Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Bhartiya sainik]

AGENDA - RAM (Radar Absorbent Material) for AMCA.

This is old news now. Our DoD organisations with some IITs have developed RAM paints, sheets named "Adrishya", "NiRaLa", etc, composite materials & working on geometric shaping starting with AMCA.
The RCS results would obviously be top secret.









There were some sheets also, somewhere on social media.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Before we talk further on shape, structure, RCS, etc of AMCA further, let's have a look of 3D CAD designs made by 5 people i have spotted so far :
1- Murli Yadav (social media ID not available)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/jon-arts.18541/)
2- Ankur Singh Chauhan (x.com/Anx450z)
(DFI - defenceforumindia.com/members/wahmanrespector.37183/)
3- Kuntal Biswas (x.com/Kuntal__biswas)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/16257/)
4- Satwik Sadhukhan (x.com/i_m_satwikk)
5- Harshal Pal (x.com/HarshalPal5)
(defenceforumindia.com/members/31984/)

If anyone of you know them & other artists including international ones, please invite them here.

I will post only selected pics, rest can be checked on their Twitter, DFI, etc posts. Some are also present on 3D sites like Turbosquid, Artstation, Sketchfab, Behance, etc.
===========================================================
Murli Yadav



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Satwik Sadhukhan




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harshal Pal




---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ankur Singh Chauhan



CONTINUED IN NEXT POST DUE TO SUDDEN REDUCTION IN ATTACHMENT LIMIT....

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

....CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST DUE TO SUDDEN REDUCTION IN ATTACHMENT

Kuntal Biswas

Older design




Revised design

 

[Ananda]

Boost for IAF’s fighter fleet! Sukhoi 30-MKI jets likely to get new engines in Rs 21,000 crore deal - Times of India

India Business News: The Defence Ministry is planning to sign a nearly Rs 21,000 crore deal for procuring engines for the Su-30MKI fleet, to be manufactured by HAL. Additi

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

HAL got order for 230 engine for Su-30MKI. HAL already got license to build the engine, and according to the article the engine will be build fully within HAL facility. The total need of the engine will be around 950 to support IAF SU-30MKI.

With Russia-Ukraine war still continue strong, perhaps HAL can also find export market to other Flankers users to support parts and supplies MRO jobs.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Boost for IAF’s fighter fleet! Sukhoi 30-MKI jets likely to get new engines in Rs 21,000 crore deal - Times of India

India Business News: The Defence Ministry is planning to sign a nearly Rs 21,000 crore deal for procuring engines for the Su-30MKI fleet, to be manufactured by HAL. Additi

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

HAL got order for 230 engine for Su-30MKI. HAL already got license to build the engine, and according to the article the engine will be build fully within HAL facility. The total need of the engine will be around 950 to support IAF SU-30MKI.

With Russia-Ukraine war still continue strong, perhaps HAL can also find export market to other Flankers users to support parts and supplies MRO jobs.

Still AL-31. Why not AL-41?

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

SHAPE OF AIRCRAFT, CHANGE IN ORIENTATION, AREAS OF APPLICATION OF RAM ON AMCA



In war time, Fighter jets might plan a sortie waypoints as per fixed assets like airbases, SAMs, terrain, etc. So the jet can maintain flight at certain altitude & heading to have minimum RCS towards certain areas.


But the dynamic assets like moving ground SAMs, AWACS, enemy fighter jets can force to tactically alter the plan, waypoints & maneuver in roll, pitch, yaw axis which increases RCS towards certain angles.


The 5gen jets still use rudders but canted at angle matching the fuselage side wall. from the diagrams above, on rolling & banking, the surface area at that angle increases a lot for few seconds. The entire body is reflecting some RF energy.
This may compel to apply RAM on entire ventral/bottom side.

Earlier in capitalist country like USA, private companies developed their version of RAS & RAM whose quality would differ & cost of application & maintenance would be very high. Special machines would be needed to wrap the jet with RAM tapes, attach RAm panels, or paint the RAM.
Today multiple nations have developed their own RAS, RAM with easier application & reduced cost.

But bcoz of nature of RF radiation is not simple, & ultimately a fighter jet has to do so much maneuvering, sometimes to evade enemy jets & missiles, that RAM may have to be applied almost everywhere. So people usually prioritise only front RCS but side, top, back RCS now would become equal priority.

 

[Ananda]

AL-31. Why not AL-41?

As the article doesn't speculate much on this, my guess is more because that's the license that HAL get from Russian. However if the article stating they got license to build from ground up including raw materials (means I suspect metallurgical license), it is in my opinion quite substantial license for HAL.

 

[koxinga]

It's a much simpler reason; IAF operates SU-30MKIs; these are powered by AL-31s.

There are no reasons why they would want to get a AL-41 license at this stage, since they can't used them at all and you can't exactly just swap them into SU-30s. Only the latest SM version has this option. There should be engineering changes needed to backfit them into older variants.

edit: this article also explains other reasons that led to the decision to keep the 31s.

