Indian Military Aviation; News, Updates & Discussions

[Ananda]

I'm not saying AL-31 is outdated & unusable but still it is old engine now.

With their experience toward AL-31, China then developing their own WS-10. Perhaps should look on that perspective. Experience on building from bottom up of one Turbofan, is exposure to build your own version later on.

When F414 was chosen for JAS39E, IIRC Volvo had been lobbying for its own improved F404.

Yes, that's why I said nobody going to give license, especially end to end license including the setting up licensed own supply chain, for their latest tech. You have point on Sweden wants a ready engine to be licensed. However knowing licensing their engine will give Volvo chances to build their own version, I doubt in the late 90's GE want to give or let Volvo involved with their F414, unless on as part of Junior Partner on their overall control chains.

It is not only in Aero engine Industry, but practically in overall Industry. From commercial, consumer, military, etc. I haven't seen anyone willing to give end to end license toward their latest tech.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

With their experience toward AL-31, China then developing their own WS-10. Perhaps should look on that perspective. Experience on building from bottom up of one Turbofan, is exposure to build your own version later on.

Yes, that's why I said nobody going to give license, especially end to end license including the setting up licensed own supply chain, for their latest tech. You have point on Sweden wants a ready engine to be licensed. However knowing licensing their engine will give Volvo chances to build their own version, I doubt in the late 90's GE want to give or let Volvo involved with their F414, unless on as part of Junior Partner on their overall control chains.

It is not only in Aero engine Industry, but practically in overall Industry. From commercial, consumer, military, etc. I haven't seen anyone willing to give end to end license toward their latest tech.

So who's stopping world's most populous country with so many tech colleges? Like WS-10, that's what we should also have done with AL-31 long back. R&D should not stop.
I just wanna know - Has there been any official news that we asked for AL-41 & Russia denied it? Let them not give AL-41 license today but after few years. We have operated so many types of jets in different quantities with different engines. IMO, we just need a better engine for last MLU & future R&D. AL-51 will mature soon.
F-16IN was offered with F110-GE-132A engine. We rejected the jet but did we ask for the engine?

We all have read Industrial Management & Economics subjects in school, college. We have surplus tech & MBA grads. But in our country there are too many reasons & justifications to stretch & delay things bcoz of social, political corruption, lack of vison & initiative. People simply don't realize that 30-40 years ago also we laggeg by 30-40 years & today also we are lagging by 30-40 years. Jet engine is a component but EU has decided to leap an entire airframe by skipping a generation. They are just the size of our states.
Every person in GoI/MoD/DoD should keep an image in mind of certain countries superimposed on Bharat.
Nations like - Sweden, France, S.Korea, Israel, etc.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

A collage of diagrams of EW antennas, GPS, SATCOM, Radar altimeter, TACAN, RWR, IFF, VHF/UHF, L-band, data link (IFDL/MADL).

The diagrams say "preliminary" so final positions may change.



The following is collage of F-22's & F-35's sensors & antennas:

 

[koxinga]

So who's stopping world's most populous country with so many tech colleges? Like WS-10, that's what we should also have done with AL-31 long back. R&D should not stop.
I just wanna know - Has there been any official news that we asked for AL-41 & Russia denied it?

Why don't you tell us, given how invested you are on this topic and India?

Or it is never about the answer but a plank for you to continue about how great/smart/better India is to the rest of Europe/world put together and therefore nothing is impossible etc. etc.

Every person in GoI/MoD/DoD should keep an image in mind of certain countries superimposed on Bharat.
Nations like - Sweden, France, S.Korea, Israel, etc.

I have nothing against India or Indians per say, but posting something like this doesn't add any value or knowledge but puts other countries down is the definition of aggrandizing.

 

[Ananda]

Modernisation of Indian Su-30MKI fighters includes engine replacement with the AL-41F-1S engine – RuAviation

The Indian Ministry of Defence has decided to modernise its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters. The work will be carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)

ruavia.su

Why asking Russia denied India on AL-41 ? Simple googling already shown it is India who refuse AL-41. So I don't know why you ask this, when the answer is available wide?

There's enough opinion and talk in Indian forums and media like this one below, that's also explain why India want to stick with AL-31.

Russia Upgrades Su-30 Engine, But India Opts for Indigenous Support – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

OPINION : AL-31FP: Can India make this engine its own? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Most on this forums already knows the capabilities of India, thus whether India want to develop their own upgrade version of AL-31, or continue development Kaveri, or decide to move toward licensing F414, is up to Indian decision makers. So no need to talk on how big India is, how many research infrastructure India has, no body underestimate India. However also India need to address it's own shortcomings.

