European Armour

[Gollevainen]

The difference is that in a modern SP the computer does everything. You saxy were you want to hit with a MRSI and the computer does the rest. I really doubt that even computerized howitzer are as fast as the turret engines of the SPs.

Well in the MRSI mode I agree SP guns are propaply faster but in general aiming and transvere/elevation of the tube, I actually belive that towed APU fitted gun with similar firecontrol like in the 155K98 can do it faster...But then again, I've never operated modern (or unmodern to be clear) SP systems so I cannot be 100% sure.

 

[contedicavour]

Because we have in France a very clever (!) burocratie that was thoughting that a wheeled vehicle can perform the same tasks than a tracked one.
Anyway, they wanted to reduce the upkeep cost of the new IFV, so we now have the VBCI, a 8x8 that cannot, in my humble opinion, follow an assault lead by our Leclercs...

In Italy we have a similar strategic & financial problem...
we only have 200 Dardo AIFVs to follow the 200 Ariete MBTs and remaining 120+ L1A5 MBTs. More are planned, but they don't have a very high priority.
So far, priority is given to completing the 560 Puma 6x6 and 4x4 wheeled AIFVs purchase and to start building Centauro 8x8 wheeled AIFVs to operate alone or with the 400 Centauro 105-mm equipped wheeled tank busters.
Given the ratio of tracked vs wheeled forces (approx 1:4) -unless you take into account the older vehicles such as M113, VCC-1, VCC-2 - I'm just praying that most combat scenarios will be suitable for our forces.

cheers

 

[.pt]

I guess almost every European army is going that way. Since we don´t have a threat such as the one posed by the soviets in the cold war, everyone is going "light", so in most likely cenarios, intervention in peace keeping missions, perhaps that kind of thinking is not so bad. As long as they do not exagerate. A moderate force of MBT and tracked vehicles, modernised and highly specialised, is needed to keep a credible level of readiness in all European armys.
But indeed, in general, everyones cupboard is almost bare...
.pt

 

[swerve]

I guess almost every European army is going that way. Since we don´t have a threat such as the one posed by the soviets in the cold war, everyone is going "light", so in most likely cenarios, intervention in peace keeping missions, perhaps that kind of thinking is not so bad. As long as they do not exagerate. A moderate force of MBT and tracked vehicles, modernised and highly specialised, is needed to keep a credible level of readiness in all European armys.
.pt

Agreed. No need for Italy, France, etc. to keep 1000+ MBTs in service nowadays. But 200 MBT & 200 tracked IFV doesn't seem much for a country the size of Italy. And France could really do with some tracked IFVs.

 

[contedicavour]

Agreed. No need for Italy, France, etc. to keep 1000+ MBTs in service nowadays. But 200 MBT & 200 tracked IFV doesn't seem much for a country the size of Italy. And France could really do with some tracked IFVs.

If only they were listening to you in our Parliament
To be fair, official operational numbers are 350 MBTs (including 150 L1A5s) and 800 tracked AIFVs (including 600 older VCC-1 and VCC-2, basically upgraded M113s).
However plans to replace L1A5s only include Centauro 8x8 wheeled tank busters (though with 120mm gun, so the same punch as a MBT), and most old tracked AIFVs will be replaced by 8x8 and 6x6 wheeled AIFVs.
This means, by 2015 approx :
> 550 heavy wheeled tank busters (Centauro, improved Centauro) vs 200 MBTs (Ariete modernized)
> approx 1,000 wheeled AIFVs (Puma 4x4, 6x6, Centauro AIFV 8x8) vs 400 (max) tracked AIFVs (Dardo, improved Dardo).

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

Hello to all!

Just to say a few words...

It seems it's been decided to produce degman's for our military. Nothing is still decided for sure, but there have been leaks on several ex-yu forums about this. All of our M-84s are to be replaced or upgraded to Degman standard. Please don't ask how much degmans will be produced, since it is not known for sure just how many M-84s are curently in our army. The latest report says 72 M-84As, but this is rather uncertain and it has been discussed on several ex-yu forums that there is a far greater number of M-84s around.