Russia Upgrades Su-30 Engine, But India Opts for Indigenous Support – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

It's a much simpler reason; IAF operates SU-30MKIs; these are powered by AL-31s.

There are no reasons why they would want to get a AL-41 license at this stage, since they can't used them at all and you can't exactly just swap them into SU-30s. Only the latest SM version has this option. There should be engineering changes needed to backfit them into older variants.

edit: this article also explains other reasons that led to the decision to keep the 31s.

Russia Upgrades Su-30 Engine, But India Opts for Indigenous Support – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

The job of medical surgeons are seen as something alien by other citizens. Same thing with job of engineers. All high valued study based jobs are challenging. But engineers are habituated. If MiG-29 UPG shape can change then it is no big deal that Su-30MKI can be modified to fit AL-41 engine.
Reading the attached article, the supply chain cannot remain unchanged for lifetime. There can be more employment opportunities. But If industry doesn't adapt to technology evolution then nation will suffer in every way. Actually our nation has been suffering since decades now. Russia is a frozen popsicle country, its currency value is almost same as ours, yet it refuses to bend before West & making as many types of engines as required. For us it is a collective failure & embarresment for GoI/MoD/DoD/GTRE.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Will AMCA have Towed Decoy?

 

[koxinga]

The job of medical surgeons are seen as something alien by other citizens. Same thing with job of engineers. All high valued study based jobs are challenging. But engineers are habituated. If MiG-29 UPG shape can change then it is no big deal that Su-30MKI can be modified to fit AL-41 engine.
Reading the attached article, the supply chain cannot remain unchanged for lifetime. There can be more employment opportunities. But If industry doesn't adapt to technology evolution then nation will suffer in every way. Actually our nation has been suffering since decades now. Russia is a frozen popsicle country, its currency value is almost same as ours, yet it refuses to bend before West & making as many types of engines as required. For us it is a collective failure & embarresment for GoI/MoD/DoD/GTRE.

No one is disputing the technical feasibility or Indian capabilities; the Russians are already offering it as a option for the latest SU-30SMs.

It is largely a question of budget and timing. IAF has a large installed base of AL-31, >300. Licensed production of AL-41, plus full retrofit of their existing will take years (2030s/2040s) with significant budget required both for retooling the production line and existing MKIs. In return, the performance capabilities is better... yes but late 2030s/2040?

Increasing the indigenisation level of the AL-31 along with the avionics of the MKIs (mid life upgrades) addresses the point about capability building in a measured but effective pace. (as opposed to unrealistic moonshots that GTRE sold to the establishment the 1980s/1990s).

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

No one is disputing the technical feasibility or Indian capabilities; the Russians are already offering it as a option for the latest SU-30SMs.

It is largely a question of budget and timing. IAF has a large installed base of AL-31, >300. Licensed production of AL-41, plus full retrofit of their existing will take years (2030s/2040s) with significant budget required both for retooling the production line and existing MKIs. In return, the performance capabilities is better... yes but late 2030s/2040?

Increasing the indigenisation level of the AL-31 along with the avionics of the MKIs (mid life upgrades) addresses the point about capability building in a measured but effective pace. (as opposed to unrealistic moonshots that GTRE sold to the establishment the 1980s/1990s).

Butin the end if war erupts suddenly then who will suffer?
Reasons for doing & NOT doing something can be numerous.
It has always been question of budget & timing for every country. To bring in money into country for funding, all types of industries have to produce globally competing products for exports.
If AL-41 production & retrofit will take 25 years then it is proof that the facilities need to expand. It is now or never bcoz all 4.5gen jets are iving their last 2-3 decades.

> Most populous country.
> Sub-continental in size.
>Some of those successful nations can be superimposed together on ours.
>Unemployment increasing.
>ISRO shining but DoD lagging.
> Many platforms are showcased at expos. MKI replacement also has to be thought today.
>IAF chief said there is roadmap of 6gen
> Relliance, Tata, Adani, etc are eager to bag deal for MRFA.
>JV engine focussing only on medium F414 type engine.
But no industrial expansion for other homegrown tech plans

3rd world countries have become the junkyard to dispose Western & Russian stuff.
Today's tax paying citizens are asking why we are not in top tier of leader nations, what can we do to lessen the gap a.s.a.p.

 

[koxinga]

Butin the end if war erupts suddenly then who will suffer?
Reasons for doing & NOT doing something can be numerous.

Yes, and an asteroid can drop from the sky and it will be naught. If you have not already realised, this is not the forum for you to be ranting about woe be my beloved India. Stick to current developments, and future developments grounded facts or sound reasonings.

 

[Ananda]

What wrong having AL-31 license? If Hal got this one complete end to end, in which enable them to create high level of Indian localisation, then it is still good deal. It give Hal and it's domestic chain, know how on manufacturing parts and designs turbofan core.

Nobody going to give their latest engine license to others. GE give Volvo license on GE-404 for Volvo to develop their own derivative, after they are moving on to GE-414. In some way similar with Saturn give AL-31 license after they're already comfortable with AL-41 production. However doesn't mean GE-404 and AL-31 is already outdated. They're still in comfortable usage for current conditions perhaps until next decade.