Every nation has their own potential and shortcomings. Also not everyone will be happy on the decision they are taking, including domestic audiences.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Why don't you tell us, given how invested you are on this topic and India?

Or it is never about the answer but a plank for you to continue about how great/smart/better India is to the rest of Europe/world put together and therefore nothing is impossible etc. etc.

I have nothing against India or Indians per say, but posting something like this doesn't add any value or knowledge but puts other countries down is the definition of aggrandizing.

Buddy, I think there is misunderstanding b/w us. let's try to clear the fog.
> Kindly share a brief intro about yourself. Are you not Indian? I gave my intro earlier. Again i'm introducing - mid-aged 40+, IT engineer, low IQ, military enthusiasts since school days in 1990s.
> I share pics, diagrams, basic calculations. What more value-add & knowledge are you looking for? How much more invested any member can be on a casual chat forum after office, watching family, doing house work? What are your expectations from other members?
> On casual chat forums people discuss their opinion, emotions, analysis, etc. If disagree then we can do it politely or ignore & move on.
> How you thought i'm putting other countries down by superimposing their map on India's map? On the contrary most citizens likeme are frustrated by the political & industrial scams in our country. Some chief ministers of state would neither prove their governance nor they let private sector industries. We have global CEOs but in our country there are many problems.
> So let's not get impulsive & personal here with strangers. Members can be of any age & qualification, experience, comprehension level.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Modernisation of Indian Su-30MKI fighters includes engine replacement with the AL-41F-1S engine – RuAviation

The Indian Ministry of Defence has decided to modernise its fleet of Su-30MKI fighters. The work will be carried out by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL)

ruavia.su

Why asking Russia denied India on AL-41 ? Simple googling already shown it is India who refuse AL-41. So I don't know why you ask this, when the answer is available wide?

There's enough opinion and talk in Indian forums and media like this one below, that's also explain why India want to stick with AL-31.

Russia Upgrades Su-30 Engine, But India Opts for Indigenous Support – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

OPINION : AL-31FP: Can India make this engine its own? – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Most on this forums already knows the capabilities of India, thus whether India want to develop their own upgrade version of AL-31, or continue development Kaveri, or decide to move toward licensing F414, is up to Indian decision makers.

I'm asking bcoz after office, giving time to family, doing some house work, a 40+ aged person has very less time for hobbies & leisure.
There are so many technologies, platforms, products. How much googling a person will do? Some things you share, some things others will share, that's how forums work.
I know you are an old, knowledgeable member, that's another reason i asked.
There was a time in my 20s & 30s when i used to follow many channels like following:



Now that level of enthusiasm is not possible for mid-aged people. Can't subscribe to all channels & watch every video. And although i am part of many forums but i can't watch every thread & check every notification. I do go through last few pages & posts which look informative.

So no need to talk on how big India is, how many research infrastructure India has, no body underestimate India. However also India need to address it's own shortcomings.
Every nation has their own potential and shortcomings. Also not everyone will be happy on the decision they are taking, including domestic audiences.

Buddy, this is casual tech chat forum, not the UN where we have to diplomatically defend everything. It is not about underestimating or overestimating but ultimate result in a given timeline & the outcome if sudden war happens.
Every nation has potential but our nation seems to have too many shortcomings - social, political, economical, etc. Even in USA, EU nations, Japan, S.Korea, there are citizens divided in their opinion on govt. decisions. So we should stop expressing ourselves on forums?
For example, i have worked in IT industry with certain companies/projects. I noticed the problems & reasons why we dont have an OS like MS Windows, Apple iOS, Linux, VMware, etc; switches, routers, firewalls, etc like Cisco makes; servers like DELL, HP makes; microchips like AMD, Intel makes, etc.
Same case with automotive industry, airways, railways, heavy machines, consumer electronics, etc.
If you are experienced professional then you have your observations & experience.
If we had all these globally competing products then we could fund our R&D for so many things.
Every tax paying citizen has the right to raise concerns, question, express.
The ultimate concern is that some countries developed after World War with far less human & other resources but our country's pace is not up to the mark.

 

[Meriv90]

Buddy, this is casual tech chat forum, not the UN where we have to diplomatically defend everything.

Not really, from the forums i frequent this one is one of the most "serious" ones asking always for sources.

My advice: There is no correlation on geographic dimension and development of a country. (Think Switzerland vs Mongolia).

