF. Indian media talk about Qatar now offering them to India. This is not first time actually India has a talk with Qatar on those Mirage 2K.

Considering they are already familiar with Mirage 2K, IAF increasing connection with Dasault, and they (IAF) need to maintain capacities of their Squadrons, it is actually logical deal. IAF should also try to acquire those UAE Mirage 2K-9.

Combined with the fact that India was unable to buy the 70 mothballed Mig-29 airframes from Russia and their retirement of the 21s, they really do need the airframes.

 

[At lakes]

F-35, F-22 Developer Coming To India! Lockheed Mulls Setting-Up C-130J Super Hercules Assembly Line Under 'Make In India'

IAF has called for information on a replacement for some of the elderly Russian transports they have. A400 C390 and the C130J-30 being the main contenders. One would have to assume that the Lockheed C130J has the edge since they already have 10 examples in service already. Lockheed is trying to sweeten the deal by suggesting an assembly line could be considered in India.

 

[Ananda]

IAF perhaps already more familiar with C130J, perhaps internally they are prone to prefer that. However from what I heard, Embrear has potential bigger advantage then LM. LM now still toying the idea of build assembly line, while Embrear already has partner to license manufacturing in India. Mahindra group also is well connected politically.

Portal Embraer

embraer.com

With recent export momentum on C390, this is an aircraft that can potentially break C130J dominance in Medium Air Lifter export market. BRICS factor also something that can't be ruled out. My Indian desk colleagues asses that closer relationship with US is something that supported mostly from ruling BJP coalition, but not so from Congress Opposition. However BRICS relationship are something that both ruling and opposition coalitions supported.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

F-35, F-22 Developer Coming To India! Lockheed Mulls Setting-Up C-130J Super Hercules Assembly Line Under 'Make In India'

IAF has called for information on a replacement for some of the elderly Russian transports they have. A400 C390 and the C130J-30 being the main contenders. One would have to assume that the Lockheed C130J has the edge since they already have 10 examples in service already. Lockheed is trying to sweeten the deal by suggesting an assembly line could be considered in India.

If the Indian Air Force just want a replacement for the An-32 (with max payload around 6700 kg, then ordering more Indian made C295 (max payload 7000+ kg) is the most logic choice, on top of the 56 already on order. But if they need a 18+ ton aircraft, then the C-130J is, like you already said, the most logic choice.

 

[Ananda]

HAL’s Nashik Division To Lead Global Sukhoi Su-30 Jet Manufacturing Effort

The state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is currently in discussions with multiple global defence forces about the potential production and export of Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets. It's notewor

bharatshakti.in

Few days old, seems the result of latest meeting between Modi and Putin. Quite significant development in my opinion. This serve at least two things:

1. Provide India incentive to keep engaging with Russia on military and defense co-op. Basically Russian say to India, I'm the only source that not only give you complete tech transfer, but also export rights.
2. With regards to export market, this gives potential Flankers customers or even present customers for source of new flankers or MRO that's also certified by Russian ORM, but not fall under CAATSA.

Although it is technically for India own MKI version, but basically with this HAL can also potentially work with Sukhoi providing customisation of different variance. This is what I also heard from Indonesia and Malaysian sources that India now engaging with them toward providing MRO sources.

 

[koxinga]

Combined with the fact that India was unable to buy the 70 mothballed Mig-29 airframes from Russia and their retirement of the 21s, they really do need the airframes.

It (Mirage 2000s) seems remarkably expensive (around 600 million USD) for nearly 30 year old planes, even if they have good service life (~10 years) + spares were included. The Indonesians were also around that price (700 million)

 

[Ananda]

Those Qatar Mirage 2K from TNI-AU assesment has low flight hours, that without refurbishment can still work out to 2040. This on top Qatar extensive parts inventory. If TNI-AU that're not Mirage 2K users can find it attractive deal, Indian AF which are Mirage 2K long time users can found it more attractive.

If India can also make deals for UAE Mirage 2K, they can at least have additional 2 sq of Mirage 2K operational up to 2040. That'll be in line with Tejas Mk2 schedule.

 

[koxinga]

The issue with the Qatar M2k sticker price for 600 million USD, it is the likely to face internal lobby to buy more Tejas Mk1A instead.

The flyaway cost of USD 37 - 40 million per Tejas means they can get 15-16. Of course, based on track record, HAL's ability to deliver promptly is questionable. This is the weakness point of Tejas. This is especially so, since Qatar can deliver almost immediately. If they can get it down to +500 million USD, they can avoid this reason and have a strong case.

 

[Ananda]

French Mirage 2000 To HAL Tejas: India's Quest For Greater Air Force Capabilities

Russia isn't the only supplier for the Indian Air Force. The transition from the French-made Mirage to the homegrown Tejas is currently underway.

simpleflying.com

.

