Indian Army seeks next generation battle tank

indian bull

Banned Member
Are you referring to Army chief Gen Kapoor? Is he not interested in inducting Arjun? Well there seems to be something wrong either with Arjun or the Army Officer. I will more inclined to believe what Gen.Kapoor is saying....:rolleyes:
I have posted links already above please go and study them. Well there are always lots of vested interests in defence deals, lots of money is paid as commission. Why not, lots of beaurocrats, politicians and even army people are involved in this market. you must have heard about scams in bofors, barak system
and many other deals.
 

Titanium

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #22
Completely disagree with you..
You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.
Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.
 

indian bull

Banned Member
You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:



Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.
And u are by the side of army cheif?

Economically, millitarily, technologically INDIA is on a BULL RUN.
BE BRAVE BE INDIAN[not a kanjus(mean) tax payer, be ready to sacrifice last drop of your blood for ur motherland.]
(Sura so pehchaniye jo lare din ke het, Purza purza kat mare kabhon na chade khet). ...
(Those are brave who fight for humanity,even when cut into peices they never leave the battlefield)
Sura(shoorveer)(brave)
din(humanity)
purza(peices)
kabhon(never)
chade(leaves)
khet(battlefeild)
 
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funtz

New Member
You are free to disagree, but note that the comment is from Army chief Gen Kapoor, not me. Read it again:

Also no one will challenge your notion that Arjun is high tech, each has his own view according to his information.

Ultimately whose opinion prevail? Army chief or posters here.
Ya mate that is the confusion here, what international technology, British American or Russians, if he was comparing Arjun to a T-90 then the problem is that such a comparison can not work they are both leagues apart that utilize different methods, The initial T-90s had their share of problems, i think he was comparing the Arjun with American and British tanks and his comments signify what might be a change in the soviet doctrine of warfare in which case well thats good about bloody time.

The real reason for the above stated comment by the Chief of Army staff is to stop the government form pushing the tank down the ranks, i mean the army has made its mind about a armor that is mostly T-90 and T-72(upgraded), and the army is fighting tooth and nail to protect this,
Remember the tank trials that were canceled by the Army, i mean that would have shut the MoD once and for all, however the problem was had Arjun compared up with T-72 and T-90 even bettered them in some aspects and that would have caused a problem for the army.
Its really not all that complicated.

As for the decision, its for the Army to decide after all they have to use it.


And i might add the Arjun tank project has seen its fair share of chief of army staff come and go so i do not know whose opinion will prevail, Army chief or posters here or MoD there.
:eek:nfloorl:
 
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indian bull

Banned Member
Ya mate that is the confusion here, what international technology, British American or Russians, if he was comparing Arjun to a T-90 then the problem is that such a comparison can not work they are both leagues apart that utilize different methods, The initial T-90s had their share of problems, i think he was comparing the Arjun with American and British tanks and his comments signify what might be a change in the soviet doctrine of warfare in which case well thats good about bloody time.

The real reason for the above stated comment by the Chief of Army staff is to stop the government form pushing the tank down the ranks, i mean the army has made its mind about a armor that is mostly T-90 and T-72(upgraded), and the army is fighting tooth and nail to protect this,
Remember the tank trials that were canceled by the Army, i mean that would have shut the MoD once and for all, however the problem was had Arjun compared up with T-72 and T-90 even bettered them in some aspects and that would have caused a problem for the army.
Its really not all that complicated.

As for the decision, its for the Army to decide after all they have to use it.


And i might add the Arjun tank project has seen its fair share of chief of army staff come and go so i do not know whose opinion will prevail, Army chief or posters here or MoD there.
:eek:nfloorl:
see this :-http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070025577&ch=9/9/2007+9:17:00+PM
Arjun tank's comparative trials called off



Ajai Shukla
Sunday, September 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
For three decades, India's Arjun tank project has struggled and has been scoffed at by experts and dismissed by the army.

The army, in fact, refused to accept the tank into service until comparative trials were held pitting the Arjun against the army's Russian T-72 and T-90 tanks.

