Actually the Gozdizk propaply means 2S1 Gvozdika which has the same automotive parts as MT-LB, but Dana has nothnig to do with MT-LB, in fact it has nothing to do with anything moving on tracks as it's one of the few operational wheeled SP systems...
European Armour
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I think the most advantage of the PzH2000 and other modern arti systems is not range but fast firing and digital firing computers.
You could also do the same with an older 155mm howitzer but you would not be able to get the same amount of rounds at the target and you would have to calculate the operation manually.
It seems like Poland is much more equipped in cold war style than most other NATO countries.
Nearly 1000 tanks is huge even if you consider that more than 500 are T-72 (Are these M1?)!
You could also do the same with an older 155mm howitzer but you would not be able to get the same amount of rounds at the target and you would have to calculate the operation manually.
It seems like Poland is much more equipped in cold war style than most other NATO countries.
Nearly 1000 tanks is huge even if you consider that more than 500 are T-72 (Are these M1?)!
It's known technically as a "multiple simulataneous impacting rounds" (MSIR) and works much as Waylander described.
It works by calculating different trajectories for multiple projectiles. The initial rounds fired have longer more rounded trajectories, the later ones fired have more direct, straighter trajectories.
It can't be done at the weapon systems maximum range, but it can be done at tactically useful ranges. It can be done by many artillery systems not soley the PHZ 2000, the artillery directing and fire control equipment is what's important for this capability, not the calibre, type or kinematic performance of the weapon system. Many artillery systems have this capability, though newer systems can probably do it at greater ranges.
It works by calculating different trajectories for multiple projectiles. The initial rounds fired have longer more rounded trajectories, the later ones fired have more direct, straighter trajectories.
It can't be done at the weapon systems maximum range, but it can be done at tactically useful ranges. It can be done by many artillery systems not soley the PHZ 2000, the artillery directing and fire control equipment is what's important for this capability, not the calibre, type or kinematic performance of the weapon system. Many artillery systems have this capability, though newer systems can probably do it at greater ranges.
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That abillity to achieve multiple impacts with an howitzer is pretty cool. Isn´t there a missile or bomb that achieves this in way of bomblets, don´t know the name of the weapon.
Also, waylander, the PZh2000, besides having modern fire control computers, and used with the cobra radar, the ability of counterbatery fire, must have something else to offer? gun design, range, reliability, ability to sustain almost continuous operation for longer periods without tube problems, propellant/obus type?
Would it be feasible economically and technically to update some older systems with modern fire control computers in order to achieve good capabilities,in some aspects almost as good as modern systems?
Also what would be the tipical constitution of a batery of howitzers such as pZH 2000 when deployed?
.pt
Also, waylander, the PZh2000, besides having modern fire control computers, and used with the cobra radar, the ability of counterbatery fire, must have something else to offer? gun design, range, reliability, ability to sustain almost continuous operation for longer periods without tube problems, propellant/obus type?
Would it be feasible economically and technically to update some older systems with modern fire control computers in order to achieve good capabilities,in some aspects almost as good as modern systems?
Also what would be the tipical constitution of a batery of howitzers such as pZH 2000 when deployed?
.pt
Grand Danois
Entertainer
And Denmark, where we will replace 76 M109A3 with 36 FH77BD SPH from 2010.rattmuff said:Can't wait until the "Archer" enters service in Sweden. Canada, India and Australia among others has shown interest....
FH77BD AKA Archer.
IIRC, Denmark is paying for the gun to meet NATO specs.
I have a question since we're talking about artillery now.
I take it this has been something that has been done since the beginning of the 20th century, as I remember reading about it on the Eastern Front in the First World War; battery duels. When an artillery battery opens up, how is it that other batteries, usually enemy, are able to pinpoint their location, return fire, and knock them out? Now, I've never been in the military before (I can't - exposed right middle eardrum), but can you see the artillery rounds flying through the air? I'd imagine you would be able to full well hear the batteries open fire, but definitely not see them.
Just curious.
I take it this has been something that has been done since the beginning of the 20th century, as I remember reading about it on the Eastern Front in the First World War; battery duels. When an artillery battery opens up, how is it that other batteries, usually enemy, are able to pinpoint their location, return fire, and knock them out? Now, I've never been in the military before (I can't - exposed right middle eardrum), but can you see the artillery rounds flying through the air? I'd imagine you would be able to full well hear the batteries open fire, but definitely not see them.
Just curious.
I don't know how you can stop enemy shells but you are able to see all the shells using an artillery locating radar. The swedish one is called ARTHUR.Ranari said:I have a question since we're talking about artillery now.
I take it this has been something that has been done since the beginning of the 20th century, as I remember reading about it on the Eastern Front in the First World War; battery duels. When an artillery battery opens up, how is it that other batteries, usually enemy, are able to pinpoint their location, return fire, and knock them out? Now, I've never been in the military before (I can't - exposed right middle eardrum), but can you see the artillery rounds flying through the air? I'd imagine you would be able to full well hear the batteries open fire, but definitely not see them.
Just curious.
As I said the range is about 40 km with extended range ammo and a little bit more than 30km with normal ammo. During trials in Southafrica it achieved a max. range of 56km.
It's firing rate is 3 rounds/10sec, 8 rounds/1min, 20 rounds/3min.
The reload system is an autoloader, the loader just have to put in the porpellant charge.
It has 60 rounds inside without any reserve ammo. During the loading the computer automatically sorts the ammo, with the effect that every type of ammo is available all the time.
