Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Based on various Indian forums, media and online sources, Tejas Mk1 is intended to replace Mig 21, 23, and 27, while this article seems point out Tejas Mk2 is intended to replace practically everything else asside Su-30 MKI and off course Rafale.

Curious though, the plan seems make sense enough as Tejas Mk1 for LCA, Tejas Mk2 for MRCA (as some Indian media designated the Mk2), and Su-30MKI as Heavy Fighters. However why still this talk for more Rafale or F-16V Indian version (F-21) or even F-15EX ?

At the time where everyone want to consolidate their fighters number, where Rafale, or F-21 or even F-15EX really fit the plan ?
Why not stick with Tejas Mk1, Mk2 and Su-30MKI? Why India AF want to go back with numerous Fighters type again ? Just wondering if Political interest playing on this.
 
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Why not stick with Tejas Mk1, Mk2 and Su-30MKI? Why India AF want to go back with numerous Fighters type again ? Just wondering if Political interest playing on this.
The question that the Indian Air Force need to answer to the paying public is this: if Rafale is the real deal, why were they bulking up on Su-30MKIs?
 

the road runner

Active Member
The question that the Indian Air Force need to answer to the paying public is this: if Rafale is the real deal, why were they bulking up on Su-30MKIs?
I think IAF major problem is the dwindling numbers of Fighter squadrons...Government has always stated they want 44 Squadrons
The IAF has 32ish Squadrons,and numbers seem to still be dropping ...
SU30MKI were probably a good decision to bulk up on as the heavy weight fighter
Lets see how Tejas pans out ...i honestly think this will drag on and the numbers of new Tejas will not cover the older aircraft that they will withdraw from service
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

If after this some IAF brass or Indian Politician that still question the readiness of Tejas to take over completely Mig 21 in IAF, I really lost my word.

Mig 21 already can not provide IAF with realiable front line defense anymore: (latest incident with Pakistan F-16, no matter how far the Indian media and fanboys want to twist it, it's clearly significantly outmatch with Pakistan F-16). No matter the complainers put, Tejas Mk1a clearly will be much better then Mig 21.

Mig 21 also clearly become more and more as Widow makers, how much more IAF want to lost their Pilots ? Is not like Fighter Pilots is cheap to train and create.

I'm not going to talk and wasting time debating about which is better as back bone for an Air Force, Tejas or JF-17. Frankly speaking I'm tired reading Pak and Indian media claim and counter claim of which's fighter better between both. Let alone Pak and Indian fanboys catfights. However one thing for sure, Pakistan with significantly less resources in India just continue the program progresivelly, and improved JF-17, along the way with their Chinese partner.

While Indian AF and politicians continue raising the bar for tejas, that creating continue barrier for Tejas to be fully implemented operationally. Resulted continues lossing time for IAF. Are they really want to continue maintaining their love to Mig 21 no matter how much time fly away ?
 

Sandhi Yudha

Well-Known Member
Those MiG-21s are obsolete and worn out, and the HAL Tejas LCA is specially created to replace the MiG-21, as a light combat aircraft with short range.

Besides that claiming that the MiG-21 is capable to defend the airspace against F-16, is as smart as telling that the J-6 can easily fight of a Mirage 2000.

So Indian politicians causing any delay in the production and delivery of the Tejas are just sabotaging their own airforce.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
Besides that claiming that the MiG-21 is capable to defend the airspace against F-16, is as smart as telling
Has any Indian politician made that claim?

Also, the MiG-21 as is widely known is intended to be replaced by Tejas but until that time comes it's intended role is as a point defence interceptor alongside more capable friendly assets [similar to Tejas when it takes over] to mitigate inherent limitations when pited against more capable enemy assets. By right the 2019 engagement should have been fought between a Su-30MKI and a F-16 but circumstances led to a MiG-21 being involved.

On the MiG-21 shootdown was it actually because of an aged and inferior platform per see or was vecause the F-16 had better SA and the MiG-21 was unable to avoid the AMRAAM because of a lack of an effective self defence means? Can we say for certain that a Su-30MKI would have fared better against the incoming AMRAAM?

A question I'm interested in is whether MiG-21s are able to share a common picture with radars mounted on the Su-30MKI and other assets to initiate a BVR engagement?
 
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Ananda

The Bunker Group
MiG-21 as is widely known is intended to be replaced by Tejas but until that time comes it's intended role is as a point defence interceptor alongside more capable friendly assets [similar to Tejas when it takes over]
The problem with that plan is taking too long to implement because too much changes thinking.


This is example on potential thinking on changing Mig 21. In the end they still stay with Tejas, but the delay cost more than a decade. In the end they introduce Tejas with gradual progression from Mk1, Mk1a and later on Mk2.

Something they should have done in the first decade of this century. Even Tejas Mk1 is already better then their latest version of Mig21, better sensors, and most important newer Airframes.

This is what Chinese done with Pakistan with JF-17. Instead changing threshold parameters like Indian on Tejas, they doing progressing development for JF-17 by each batch. Something that Indian in the end doing it with Tejas also after decades of tinkering around.