But now, mysteriously the army has asked the Ministry of Defence to call off the comparative trials.

The T-72 has proved itself over years, says the army, and the T-90 is even better - only the Arjun needs to prove itself.

Meanwhile, the army is going ahead with buying 347 more T-90s paying a billion dollars to Russia. The army chief will be visiting Russia next week and the defence minister will follow next month.

The MoD itself had insisted on comparative trials before this turnaround. Now it says that you can't compare a 46-tonne T-90 with a 60-tonne Arjun.

But the men who built the tank in the Central Vehicles R&D Establishment in Chennai believe that's just an excuse to avoid comparative trials which would prove that Arjun is the best tank.

''People have been asking that question, how can you compare a 40 tonne class tank with a 60 tonne class tank, and I think the golden question is that irrespective of the weight and other features, if one is given a choice as to which tank he'd like to ride to battle, which tank would you choose?'' said Major General HM Singh, Additional DG, CVRDE.

This competitiveness is a sign of the Arjun's new confidence. After three decades of public criticism, the Arjun seems to have ironed out its defects.

''Over a period of five years, we have evaluated this tank in the deserts of Rajasthan. We have evaluated over 70,000 km of cumulative run with 15 tanks we have fired over 10,000 rounds,'' said R Jayakumar, Associate Director, CVRDE.

But success came only in 2005 after the Arjun hardened its electronics to work in the desert heat and fixed chronic suspension leakages.

The army then demanded that the tank be able to drive for 20 minutes under six feet of water, and that's been done too.

Now as the Arjun races over these rumble strips, it has logged up notable successes.

In the year 2000, the Indian Kanchan Armour proved itself in trials - a T-72 couldn't penetrate the Arjun even from point blank range.

Last June firing trials noted that the ''accuracy and consistency of the Arjun tank was proved beyond doubt.''

While the T-90 plans to install an air conditioner to keep its electronics working, the Arjun's electronics now work at up to 60 degrees.

The MoD admitted this year to the Parliament's Committee on Defence that the ''Arjun's firing accuracy is far superior to other two tanks.''

And that that ''MBT Arjun is specifically configured for Indian Army requirements, and the T-90 does not have some of the advanced features of MBT Arjun.''

But the Arjun's makers don't just want acceptance and a token order of 124 tanks.

They want the Arjun to be the backbone of India's 3500 tank fleet, and the comparative trials, they say, will prove the Arjun deserves that.

The MoD is backpedaling. It says the army could accept another 124 tanks of the improved Arjun and perhaps many more, if the army likes the tank.

''We have kept the option of producing another 124 of the better version of the Arjun tank. And when the army uses this tank, God knows, they may just fall in love with it and decide that the entire production line should be Arjuns only,'' said KP Singh, Secretary Defence Production.

The Army's opposition to the Arjun tank is partly the fault of the Arjun team. It took three decades to develop the tank and the generals lost faith in the project.

And today, with the Arjun ready to prove its worth the army seems unwilling to listen.
 

Titanium

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #26
And u are by the side of army cheif?

Economically, millitarily, technologically INDIA is on a BULL RUN.
BE BRAVE BE INDIAN[not a kanjus(mean) tax payer, be ready to sacrifice last drop of your blood for ur motherland.]
(Sura so pehchaniye jo lare din ke het, Purza purza kat mare kabhon na chade khet). ...
(Those are brave who fight for humanity,even when cut into peices they never leave the battlefield)
Sura(shoorveer)(brave)
din(humanity)
purza(peices)
kabhon(never)
chade(leaves)
khet(battlefeild)

For all the bravery and cutting yourself to pieces, you do not want to belive the Army chief:confused:. You would rather side with DRDO who may never have to do the fight and lose their limb. Well what can I say to patriotic like you:unknown
 

indian bull

Banned Member
For all the bravery and cutting yourself to pieces, you do not want to belive the Army chief:confused:. You would rather side with DRDO who may never have to do the fight and lose their limb. Well what can I say to patriotic like you:unknown
Army cheifs come and go regularly and their staments change more freequently and u have stick to a single statement of army cheif. I think u must search and go to study details about these projects. Why army refuses comparative trials of arjun with T-72(night blind) and t-90(leaky with soft electronic parts)? why army is planning to fit air conditioning systems in t-90 and not opting arjun(their electronics are hardened to 60 degree C) ?u need to study a lot.:flame