In the meantime, degman will receive several upgrades in armour and equipment.

 

[isthvan]

Hello to all!

Just to say a few words...

It seems it's been decided to produce degman's for our military. Nothing is still decided for sure, but there have been leaks on several ex-yu forums about this. All of our M-84s are to be replaced or upgraded to Degman standard. Please don't ask how much degmans will be produced, since it is not known for sure just how many M-84s are curently in our army. The latest report says 72 M-84As, but this is rather uncertain and it has been discussed on several ex-yu forums that there is a far greater number of M-84s around.

In the meantime, degman will receive several upgrades in armour and equipment.

Hi Ragusian.

Sorry to disappoint you but Degman wont see production. Army will retire all T-55 that are still in service and keep 72 M-84 and 3 T-72 tanks… MOD announced plans to modernize one M-84 battalion by 2015 and to buy 126 new wheeled IFVs ( Patria AMV or Pandur2). That’s all…
As for ex. yu forums there aren’t what I would call reliable sources of information… You should go to Croatian MOD site and check MOD document about modernization plans from 2006 to 2015…

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[Ragusian]

Hi Ragusian.

Sorry to disappoint you but Degman wont see production. Army will retire all T-55 that are still in service and keep 72 M-84 and 3 T-72 tanks… MOD announced plans to modernize one M-84 battalion by 2015 and to buy 126 new wheeled IFVs ( Patria AMV or Pandur2). That’s all…
As for ex. yu forums there aren’t what I would call reliable sources of information… You should go to Croatian MOD site and check MOD document about modernization plans from 2006 to 2015…

Best regards,
Isthvan

Hi Ishtvan!

I'm well aware of MoD plans and the 2006-2015 roadmap.
But this roadmap is just a proposal, and it can change. There are now good chances that we will see degman on the production line, very soon.
As for some ex-yu forums, I agree, but several insiders can be found on some

 

[contedicavour]

What does the Degman upgrade for M84/T72s imply ?
By the way, I'm surprised Croatia doesn't profit from the great sell-off of used German Army Leo2A4s underway... wouldn't it be even cheaper then upgrading M84s ?

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

here's a little comparison...The degman has a new transmission, more powerfull engine, some extra armor(+2 tonnes compared to M84), new sensors, new electric motor driving the turret and a few things more I cannot recall at the moment. But it's fully customisable, for export

 

[contedicavour]

here's a little comparison...The degman has a new transmission, more powerfull engine, some extra armor(+2 tonnes compared to M84), new sensors, new electric motor driving the turret and a few things more I cannot recall at the moment. But it's fully customisable, for export

Thanks ! it becomes hard to identify it's an evolved version of T72 !
I'm still wondering though if this modernization isn't more expensive than taking some mothballed German Army surplus Leo2A4 ?

I'm saying this because honestly had we known that we would only have built 200 Ariete MBTs we should just have bought German Leo2s, we would have saved a lot of money...

cheers

 

[Ragusian]

I'm still wondering though if this modernization isn't more expensive than taking some mothballed German Army surplus Leo2A4 ?

Maybe it is, but taking surplus Leos wouldn't involve our industry the same way building degmans will.
There are also some further developments possible, mybe even fitting a german-made main gun.

 

[isthvan]

Degman is basically further development of ex. Yu M-84 and Vihor MBT family…

Improvements are:
-new welded turret made of multi layer composite armor
-ERA blocks by Rafael
-enhanced anti-mine protection
-new anti-mine protective seat for driver
-1000hs engine whit 1200hs engine as option
-electric instead of hydraulic turret and gun drive
-new FCS
-etc...
Manufacturer also proposed 120mm main gun as option…

Croatian army wonted to buy small batch but that was canceled during 2003…
Now problem is that army has large amount of obsolete equipment that they need to replace so new MBT isn’t exactly priority… They need new assault rifles, new SAW, new communications equipment, new logistics vehicles, new IFV, air force needs to replace old MiG-21s etc. Now if we look at defense budget there is simple not enough founds for new MBTs.