On the contrary, most often if you got resources you end up in a dutch disease situation. (Congratz to you Aussies that were able to avoid it)

Second point. Same for "humans", it is like you are counting them like a quantity resource, when most often is a quality matter. I disagree with most of BigZucchini writes, but there are clear reasons why 50% of economic nobel award winners are Jew.

It isnt how many resources nor how many persons you have. Korea had neither of the two. Do you know what was the first export to reach the billions mark? Human hair. Look where they are now.

The answer is pretty simple Institutions and Culture.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Not really, from the forums i frequent this one is one of the most "serious" ones asking always for sources.

My advice: There is no correlation on geographic dimension and development of a country. (Think Switzerland vs Mongolia).

On the contrary, most often if you got resources you end up in a dutch disease situation. (Congratz to you Aussies that were able to avoid it)

Second point. Same for "humans", it is like you are counting them like a quantity resource, when most often is a quality matter. I disagree with most of BigZucchini writes, but there are clear reasons why 50% of economic nobel award winners are Jew.

It isnt how many resources nor how many persons you have. Korea had neither of the two. Do you know what was the first export to reach the billions mark? Human hair. Look where they are now.

The answer is pretty simple Institutions and Culture.

And hence i also asked for source as i can't google everything all the time. Crime & corruption are everywhere & cannot be diplomatically defended.
I appreciate your advice & i respect your perception but world is in grey shades, what to do?
I'm also talking about institutions & culture. We are living in a result oriented world.
Economics is a vast field & there is no ISO standard yet to measure performance of countries, hence many ways of comparing. As we all know that -
- literacy rate is measured.
- Then how many schools, colleges in different streams are there across the country, is documented.
- Then how many grads, post grads are absorbed in the industry.
- Then unemployment rate is calculated.
- Then people can see that which country has invested how much in R&D & invented/pioneered how many things in how much time.
- Some people support Communist economy (everything for people, limited wealth); some support Capitalism (free market, sky is limit), some support Socialist or mixed economy (like India, with govt. regulation when & where required).

Just like you gave qualitative example of Israel, S.Korea, same thing i have said but it seems it was misunderstood.
If EU (European UNION) was 1 country & all its nations were states then? Practically there have common currency Euro, people can move freely across,
What if Indian states in 1947 chose to be independent? Although i'm not in favor of that , but many separatist minded people are there in many of our states, some funded by foreighners. In that case India would have been like EU.
So these kind of comparisons will keep happening till eternity.
Every citizen has his/her satisfaction & dissatisfaction, opinion, questions like
- Why we are not among leader nations?
- How many decades will it take to parallel USA, EU, Russia, Japan, etc in different fields?
- When will India be called a developed country?
- When we will make critical tech & export to the world? etc.

 

[koxinga]

Buddy, I think there is misunderstanding b/w us. let's try to clear the fog.
> Kindly share a brief intro about yourself. Are you not Indian? I gave my intro earlier. Again i'm introducing - mid-aged 40+, IT engineer, low IQ, military enthusiasts since school days in 1990s.

Why would you assume I am Indian? As for myself, I made this assumption because you post only on this thread and nothing else.

Is that an important critiera to engage?

> I share pics, diagrams, basic calculations. What more value-add & knowledge are you looking for? How much more invested any member can be on a casual chat forum after office, watching family, doing house work? What are your expectations from other members?

I think your earlier post on AMCA's RCS, engine performance, kinematics are good, except that the majority of those are speculative, when little official facts have emerged.

A little speculation is fine as it allows one to explore the situation, but since there are little actual facts, threads can often degenerate pages of opinons that doesn't really advance any knowledge or relation to reality. I'm not a mod but I've seen in happen so I get why they are strict on this.

The forum rules are here: Forum Rules.

I would hesitate to call this a casual chat forum.

> How you thought i'm putting other countries down by superimposing their map on India's map?

On the contrary most citizens likeme are frustrated by the political & industrial scams in our country. Some chief ministers of state would neither prove their governance nor they let private sector industries. We have global CEOs but in our country there are many problems.

The question is to explore the reasons why IAF decided to stick with AL-31F. Welcome arguments or points that could speak directly to one or the other as what myself and Ananda tried to do.

But to point out Indian education system and so on, that skirts closely to whataboutism. I get that it tangentially relevant, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss specifics. You can, effectively, talk about everything and anything and we get considerably off track.

I will stop at this point as I find it derailing from the original discussion.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Why would you assume I am Indian? As for myself, I made this assumption because you post only on this thread and nothing else.
Is that an important critiera to engage?