If drdo have to loose then why army has ordered 124 arjuns, then the whole project of developing arjun mk 2 and tank x must be stgopped immidiately.
 

funtz

New Member
Man if you ask for my personal opinion the Arjun tank is as good as the T-90 or the upgraded T-72 and it is not really welcomed by the army, the huge time it took to develop this beast has sealed its future, and i fail to see how that has anything to do with national pride, so there was a screw up, almost all military projects around the world seem to be run with time delays and cost overruns.

The army does not want the arjun they are already prepared for T-90/72(upgraded), the MoD seems to be hell bent on making sure that the Army accepts the Tank, the reasons seem beyond my grasp, if people can not respect the judgment of the men they choose to hand over the security of the nation to then perhaps they should replace them.

In case no one remembers the T-90 did not just spring up from the ground the army considered a wide range of options before going for the T-90, i suppose the combat effectiveness@cost was a factor they used. So at a stage as late as this it is naive to ask the army to move over and make some room.

Their is a value to technology demonstrators or developments, it will be in our own interest to keep on adding to the technology of the Arjun tank even if it is not procured in huge numbers, otherwise the next project will take same amounts of time and money to come up. So i am all for my money going into continuous development of the Arjun tank project, if DRDO involves a commercial house like L&T, Tata, M&M into it even better.
As the title of this thread suggests Arjun tank project should be run as long as Tanks are required in combat, should be made a department in DRDO which keeps on adding stuff onto the tank with in the financial restraints.

As for comparisons of the arjun tank, it seem to be a rhetorical question.
One can even say that T-55 which is being phased out is better than the Arjun as it is actually in forward positions, to put it in another way till the LCA is actually inducted into the AF the MiG-21 bison is much better as it is carring out sorties with the AF.
 

Rossiman

Banned Member
Man if you ask for my personal opinion the Arjun tank is as good as the T-90 or the upgraded T-72 and it is not really welcomed by the army, the huge time it took to develop this beast has sealed its future, and i fail to see how that has anything to do with national pride, so there was a screw up, almost all military projects around the world seem to be run with time delays and cost overruns.

The army does not want the arjun they are already prepared for T-90/72(upgraded), the MoD seems to be hell bent on making sure that the Army accepts the Tank, the reasons seem beyond my grasp, if people can not respect the judgment of the men they choose to hand over the security of the nation to then perhaps they should replace them.

In case no one remembers the T-90 did not just spring up from the ground the army considered a wide range of options before going for the T-90, i suppose the combat effectiveness@cost was a factor they used. So at a stage as late as this it is naive to ask the army to move over and make some room.

Their is a value to technology demonstrators or developments, it will be in our own interest to keep on adding to the technology of the Arjun tank even if it is not procured in huge numbers, otherwise the next project will take same amounts of time and money to come up. So i am all for my money going into continuous development of the Arjun tank project, if DRDO involves a commercial house like L&T, Tata, M&M into it even better.
As the title of this thread suggests Arjun tank project should be run as long as Tanks are required in combat, should be made a department in DRDO which keeps on adding stuff onto the tank with in the financial restraints.

As for comparisons of the arjun tank, it seem to be a rhetorical question.
One can even say that T-55 which is being phased out is better than the Arjun as it is actually in forward positions, to put it in another way till the LCA is actually inducted into the AF the MiG-21 bison is much better as it is carring out sorties with the AF.

I agree with you, the Arjun is actually a well built tank that is par with the T-90. How much does a Arjun cost compared to a T-90/T-72?
 

indian bull

Banned Member
hey funtz questions were raised about underpowered deisel engine of arjun but t-90,72 have engine between 700-800bhp as compared with arjun having an engine of 1400bhp.as u are a engineer tell me if t90,72 is underpowered or is arjun?
 

funtz

New Member
If you have the tonnage to power figures you can see for yourself which tank is under powered, i think they are available in the DRDO website, the weight has very littile to do with the power available or the tank sinking in the sand, might have more to do with going over a bridge that looks really suspect.