Well Indian defense procurement Projects in some way is much bigger example of Indonesian defense procurement Projects. All changes come from Politically motivated choices from one administration to another, and wasting time toward circling back to original idea in the end.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, in this area Pakistan has a much better record. The Pakistanis have recognised that their technical & industrial resources are limited & adjusted their ambitions to fit their abilities. They've been willing to buy secondhand, for example. They've done very well with Mirage IIIs & Vs, sweeping up retired aircraft & any accompanying spares & cannibalising them to keep a respectable fleet operational, & kept it relevant with carefully targeted upgrades such as the Grifo radar.

India, on the other hand, has tended to try to run without first making sure it can walk, & made it worse with a stop-start approach. This has shown up in various areas, including aircraft & tanks. It's also behaved arrogantly towards suppliers, both actual & potential, expecting them to make concessions that would result in sales losing money, then seemed surprised when they withdrew their offers.

India was in a good position to do with Mirage 2000 what Pakistan did with earlier Mirages, but as far as I can see it was seen as beneath India's dignity. It blew away the possibility of becoming the sole manufacturer of the M2000 & developing upgrades by re-opening negotiations with other suppliers as Dassault was closing the production line, then complained when the French declined to re-tender the M2000. It imposed conditions the UK wasn't legally able to fulfil on the purchase of ex-RN Sea Harriers, so didn't get them. It held off requesting more C-17s until the production line was closing down. It negotiated for Qatar's M2000s (fairly new, very well maintained, complete with weapons & large spares stocks) as if was a deal for a beaten-up old car & it could dictate the price. The attitude seems to be that suppliers should be so grateful for an order or even the chance of one from a country of India's importance that they should be willing to forego such mundane things as profit.

The Jaguar fiasco is a good example. Weight growth having rendered a thrust increase highly desirable, India invited tenders. RR offered an upgrade & rebuild of existing engines, giving enough thrust to maintain acceptable performance for the remaining lifetime of the airframes. Relatively low price, very low risk. Honeywell offered to fit brand new engines of a new sub-type. Potentially higher performing but more expensive & much higher risk. The Indians then changed the rules of the competition to exclude remanufactured engines. RR withdrew rather than change its bid & nobody else tendered, leaving the Indians with a sole-source risky offer which after ten years of faffing around fell through, forcing the withdrawal of the Jaguar from service earlier than planned & leaving the IAF short of strike aircraft.

And so on . . .

The thing is, India has far more technical resources than Pakistan, & should be leaving Pakistan in the dust. But it's nowhere near as far ahead as it should be.
 
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STURM

Well-Known Member
An advantage the Pakistanis have is that the military has much more influence. It is able to make decisions and exert influence in a way its Indian counterpart is simply unable to. Pakistan has also less money and does not have the luxury of making major mistakes.

In India the miltary has to deal not only with the massive beauracracy which is the government but also the local industry which has a lot of say. India also has to cater for the need to deal not only with Pakistan but also with China.unlike Pakistan which is now able to focus less on internal security and divert resources and energy towards a single threat, India.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Yes, the C-17 fiasco seems to have been because the IAF's request (submitted with an eye to the expected end of production, with enough lead time) got bogged down in bureaucracy until too late. IIRC by the time the paperwork was ready there was only only one which hadn't been ordered & the production line had shut down & was being dismantled, but the MoD still put in a request to order several, & rather than accept the only one that was available asked if it was possible to get the full number (why not take that one first, then try to talk about more?). Then someone else bought the last one.

The Harrier fiasco looks as if the Indian MoD, navy & suppliers, & even different project groups within the MoD, weren't talking to each other. India was negotiating the details of an upgrade to its Sea Harriers, including a new radar & matching BVR AAMs, both from Israel. The UK offered Sea Harriers without radars, which could have slotted straight in to that upgrade. Obviously more sensible than having two distinct fleets, each of single figures. But the MoD demanded the Blue Vixen radars & AMRAAMs that the Harriers had in UK service, although the UK couldn't sell the AMRAAMs (American) without US clearance, which the UK didn't have. Internet fora were full of Indians complaining about British refusal to sell the AMRAAMs. Doh!
 

STURM

Well-Known Member
Very interesting discussion with a very high spirited 78 year old former IAF pilot who clocked 4,000 hours on the MiG-21. As he makes clear he was very fond of the aircraft and it was a popular and appreciated [still is to a large extent] asset in the IAF. Overall it has a mixed reputation which is largely to do with its combat performance with various air arms but for its time was pretty impressive from a technical perspective and was taken.seriously by NATO.

 
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TayJG

Member
Woah, need to get some Indians on this forum, I want to talk about Tejas Mk2. :D Last post in September 2022.
 

TayJG

Member
What do folks think is the current status of Tejas Mk2? Probably still a design on paper and maybe some kind of models have been put through a wind tunnel?
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group

Video on some Aircraft on display at Aero India that open Yesterday. This as any defence exhibit shown not only What India use today, but also what potentially use in future.



However big news that being talk by Indian media is pair of F-35A that make debut on entering Indian defense exhibition.



Indian domestics MIC also come out strong on their products, as part of Modi's administration ambitions to increase not only domestics sourcing but also potential export. Tejas Mk2 seems going to be commited as backbones of Indian AF fleet, while their ambitions for their own 5th gen still shown on latest interations on MRCA.


Rosoboron reportedly going to bring SU-57 in India Aero, however so far Russian display mostly represents by current Su-30MKI.
 
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