In an international arena it is good to know eachother basically to address each other better due to different age-group, qualification, comprehension, experience. It is just like international school/college/office.
My priority is Military aviation as it fascinated me more since childhood than army, navy.
I'm Indian so i focus 1st here.

I think your earlier post on AMCA's RCS, engine performance, kinematics are good, except that the majority of those are speculative, when little official facts have emerged.
A little speculation is fine as it allows one to explore the situation, but since there are little actual facts, threads can often degenerate pages of opinons that doesn't really advance any knowledge or relation to reality. I'm not a mod but I've seen in happen so I get why they are strict on this.
The forum rules are here: Forum Rules.
I would hesitate to call this a casual chat forum.

> But this is not official portal either, asking to register for a degree, or like a 1-stop encyclopedia repository. It is public forum, nothing more, nothing less. What would you call this site? There are other websites like this created with XENFORO, hosted by CLOUDFARE, etc, in San Francisco, California or elsewhere.
> Having that reality of website, the members are free to discuss keeping rules in mind. Neither i have violated any rule nor any moderators ever contacted & warned me.
> And by definition of speculation, it happens when facts are not yet confirmed or disclosed, especially about military. That's the purpose of discussion in forums. Who will wait for 5/10/15 years for facts to emerge? Then people can simply watch the news & websites like this will be closed. Neither there is measure of speculation nor anybody asks anybody "Is this much speculation fine? Can i speculate more?"

The question is to explore the reasons why IAF decided to stick with AL-31F. Welcome arguments or points that could speak directly to one or the other as what myself and Ananda tried to do.
But to point out Indian education system and so on, that skirts closely to whataboutism. I get that it tangentially relevant, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss specifics. You can, effectively, talk about everything and anything and we get considerably off track.
I will stop at this point as I find it derailing from the original discussion.

> Disagreements & opinions are natural & fine. Discuss > Agree/Disagree > Move on to next topic/aspect.
> You guys informed why IAF decided to stick with AL-31 stating about supply chain, etc. But other qualified, educated, industrally experienced citizens also have their observations & opinions, alternate work-arounds, simple. Thereafter, you guys, and every other citizen can agree or disagree with GoI/MoD/DoD/IAF with individual's analysis, comparison with world, etc. IAF/HAL/DRDO/ADA/NAL are not supposed to be fixed w.r.t. personel & infrastructure till eternity to serve a sub-continental country & having export potentials.
> Industrial success, including supply chain, depends on good education system, R&D & employment generation. How can this be "whataboutism"?
This affects nation's progress.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back to "specifics" w.r.t. AL-31 vs Al-41
> If someone could highlight what exceptionally difficult AL-41 has, that would be informative.
>Some agree with GoI/MoD/DoD/IAF decision, i said keep AL-31 license but get AL-41 w/o license.
>Some said that Al-41 license/ToT would not be given, i said let it be given after 5-10years but lets get it for MLU & R&D of future jet.
>Some said China made WS-10 from AL-31, i said that's what we also should have done long back. Today GTRE would be having Al-41 & Al-51 type engines.
>Some spoke about retrofit taking 1-2 decades as we dont have enough infrastructure & work force, i said expansion & some stern steps are needed.
>Some said that our supply chain is not ready/fast/adaptive/etc to AL-41 in a decade, but i said suppliers have to be competitive & adaptive. Big opportunty for employment & startups.

We have to do RCA (Root Cause Analysis) on gap with West & how to bridge it a.s.a.p.
I fear a 2.5 front war is coming within this decade.

 

[swerve]

However knowing licensing their engine will give Volvo chances to build their own version, I doubt in the late 90's GE want to give or let Volvo involved with their F414, unless on as part of Junior Partner on their overall control chains.

But Volvo wasn't looking for involvement in the F414 in the late 1990s. That was part of my point. I think you had the timesline wrong.

F414 wasn't an option for JAS39A, because F414 didn't exist when an engine for JAS39A was being chosen. Volvo got a license for F404, & improved it, e.g. increased thrust.

In the late 1990s, Volvo was looking to continue its own development of F404.

The Gripen Demo (precursor to JAS39E) had an F414 when it was unveiled in 2007. By then, Volvo & GE had got together. Volvo got work on F414, including some design work, to make up for having to give up its hoped-for souped-up F404. It had become a "Junior Partner on their overall control chains". I think Volvo was forced into that by the Swedish government, which thought it'd be cheaper than having Volvo keep making a special Gripen-only version of the F404.