Arjun MBT
1400 HP at 2400 rpm
24:1 HP/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
http://www.drdo.org/products/mbt.htm

T-90S MBT
1,000 HP
21.5 hp/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.87 kg/sq.cm.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

T-72 MBT
840 HP
13.8kW/t
Ground Pressure: 0.83 kg/ sq.cm.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t72/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-72M1.html
The power to weight ratio might be different as army tech site states for T-72S with V-84 liquid-cooled four-stroke which develops 840hp, providing a power to weight ratio of 13.8kW/t
And the Bharat Rakshak states T-72 M1 with V-12 air-cooled, multi-fuel injection, engine with 780 hp.

All of the figures work only when the engines work to the optimum levels in Indian conditions.

Not really a mech-engineer bro. its not like all of us engineers have more than one semester with thermo. and/or engines.

However this belongs in the arjun thread, here i will like to talk about the huge requirement of the indian army of 3000-5000 tanks or so (any one with the more information) and how that requires a constant MBT development department in the DRDO which should also include participation of the private firms.
 
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indian bull

Banned Member
If you have the tonnage to power figures you can see for yourself which tank is under powered, i think they are available in the DRDO website, the weight has very littile to do with the power available or the tank sinking in the sand, might have more to do with going over a bridge that looks really suspect.

Arjun MBT
1400 HP at 2400 rpm
24:1 HP/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.84 kg/sq. cm.
http://www.drdo.org/products/mbt.htm

T-90S MBT
1,000 HP
21.5 hp/ton
Ground Pressure: 0.87 kg/sq.cm.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-90.html

T-72 MBT
840 HP
13.8kW/t
Ground Pressure: 0.83 kg/ sq.cm.
http://www.army-technology.com/projects/t72/
and
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Army/T-72M1.html
The power to weight ratio might be different as army tech site states for T-72S with V-84 liquid-cooled four-stroke which develops 840hp, providing a power to weight ratio of 13.8kW/t
And the Bharat Rakshak states T-72 M1 with V-12 air-cooled, multi-fuel injection, engine with 780 hp.

All of the figures work only when the engines work to the optimum levels in Indian conditions.

Not really a mech-engineer bro. its not like all of us engineers have more than one semester with thermo. and/or engines.

However this belongs in the arjun thread, here i will like to talk about the huge requirement of the indian army of 3000-5000 tanks or so (any one with the more information) and how that requires a constant MBT development department in the DRDO which should also include participation of the private firms.
well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass,politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.
 

Titanium

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #34
well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass,politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.

Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun TAnk, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressue is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.
 

indian bull

Banned Member
Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun TAnk, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressue is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.
some not all Army officers are so much obssesed with russian equipment that they will buy russian donkeys rather than indian arjun. And u please read the report of ajay shukla posted above and go to the links provided above. the DG of cvrde is also an army officer look what he says publiclay.
 

funtz

New Member
well what these figures tell, even a layman like me(a physician) can easily judge that arjun is at no. 1 in these comparisons. So, whatz the problem with army, i think its army top brass, politicians and beaurocrats all fear of loosing their perks(wine &women and also money) from dealers and agents.
I don’t really think there is much difference between T-90s and Arjun based on the figures, really have a closer look.
A more comprehensive comparison can be made through internet resources, if the resources overstate every value then it should come out even. :D

With out considering how the tanks will be used that seems to be useless. if you wish for the sake of having time on our hands we can compare this in the Arjun MBT thread i think they are already there in that thread.

However it is useless as it is the Army that has to man these tanks and not us, better leave it up to the experts they have for these jobs, lobbying goes on even in contracts for stationary why should a multi billion dollar contract be any different?

Laymen like you (which u accept) should never accuse the Army officers with your limited knowledge. Just consider that you do not have the complete picture of Arjun Tank, as the Army officers and General have.