"According to the IAF’s plan, the indigenous light combat aircraft Mark II will be the ideal replacement for the Mirage 2000 aircraft. However, delays in the development of the aircraft are causing the IAF to further extend the operation of Mirage 2000 beyond 2040, though earlier it was decided to retire the aircraft by 2030. "

Tejas Mk1/1A is not planned by IAF for Mirage 2K replacement, however for Mig 21/27 replacement. They already far behind on the schedule to replace those Mig21 and 27. Mirage 2K and Mig 29 planned to be replaced by Tejas Mk2.

Thus with HAL going to be busy churning Mk1/Mk1A toward end of this decade or early part of next, They need Mirage 2K to be sustain toward later part of next decade. With HAL notorious late schedule delivery perhaps even 2040. So getting existing Mirage 2K and even getting additional ones as interim until Tejas Mk2 can be delivered, makes Gulf's Mirage 2K still attractive.

The Gulf is notorious buying something with enough parts for decades. I bet India still want to bargain the deal, it is India after all, and known to be hard bargaining culture. However the choices for them for interim fighters are not that much. Especially facing situation of further delayment not only current Tejas Mk1/1A let alone Tejas Mk2 as planned Mirage 2K replacement.

Perhaps they can still bargain on the price, however those aircraft before being offer to Indonesia at USD 700mio, now India seems getting USD 600 mio offer. In sense they're perhaps already bargaining. They are current users of Mirage 2K, thus already have enough infrastructure to support them.

 

[swerve]

The Gulf is notorious buying something with enough parts for decades. I bet India still want to bargain the deal, it is India after all, and known to be hard bargaining culture. However the choices for them for interim fighters are not that much. Especially facing situation of further delayment not only current Tejas Mk1/1A let alone Tejas Mk2 as planned Mirage 2K replacement.

Perhaps they can still bargain on the price, however those aircraft before being offer to Indonesia at USD 700mio, now India seems getting USD 600 mio offer. In sense they're perhaps already bargaining. They are current users of Mirage 2K, thus already have enough infrastructure to support them.

IIRC Qatar put its Mirage 2000s up for sale some years ago, with a large stock of spares & weapons. India showed an interest, but I remember it being reported that Indian negotiators offered to pay so little that the Qataris thought it was insulting & ended the negotiations. I think they said it was less than the value of the spares & weapons, which could also have been used on India's other Mirages.

Bargaining should be realistic, & appropriate to the nature of the goods & the parties. As I recall, the Qataris thought India was treating it like haggling in a street bazaar.

 

[swerve]

If the Indian Air Force just want a replacement for the An-32 (with max payload around 6700 kg, then ordering more Indian made C295 (max payload 7000+ kg) is the most logic choice, on top of the 56 already on order. But if they need a 18+ ton aircraft, then the C-130J is, like you already said, the most logic choice.

If they want a more capable aircraft in most respects than C-130J, & their own assembly line, C-390 probably makes more sense. It comes fitted for tanker use as standard, for example, & could be bought with as many tanker kits as India would like.

 

[koxinga]

Bargaining should be realistic, & appropriate to the nature of the goods & the parties. As I recall, the Qataris thought India was treating it like haggling in a street bazaar.

Indians see it as second hand goods, and someone trying to get rid of it. Therefore the bargain mentality. IMO, the Qataris have no problems letting the fleet rot. They can afford it.

Hence you see a gap in what both sides think they can achieve.

 

[swerve]

Yes, but offering less than the value of the spares & weapons was stupid, & I can see why the Qataris were offended. They weren't used, & other users of M2Ks would probably have been happy to buy them at a slight discount. Dassault might have bought the spares back, or brokered deals.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Yes, but offering less than the value of the spares & weapons was stupid, & I can see why the Qataris were offended. They weren't used, & other users of M2Ks would probably have been happy to buy them at a slight discount. Dassault might have bought the spares back, or brokered deals.

Maybe Pakistan is interested in Qatar's Mirage 2000s, as a satisfied and loyal Mirage III/5 user.....

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

AGENDA - AMCA's SUPERCRUISE

Different people speculate AMCA to Supercruise b/w Mach 1.2-1.4 with F414 engines & Mach 1.5-1.6 with JV engine producing 75 KN dry thust.
> On one side we have Mother Nature's unbeatable laws of PCM putting limits of performance - higher drag, higher KE required, higher complexity design.
> On the other side we have global engineers pushing for Speed (both cruising & maximum) -
Turboprop -> Turbojet/fan -> Ramjet -> Turbo-Ramjet -> Variable cycle adaptive engine
> KE required increases as square of velocity, looks like panic, but comes from Calorific value of researched fuels with secret sauce & ingredients - small volume but big kick, especially after compression.
> Currently SuCr is attached to Turbo-jet/fan, considered an "overkill", inefficient, gimmick, etc by many as per Performance studies on engine types. Some would say it is war-time mode/feature which it is.
But if nations're already prepared to do it in war-time since 3 decades & will continue in future also then what can civillians do?