 

[John Fedup]

One thing to always remember about jet engines, it is one of the few high technology areas where the West enjoys a significant advantage. Others include chip manufacturing machines and to a lesser degree, naval nuclear reactors. WRT jet engines, it isn't just the design, it is the exotic materials and how to actually make the stuff. Virtually none of the key knowledge information is going to be given away (sold or licensed) to any potential adversary or commercial competitor. This is a major reason why China devotes significant funds for hacking and espionage but exotic manufacturing is almost like art thus it doesn't really exist on paper or on a in a computer file. BTW, it isn't only the West China targets.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Intelligence, art, passion are found everywhere, not exclusive to geography.
Everything before inventing, creating, achieving is considered exotic.
But R&D has to be done by self initiative.
Funding has to be created by tax & exports, meaning good education, employment, industial absorbtion.
And all this awareness has to be given to every citizen.
Watching Western documentaries, the guys at USAF, LM, NG, etc said that they developed a sense of urgency in 1980s to develop the ATF.
That sense was developed against adversary half way across the world.
But IMO, GoI/MoD/CCS/IAF/ADA/NAL are yet to show that sense in their public statements & actions against multiple hostile adjacant adversaries. Opinions differ inside these organizations among 100s-1000s of employees also. When the Chief/Chairman/MD/CEO makes a public statement, some employees echo that some don't & are unhappy.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

AMCA Vs TFX Kaan Vs KF-21, top view, side view, front view, isometric/corner view, as per present state of designs.
Good AMCA diagrams are not yet available, even by CAD artists.
Turkey was given F110-GE-129 engine. India was offered F-16IN with F110-GE-132A engine. We can't go for older airframe designs but if the business was done for the engine then we could have designed a jet better than AMCA.

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

A good video of IAF's S/w Development Institute. It showcases Su-30MKI, LCA, MiG-29, turboprop trainer, AWACS.
AVM K N Santosh, the commander of S/w dev. institute, said that MLU is supposed to happen every 10 years. He believes in achieving 100% self-relliance.
Hats off to my fellow computer/electronics guys. I wish if i was good enough scorer to get into such priviledged place.

They made such a good video private Why they invested in making it in 1st place?
Admins/Moderators/Members should download such vieos a.s.a.p. after they upload & put it on a common Google drive or something.
BTW, guys which is the best website to download YouTube videos in its max resolution or at least FHD 1080p if the video supports?
I tried following:
(Yt5s - Youtube Video Downloader (1080P) For Free)
(YouTube Downloader - Download Youtube videos for free!)
(Download video Youtube 4K - Online Youtube Downloader | Y2meta)
(SSYouTube: Online Video Downloader - SSYouTube.com)
Some sites provide"video only" option for higher resolution

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

Su-30MKI internal fuel weight on Wikipedia was 11 tons, now showing 9.64 tons

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

I don't have an official refined infographic or static model yet. Possible locations & coverage sectors for DAS/MAWS on AMCA:

 

[Bhartiya sainik]

SENSOR FUSION
It came with 5gen jets helping pilot to focus on 1 picture of battle space, coming from multiple sensors as part of the jet or from wingman, other friendly jets, AWACS, satellite, ground asset, etc.

RWR was a standard among 4gen jets, but with analog wide sector indicators. I guess no jet had spherical sensor coverage & narrow direction indicator of incoming missile or enemy jet locked on to us.
Thereafter moresensors were added - RF/EW/ESM/IFF, IR/MAWS, LWR.
It became important even for MLUed 4.5gen jets to have spherical coverage & some degree of sensor fusion with digital display.



Demo cockpit of AMCA has been shown at Aero-India expo. The static model has 1 wide primary MFD & 2nd MFD below it b/w legs.



The actual inducted jet will have a sensor fused view.
But this demo cockpit may not be showing it yet. In lower right coner we see RWR & stores display.
The main 4 bigger sections, from left to right -
- Digital gyroscope/attitude indicator
- Navigation display with map
- Radar/Attack display
- Multiple systems - Fuel, Hydraulics, Electrical, Nozzle position, Anti-ice, Engine RPM % bar,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Navigation & RWR displays
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



2nd from left is navigation+map display.
Below it are RWR & Radar/Attack displays.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AFAIK the 5gen jets F-22, F-35 & others too, do not care anymore about individual displays like RWR, IRST sweeping, radar sweeps & AESA beams, passive ESM finds, etc. All those things become processing overhead for pilot & for display GPU, hence fused into 1 situation display.

As the AMCA project progresses, we hope to see better version of demo cockpits, more precise, showing sensor fused display.