The parameters you have set out to judge, HP/Ton or Ground pressure is not the whole picture of tank. By the way both Power pack and track is imported. The groud pressure you are showing is due mostly coz the imported track is meant for 65 ton class tank. When this track is mated to 58 ton tank obviosly the result will be significantly in Arjun Tank favour, which is just incidental not designed.
The irony in your "incidental not designed" statement is funny.

Exactly what is the topic here Arjun tank or the next generation of the Arjun tank project?

In case it is about the later one, well what ever comes up next will have a huge advantage over the current project, as many mistakes have been made and i am sure many things have been learned.
 
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indian bull

Banned Member
I don’t really think there is much difference between T-90s and Arjun based on the figures, really have a closer look.
A more comprehensive comparison can be made through internet resources, if the resources overstate every value then it should come out even. :D

With out considering how the tanks will be used that seems to be useless. if you wish for the sake of having time on our hands we can compare this in the Arjun MBT thread i think they are already there in that thread.

However it is useless as it is the Army that has to man these tanks and not us, better leave it up to the experts they have for these jobs, lobbying goes on even in contracts for stationary why should a multi billion dollar contract be any different?




The irony in your "incidental not designed" statement is funny.

Exactly what is the topic here Arjun tank or the next generation of the Arjun tank project?

In case it is about the later one, well what ever comes up next will have a huge advantage over the current project, as many mistakes have been made and i am sure many things have been learned.
All i wish is that lot of hardwork and money will not get wasted and in future arjuns will make a come back with a lot of advancement and also drdo and armed forces will amalgmate and join hands right from the begining of the projects.
 

aaaditya

New Member
i dont think arjun is realy that bad,if it was so,then the indian army would have gone for a brand new design or joint development of a battle tank with a foreign country ,however they have decided to go for arjun2 which is nothing but an improved arjun with a 1500hp engine(for which cvrde has already issued request for proposals for joint development).

i believe that the gun ,suspension ,nbc protection would be retained while the armour and the electronics would be further improved.

by the way does anyone have any idea about the main battle tank karna project,is it the same as the tank-x or is it a completely new design.
 

indian bull

Banned Member
here is something:-
DRDO preparing ‘Karna’ tank
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, March 11 2002
After the failure of its ambitious main battle tank “Arjun”, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has embarked upon the new generation “Karna” tank which can withstand a nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) attack.

The DRDO has already prepared the prototype of “Karna” and is presently conducting field tests, well-placed sources said today. It would be some time before “Karna” is made available for Army trials.

“Karna”, sources claimed, would be at par with internationally leading tanks like Abrams of the USA, Leopard (Germany), Challenger (UK) and Leclerc (France).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_ex_mbt
Tank-Ex/MBT-EX is the code name to a new tank developed by the Indian Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) in 2002. It is rumored to be called "Karna", after one of the heroes of the Indian epic 'The Mahabharata'.
 

Titanium

New Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #40
i dont think arjun is realy that bad,if it was so,then the indian army would have gone for a brand new design or joint development of a battle tank with a foreign country ,however they have decided to go for arjun2 which is nothing but an improved arjun with a 1500hp engine(for which cvrde has already issued request for proposals for joint development).

i believe that the gun ,suspension ,nbc protection would be retained while the armour and the electronics would be further improved.

by the way does anyone have any idea about the main battle tank karna project,is it the same as the tank-x or is it a completely new design.
Am afraid, it will be new design..as the Army chief want a lighter, versatile and high tech.


Based on its experience in designing the Arjun MBTs, the DRDO was coming up with a lighter and more versatile version called Arjun MK-II which is expected to meet future needs, Army chief General Deepak Kapoor told an international seminar on Armoured Fighting Vehicles here
This is in contrast to 58 ton heavy Arjun, which Gen Kapoor described a medium tech.

'What we have today is mid-level technology. What we need is a tank of international quality,' Indian Army chief Gen. Deepak Kapoor said Tuesday.

How much lighter can you make the same Arjun tank? one , two ton still it would not be what the Army wants.

So brace yourself for a new tank design with a new mytholigical warrior name.:p:
 
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