Supercruise provides ability to -
- launch weapons to have higher range w/o increasing IRS of jet.
- Intercept targets better.
- Evade enemy's weapon.

In peace time, fighter jets fly subsonic due to multiple reasons -
- Sonic booms disturbs residential areas.
- Fuel efficiency. Typically, less/more throttle means less/more fuel flow means less/more thrust/speed/distance flown.

Jet engines like Turbo-jet/fan have their efficiency boundaries but still since decades scientists & engineers are working on better airframe design & engine to use same amount of fuel but achieve higher thrust/speed/distance travelled.

> Given any engine with an inlet diameter, it is upto designer how much thrust can be squeezed out. Engineers either do not know that limit or it is above top secret.
> 2 same jets with different wing & fuselage design but with same # & type of engine(s) will have different performance.

If we take 3 Supercruising jets - F-22 (SuCr M 1.8), Rafale (SuCr M 1.4), EF-2000 (SuCr M 1.5) & their engines F119, M-88-2, EJ-200 & compare with F414 then it is very difficult to find governing reason resulting in max dry thrust bcoz there are many permutations & combinations of individual engine parts design & performance.
I created a graph, manipulating the values up/down to bring the graph lines closer to visually compare better:


We see that -
> Turbine inlet temp. is a very low slope line. It takes a dip with EJ-200.
> Inlet diameter, inlet area, engine weight, volume, air mass flow show identical increasing trend.
> But, Engine length, dry thrust, dry T/W ratio, dry T/Vol ratio, Bypass ratio take a dip with F414.
So the big dip in Bypass ratio might have impacted dry thrust & then dry T/W ratio, dry T/Vol. ratio. I wonder if engine length also influenced it.
> # of compressor & turbine stages take a dip with EJ-200. This could have affected compression ratio also.
> F119's # length, inlet dia/area, body volume, weight, air mass flow jumps obviously.
But # of stages, compression ratio, fuel SFC, take a BIG dip but impacting its dry T/W & T/Vol ratios
STILL its dry thrust is like DOUBLE.

Fuel consumption is measured in units like g/KN/s or lb/lbf/hr, called SFC or Specific Fuel Consumption. But different people can use different metrics like fuel used as per airframe weight, distance travelled, etc.

F-22's F119 engine's SFC with inlet dia. 100cm at 100% power (116-120.3 KN) is around 17 g/KN/s.
2 engines, so F-22 SFC is 34 g/KN/s at 100% power & Sup.Cr. Mach 1.5-1.8 (514.5-617.4 m/s).
So 3.94-4Kg/s fuel for covering 514.5-617.4 m/s or 128.6-156.7 m/Kg or 6.38-7.77 gm/m.
Empty weight 19.7 T + 50% fuel 4.1 T + full IWB 8 AAMs 1.1 T = 24.9 tons
Airframe T/W ratio at 100% power = 2x(116 to 120.3)/9.8 /24.9 = 0.94 to 0.98
Fuel per ton = (3,940-4,000)/24.9 = 158.23-160.64 gm/s/T.
50% fuel 4.1 tons while supercruise will be depleted in 1,025-1040 seconds or 17-18 minutes covering 527-642 Kms.


GE F-414 engine's SFC with inlet dia. 79cm at 100% power (57.8-61.83 KN) is 20.5-23.25 g/KN/s depending upon model. 75 KN JV engine is planned.
2 engines, so AMCA SFC will be 41-46.5 g/KN/s at 100% power.
So 2.37-2.87Kg/s fuel will be used.
AMCA empty weight 12 T + 50% fuel 3.25 T + 4 Astr MK3 SFDR 0.88 T = 16.13 tons
T/W ratio at 100% power = 2x58/9.8 /16.13 = 0.73
Fuel per ton = (2,370-2,870)/16.13 = 146.93-177.92 gm/s/T.
let's assume that with 0.73 T/W AMCA can also supercruise at M 1.2 (411.6 m/s).
50% fuel 3.25 tons while on supercuise will be depleted in 1,132-1,371 seconds or 18-23 minutes covering 466-564 Kms.
When new engine with 75 KN dry thrust will be available then hopefully 6 AAMs will be carried.
T/W ratio at 100% power = 2x75/9.8 / (16.13 + 0.44) = 0.92
Then hopefully AMCA will supercruise around M 1.5


Rafale's M-88-2 engine's SFC with inlet dia. 70cm at 100% power (50KN) is 22.14 g/KN/s.
2 engines, so Rafale SFC is 44.28 g/KN/s at 100% power & Sup.Cr. Mach 1.4 (480.2 m/s).
So 2.21 Kg/s fuel for covering 480.2 m/s or 217.28 m/Kg or 4.6 gm/m.
To go this extra 59 m/Kg-fuel Vs F-35, the SFC is increased from 20.3 to 22.14 g/KN/s.

