Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank

[Space]

War can not be human

Admin: Text deleted. You seriously need to read the Forum Rules before posting any more responses.

You need to stay on topic and not bring in peripheral subject matter that is outside the scope of the question.

Please make the effort to do so as this is the second time your posts have had to be edited and you've only posted 3 posts to date.


This is an official first warning.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Space, I appreciate the fact that you are new to the forums, but you must make the effort to comply with the Forum Rules re etiquette and posting standards.

Please note prev comments by me.

 

[otester]

A dirt cheap tank which is field-able for India en-mass:

-Chassis & turret based on T-55 design.
-Turret not made from steel but tough alloy, depleted uranium for frontal curve.
-125mm 2A46M-5, auto loader fitted out with APFSDS (3BM-42M), HEAT, HEF & ATGM.
-MRS fitted for long range accuracy.
-NERA/Relikts armour package added.
-ARENA protection system.
-Anti-radar+Anti-IR jamming system.
-1A45T Irtysh computerized system.
-2E42-4 Zhasmin two-plane electro-mechanical.
-ESSA (Thales Optronique Catherine-FC TI).
-DVE-BS wind gauge.
-1V528-1 ballistic computer.

If possible a home-brew diesel engine or updated German 1500hp.

 

[Chrom]

A dirt cheap tank which is field-able for India en-mass:

-Chassis & turret based on T-55 design.
-Turret not made from steel but tough alloy, depleted uranium for frontal curve.
-125mm 2A46M-5, auto loader fitted out with APFSDS (3BM-42M), HEAT, HEF & ATGM.
-MRS fitted for long range accuracy.
-NERA/Relikts armour package added.
-ARENA protection system.
-Anti-radar+Anti-IR jamming system.
-1A45T Irtysh computerized system.
-2E42-4 Zhasmin two-plane electro-mechanical.
-ESSA (Thales Optronique Catherine-FC TI).
-DVE-BS wind gauge.
-1V528-1 ballistic computer.

If possible a home-brew diesel engine or updated German 1500hp.

OMG. It will cost EXACTLY as much as latest T-90. T-90 chassys itself (without any electronic, etc) cost less than 800k $$. Add a new engine... and it is much cheaper to produce NEW T-90 or add slightly more and buy Arjun if you really want "indigenious" tank.

 

[otester]

OMG. It will cost EXACTLY as much as latest T-90. T-90 chassys itself (without any electronic, etc) cost less than 800k $$. Add a new engine... and it is much cheaper to produce NEW T-90 or add slightly more and buy Arjun if you really want "indigenious" tank.

Well T-55 itself about 10k, major saving hmm?

 

[Waylander]

No, you want to change the passive armor layout of the T-55 turret so the price for it is also going to rise.

And the small price of a T-55 includes this lovely old gun and engine.

So even a basic T-55 (without all the toys just the hull, turret and engine) is going to be much more expensive than the 10k for a plain old T-55.
Not tot alk of the need to overhaul the whole thing to get some additional life out of it. Otherwise you have some pretty expensive toys on a whored down chassis which is going to break down every few miles when it is heavily used.

And as Chrom said all the new gadgets are really expensive.
I would say, okay upgrade your T-72s but not the T-55s.

 

[swerve]

Well T-55 itself about 10k, major saving hmm?

Go and look up the price Turkey is paying for the M60T. Then consider that the M60T includes an original M60 hull, turret, & some mechanical components, which came free.

Now consider: you buy an old T-55 for more or less scrap value. Discard everything except the hull, turret, & a few of the more robust mechanical components, which will still be sound. Strip them down, clean 'em, make necessary modifications (cut a few bits out, add some mountings) for the new components. Hmm. That's been quite expensive. You'll have spent a large proportion of the cost of a new, purpose-built, modified T-55 hull & turret.

Then add the new gun, engine, FCS, add-on armour etc. you propose. These will cost the same same as those fitted in new tanks. They account for most of the cost of a new tank.

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense. For a lot less money, you could get an upgraded tank which is less capable, but far better value for money. For less than twice as much, you could get a new tank at least twice as good. IMO you're aiming squarely at the "sour spot", the overdone upgrade which is not cost-effective.

 

[Waylander]

I have no problem with upgrading T-55s to some degree.

Just put some ERA onto it, get some new commo equipment and maybe add a LRF.
With that one gets a relatively cheap AFV which could perform in the role of a light tank and it could be attached to infantry units in a support role.
With some decent ammo (A nice APFSDS and HE) it should be deadly enough for everything but enemy MBTs.
Save the rest of the money and bring your main tank forces up to modern standard and I mean bring them up in numbers and quality.