India own Kaveri still being rejected by India AF. So whether Kaveri now going to use M88 core, or involve with GE-414 production chains, it is still good track on giving India own chain, exposure on Turbofan production. This is in the end still good way to catch up with turbofan environment. Whether in Aerospace, Aeroengine, or other Industry, getting involved with mature supply chains is essential to catch up toward building your own design and production chains.

 

[Ananda]

HAL, SAFHAL sign contract to develop engine for heavy lift helicopter

Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) announced it has signed a contract to develop and produce a new powerplant for its Indian Multi Role Helicopter (IMRH) programme.

www.janes.com

HAL and Safran sign contract on developing engine for the Indian Multirole Helicopter. The engine according to previous HAL announcement, will be base on Safran Aneto engine. Thus basically it will be Aneto derivative. The work seems going to be done by both companies JV SAFHAL.

Safran's Aneto-1K helicopter engine certified in China

, Safran Helicopter Engines has received certification for its Aneto-1K from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). This crucial milestone paves the way for the Leonardo AW189K's introduction into the Chinese civil market. This validation of type certificate (VTC) by China succeeds...

www.safran-group.com

The helicopter program it self aim to build Indian own Mi-17 replacement. If India able to fulfill this, will be considerable market from India itself at the beginning. This can give commercially viable project, even before talking potential export.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Yes, and an asteroid can drop from the sky and it will be naught. If you have not already realised, this is not the forum for you to be ranting about woe be my beloved India. Stick to current developments, and future developments grounded facts or sound reasonings.

Asteroid! You have good sense of humor. Some asteroids already fell in 1947/62/65/71, 1980s/90s/2000s.
> I use emojies as plain text is boring but I wasn't RANTING exactly. Those points are the "ground facts"of our country. On every forum, most Indian tax paying citizens are frustrated with our defence progress, i mean own own indegenous creations. But some members have friends or relatives in GoI/DoD, so they don't wan't to tolerate any alternate opinions.
> I am a low IQ Sr. IT engineer, aged 40+, having worked with Wipro, Accenture, IBM, DELL-EMC. So i've SOME considerable sound reasoning.

> I respect your opinion on AL-31 but being a techie myself i feel that AL-41 is not a big deal when smaller countries are making their entire engines.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

What wrong having AL-31 license? If Hal got this one complete end to end, in which enable them to create high level of Indian localisation, then it is still good deal. It give Hal and it's domestic chain, know how on manufacturing parts and designs turbofan core.

Nobody going to give their latest engine license to others. GE give Volvo license on GE-404 for Volvo to develop their own derivative, after they are moving on to GE-414. In some way similar with Saturn give AL-31 license after they're already comfortable with AL-41 production. However doesn't mean GE-404 and AL-31 is already outdated. They're still in comfortable usage for current conditions perhaps until next decade.

India own Kaveri still being rejected by India AF. So whether Kaveri now going to use M88 core, or involve with GE-414 production chains, it is still good track on giving India own chain, exposure on Turbofan production. This is in the end still good way to catch up with turbofan environment. Whether in Aerospace, Aeroengine, or other Industry, getting involved with mature supply chains is essential to catch up toward building your own design and production chains.

Nothing wrong in AL-31 license. I'm not saying AL-31 is outdated & unusable but still it is old engine now. Russia is moving to AL-51/Isdilye-30 as we all know. And we have future projects also. So even if AL-41 ToT wont be given today but may be after 10/15 years.
Once the parts suppliers are informed about one product then they can adapt to another one also. If someone can explain how different AL-41 is from AL-31 that would be informative.
We, i mean our suppliers need to "catch up" fast. So many tech grads are passing out every year, good opportunity to absorb them.
AFAIK Kaveri is being rejected due to materials issue. There are multiple parameters of engine in OPR, BPR, TIT, EPR, etc. Some people also say its BPR is very low.

 

[swerve]

...Nobody going to give their latest engine license to others. GE give Volvo license on GE-404 for Volvo to develop their own derivative, after they are moving on to GE-414. ...

Gripen first flew in 1988, five years before the F414 first ran. Waiting for F414 would have delayed Gripen entry into service. The Swedish government didn't want that. So, it wasn't a case of GE not wanting to give Volvo a license: it wasn't sought.

When F414 was chosen for JAS39E, IIRC Volvo had been lobbying for its own improved F404.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

A good video of IAF's S/w Development Institute. It showcases Su-30MKI, LCA, MiG-29, turboprop trainer, AWACS.
AVM K N Santosh, the commander of S/w dev. institute, said that MLU is supposed to happen every 10 years. He believes in achieving 100% self-relliance.
Hats off to my fellow computer/electronics guys. I wish if i was good enough scorer to get into such priviledged place.

 

[koxinga]

Any new engine (e.g AL-41) will only be feasible if the government of India is willing to commit to 1) an reengineering program for their existing MKIs, or 2) powering a future platform e.g AMCA which is projected to use F414.

As for anything newer, ( izdeliye 30 ) it is way to early and not mature.