So IMHO there is no chance that Degman will see full production if manufacturer doesn’t find foreign buyer. Small batch production is simple economically unjustified… Military will probably go whit M-84 modifications (ERA and new FCS) but that’s all…

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[contedicavour]

Degman is basically further development of ex. Yu M-84 and Vihor MBT family…

Improvements are:
-new welded turret made of multi layer composite armor
-ERA blocks by Rafael
-enhanced anti-mine protection
-new anti-mine protective seat for driver
-1000hs engine whit 1200hs engine as option
-electric instead of hydraulic turret and gun drive
-new FCS
-etc...
Manufacturer also proposed 120mm main gun as option…

Croatian army wonted to buy small batch but that was canceled during 2003…
Now problem is that army has large amount of obsolete equipment that they need to replace so new MBT isn’t exactly priority… They need new assault rifles, new SAW, new communications equipment, new logistics vehicles, new IFV, air force needs to replace old MiG-21s etc. Now if we look at defense budget there is simple not enough founds for new MBTs.

So IMHO there is no chance that Degman will see full production if manufacturer doesn’t find foreign buyer. Small batch production is simple economically unjustified… Military will probably go whit M-84 modifications (ERA and new FCS) but that’s all…

Best regards,
Isthvan

I agree every country should concentrate on those segments of weapons manufacture where it can have an advantage. MBTs we should just leave to the Germans I'm not enough of an expert on armies' equipment, but on the naval industry for example Croatian shipyards have for a long time been one of the best producers of small coastal subs for special ops. If you have similar sectors of high expertise, leverage them. Otherwise, let's not waste taxpayers' money and let's extract the most out of our small defence budgets. It does hurt on the short term, but it pays off handsomely in the mid- to long-term, as the turnaround of our Finmeccanica corporation proves.

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Could be difficult to buy our Leos due to our laws.
Maybe our government and/or our corts would ecide that croatia is still part of crisis region and we do not sell military equipment to crisis regions.
Just ask some turkish members how many problems you can get...

 

[isthvan]

Could be difficult to buy our Leos due to our laws.
Maybe our government and/or our corts would ecide that croatia is still part of crisis region and we do not sell military equipment to crisis regions.
Just ask some turkish members how many problems you can get...

Hi Waylander

I don’t think that German government could come to conclusion that we are in crisis region. War has been over decade ago and Croatia has started negotiation for EU membership… We don’t have any internal or external problems similar to Turkish problems whit Kurdish separatist movement and we are not threat to any nation in our neighborhood…

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[Waylander]

You would be surprised what our government, courts and population could decide.
Bosnia and Kosovo is not that far away and the war during the '90s is still fresh in the minds of our people.

 

[isthvan]

You would be surprised what our government, courts and population could decide.
Bosnia and Kosovo is not that far away and the war during the '90s is still fresh in the minds of our people.

Unfortunately I understand what you mean… But situation in Bosnia is stable as it gets and while Kosovo is unstable we are not any closer to it then any other country bordering Serbia... I joust don’t see how Kosovo crisis would affect us any more then those countries…

Best regards,
Isthvan

 

[contedicavour]

Unfortunately I understand what you mean… But situation in Bosnia is stable as it gets and while Kosovo is unstable we are not any closer to it then any other country bordering Serbia... I joust don’t see how Kosovo crisis would affect us any more then those countries…

Best regards,
Isthvan

Agree. Besides Croatia would already be in the EU if it wasn't for that issue with war crimes tribunal in the Hague looking for one of the former Croatian generals... what a waste of time, Croatia belongs in Europe, just as Slovenia.

I think EU rules allow for military sales to Croatia without problems. I know of Italian coastal defence radars being installed, of Swedish RBS-15 SSMs being sold. However I'm not familiar with German legislation on the matter, so I leave this to Waylander

cheers

 

[Waylander]

You all know that government policiy is often enough about opinions and the feeling of the people and not about hard facts.