 

[funtz]

its the T-90, some 1500-1600 and counting, DRDO chaps will have to finish up quick and address whatever magical needs the Army has, after that with some more solid support of the MoD they can make the army stick to a whole lot of the Arjun MBT's.

Why would they buy/upgrade T-55s without a need to do so.

Just wondering if someone could help or point towards some place,

- what is the approximate MBT requirement of the Indian Army (talking of numbers)?

- In what time frame will the upgraded T-72 in the Indian Army require a replacement?

- In what time frame will the T-90s require a replacement(eventually)?

 

[kato]

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense.

Hmm, Romania is still clinging to their TR-85 (T-55 clone with different engine) though, just recently upgraded to TR-85M1/M2 - new engine, new suspension, upgraded turret with more armour on the frontal arc, new FCS, LWR, LRF, smoke grenade launchers, new ammunition etc.

Only thing they haven't changed pretty much is the basic chassis - and the gun.

 

[Chrom]

Army require a replacement?

- In what time frame will the T-90s require a replacement(eventually)?

Will probably never "require" but surery in 10 years T-90 would degenerate to 2nd line tank.

 

[Chrom]

Hmm, Romania is still clinging to their TR-85 (T-55 clone with different engine) though, just recently upgraded to TR-85M1/M2 - new engine, new suspension, upgraded turret with more armour on the frontal arc, new FCS, LWR, LRF, smoke grenade launchers, new ammunition etc.

Only thing they haven't changed pretty much is the basic chassis - and the gun.

There are some pretty neat proposal advertised along the lines from Russia and Ukraine - but there is a good reason why noone ordered it

 

[otester]

Go and look up the price Turkey is paying for the M60T. Then consider that the M60T includes an original M60 hull, turret, & some mechanical components, which came free.

Now consider: you buy an old T-55 for more or less scrap value. Discard everything except the hull, turret, & a few of the more robust mechanical components, which will still be sound. Strip them down, clean 'em, make necessary modifications (cut a few bits out, add some mountings) for the new components. Hmm. That's been quite expensive. You'll have spent a large proportion of the cost of a new, purpose-built, modified T-55 hull & turret.

Then add the new gun, engine, FCS, add-on armour etc. you propose. These will cost the same same as those fitted in new tanks. They account for most of the cost of a new tank.

There's a reason why nobody has done a T-55 upgrade as extensive as what you propose: it doesn't make sense. For a lot less money, you could get an upgraded tank which is less capable, but far better value for money. For less than twice as much, you could get a new tank at least twice as good. IMO you're aiming squarely at the "sour spot", the overdone upgrade which is not cost-effective.

Was just to show the T-55 is capable, although not a good idea...

What I said was the full package, could strip it down a lot and make it just as battle-worthy.

Look at the Ukrainian T-55.

 

[mysterious]

Was just to show the T-55 is capable, although not a good idea...

What I said was the full package, could strip it down a lot and make it just as battle-worthy.

Look at the Ukrainian T-55.

You could also look at the work done by Pakistan on its old T-55s & T-65s by upgrading them to Al-Zarrar standard. Shows how much you can still do.

 

[otester]

You could also look at the work done by Pakistan on its old T-55s & T-65s by upgrading them to Al-Zarrar standard. Shows how much you can still do.

That's pretty much what I had in mind originally, good to see nations are doing this, now what would be the cost of an Al-Zarrar (T-59)?

 

[eckherl]

That's pretty much what I had in mind originally, good to see nations are doing this, now what would be the cost of an Al-Zarrar (T-59)?

Isn`t that bad boy sporting a 125mm.

 

[otester]

Isn`t that bad boy sporting a 125mm.

Sure is.

I would post a link to a fact page I got but I can't yet....

 

[eckherl]

Sure is.

I would post a link to a fact page I got but I can't yet....

This should be it, I wonder what the cost is for the upgrade.

 

[Aliph Ahmed]

This should be it, I wonder what the cost is for the upgrade.

I know it is an Indian Thread but I just wanted to point out the current and as of date form of Al-Zarrar Tank.

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0600.JPG
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/gallery/images/pkdef06.jpg

 

[eckherl]

I know it is an Indian Thread but I just wanted to point out the current and as of date form of Al-Zarrar Tank.

http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/ideas2006/images/IMGP0600.JPG
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/army/gallery/images/pkdef06.jpg

Thank you, interesting upgrade. Do you have a estimate, even a ball park figure on what the upgrade costs pakistan, how many are they looking at upgrading.