EF-2000's EJ-200 engine's SFC with inlet dia. 74cm at 100% power (60 KN) is 21-23 g/KN/s.
2 engines so EF-2000 SFC is 42-46 g/N/s at 100% power & Sup.Cr. Mach 1.5 (514.5 m/s).
so 2.52-2.76 Kg/s fuel for covering 514.5 m/s or 186.41-204.16 m/Kg or 4.9-5.36 gm/m.

So we see that Rafale with empty design weight 8.5 T, 492 sqft clipped delta wing & 50KN engine can supercruise at M 1.4
but F-18E/F with empty design weight 14.5 T, 500 sqft. trapezoidal wing & 58 KN engine cannot due to 6T weight increase due to carrier-ops MLG & other things & higher drag wing.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

I mentioned about DRAG where people panic a lot. We should dive little more into it.

Drag are of many types

Some drag increase with speed & some decrease, but total drag increase.

That's why most people panic even before calculating. Why the world is pushing for increasing cruise & max speed?

The propulsion performace of Turbo-fan is limited around Mach 1.6 aspergraph below. Yet we see F-22 SuCr at M 1.8 with F119 engnes whose SFC is lowest 17 gm/N/s at 100% throttle. So there is definitely something(s) classified.

(File:Specific-impulse-kk-20090105.png - Wikimedia Commons)
(File:Gas turbine efficiency.png - Wikimedia Commons)

That means if military is persistent on SuCr then we civillians are stuck with something somewhere, perhaps with engine efficiency & drag graphs are bothering us too much, while there are structural factors also.

We should keep in mind that objective, priorities of military & civil jets are different.
MoD & Air force also have budget & SOP for peace time Ops incl. pre-planned routes, responses,flight altitude, speed kkeping in mind min. fuel expenses, maintenance & spares charges, etc.
But design focuses on war time performance also.

Let's look at the collage of drag, the highlighted part of graph in green color.
Real world is not ideal but full of resistance, losses, still as wing sweep angle increases, the drag decreases drastically.
Coefficient of drag Cd & Fd Force of drag are different, just like (Cf=u) coefficient of ground friction & (F=u.M.g) ground friction force.

So just like ground force equation (F - Mg = Ma), we need Flight equation of motion. As per the scope of forums, we common people enthusiasts don't need complex 3-axis equation including roll, pitch, yaw, like Navier-Stokes equation, etc. But this kind of forum has to go on for 1-2 decades at least.
Let's take a basic example of level flight. Make corrections/alterations where you like.

But for our low IQ minds, we need a simplified formula for overall drag - The Drag equation

Fd increases as square of Velocity, but
the Cd of swept wing jet is 0.02 +/-
Air density at cruise altitudes is < 1 Kg/M^3. At 30Kft it is 0.458, at 50kft it is 0.186

NOTE - Make corrections/alterations as required.
Drag Force Equation Fd = (1/2) (Air density X Cd X Cross Section Area X Velocity^2)
Air density @ 40,000 feet = 0.3 Kg/m^3
Coefficient of drag Cd for wing sweel angle around 50 degrees = 0.02
Speed let's consider Mach 1.2 (411.6 m/s, round down to 410 m/s) which is considered bad for SuCr
Cross Section Area of AMCA at wingtip level, let's say = 8 m^2

Fd = (0.3 X 0.02 X 8 X 410 X 410)/2 = 4,034.4 N = 4.034 KN
If 2 F414 engines together produce 2x58 KN = 116 KN dry thrust
then net thrust = T - Fd = 112 KN, it is like an engine with 56 KN dry thrust
It is analogous to 116 people are pulling something forward & 4 people are trying pull behind.
Net result is 112 pulling forward. This is simple theoretical level-flight example. I am curious to know actual values.

Those who want deeper dive can include laws like conservation of momentum/energy/mass; equations of Navier-Stokes, Bernouli, Laplace, Euler, etc; Reynold's number, Critical Mach number, Stagnation pressure, etc, etc.

Practically the avionics computer of modern jet fighter is equivalent of compacted average Super-computer calculating many 3D equations every millisecond.
Computing power is measured in units like MIPS - Millions Instructions/Second & FLOPS - Floating Point Operations/Second).

So we see that real world physics will always have resistance but overall effect matters & as per that solutions or work-arounds are developed. Supercruise is war time feature & it will be used for reasons mentioned. The variable cycle engine will extend its usage.