The accuracy is not more than 40 meters on 40 km without intelligent ammo. In artillery terms everything within 50 meters is counted as a direct hit.
For example there is a small radar over the tube which scans every shot and gives the data to the computer for correction. Together with it's three laser-gyroscopes, GPS and other gizmos this makes it so accurate from every position without measured positions. It is also ready very fast. There are only 30 sec. between movement and firing and another 30 sec till its gone.
It is able to run fully autonomous but it's capabilities are best used within an ADLER network. Together with a mobile C3-HQ, the COBRA radars and the FACs there is no need for fixed formations. Every PzH is able to hide and search its own firing places without ever seeing a comrade and getting it's coordinates from its own TC or from the network. This makes enemy counterfire extremely difficult because it is gone very fast and there are no massed artillery positions were you could fire on.
It has also ERA on top against enemy bomblets.
As for organisation.
One of our artillery btls consist of one staff/logistic/C3 company, three firing batteries with 8 tubes each and one recon batterie with the FACs on Puma (Now Marder) and Fennek, three ABRAS (older fire finder radars) and two COBRAS.
There is a video of the PzH 2000. It is short and in german but the pictures should give you some insight on the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQYd5XvZJnI
It's firing rate is 3 rounds/10sec, 8 rounds/1min, 20 rounds/3min.
The reload system is an autoloader, the loader just have to put in the porpellant charge.
It has 60 rounds inside without any reserve ammo. During the loading the computer automatically sorts the ammo, with the effect that every type of ammo is available all the time.
The accuracy is not more than 40 meters on 40 km without intelligent ammo. In artillery terms everything within 50 meters is counted as a direct hit.
For example there is a small radar over the tube which scans every shot and gives the data to the computer for correction. Together with it's three laser-gyroscopes, GPS and other gizmos this makes it so accurate from every position without measured positions. It is also ready very fast. There are only 30 sec. between movement and firing and another 30 sec till its gone.
It is able to run fully autonomous but it's capabilities are best used within an ADLER network. Together with a mobile C3-HQ, the COBRA radars and the FACs there is no need for fixed formations. Every PzH is able to hide and search its own firing places without ever seeing a comrade and getting it's coordinates from its own TC or from the network. This makes enemy counterfire extremely difficult because it is gone very fast and there are no massed artillery positions were you could fire on.
It has also ERA on top against enemy bomblets.
As for organisation.
One of our artillery btls consist of one staff/logistic/C3 company, three firing batteries with 8 tubes each and one recon batterie with the FACs on Puma (Now Marder) and Fennek, three ABRAS (older fire finder radars) and two COBRAS.
There is a video of the PzH 2000. It is short and in german but the pictures should give you some insight on the system.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQYd5XvZJnI
mikehotwheelz
New Member
So in theory using MSIR from one battery of 8 tubes you could impact 40 rounds simultaneously on a single target...now that would certainly ruin your picnic!
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Of course Wiki had an article on the subject.
Well our 155K98 which is a towed system has a TALIN-2000 firecontrol combuter and as it linked to the radio, you recive the firing orders directly to the gun and you just traverse and elevate the gun untill it says "good, good". I doupt that any SP system can do it considerably faster, at least not as fast than I did it
When we fired "number four" charges with the D-30, which was the smallest charges that could be shot, we could see the piggie flying in the air if you knew exactly where to look. It was kinda weird. But the number four charges where used in very short distances (the range was only 3 km max.) and mostly due the peacetime restrictions. In warsituations, I doupt there would be very much of usage for the smallest charges...at least I hope so, becouse it would mean the enemy is getting close
There are T-72 M/M1. They will replace by PT 91. Finally the number of tanks will close to 700- 800.
The howitzer GOŹDZIK ( Russian technology) will replace by KRAB which fulfil NATO standards. Please find below some data.
Divisional Fire Module of 155mm self-propelled howitzer KRAB
Technical data
Calibre 155 mm
Length of barrel 52 calibres
Firing rate (continuous) 3/10s
Firing intensive 6/min
Practical In emergency system 2/min
Dimensions:
length max. 12,7 mm
width max. 81 mm
height: to roof of turret 3 110 mm
shipment height 3 420 mm
max. with AA machine gun 3 832 mm
Crew (commander, gunner, two loader, driver) 5 persons
Range with standard ammunition 30 km
Range with extended range ammunition 40 km
Travel speed:
on paved roads 60 km/h
on country roads 15 km/h
off roads 30 km/h
Travel range with full fuel tanks 650 km
Number of gears 7 + rear
Designation
Divisional Firing Module of 155mm of self-propelled howitzers is a basic tactical firing module of land forces artillery. Divisional Firing Module consists of:
http://cpw.hsw.pl/eng/s_krab_m.php
- 155mm self-propelled howitzers ''KRAB'' - 18 guns,
- automated Command and Fire Control System ''AZALIA'',
- logistic Support System ''WARAN''.
Automated Command and Fire Control System ''AZALIA''
Automated fire control system of artillery division AZALIA is designated to support work of function persons in artillery division in the scope of commanding and control the equipment:
- ammunition vehicles on off-road trucks of medium capacity adapted for transporting
155mm ammunition in containers and mechanized unloading and loading,
- automation of commanding and firing procedures at the division level covering
all firing position,
- supporting the commander during execution combat mission,
- automation of ballistic calculations and digital transmitting the orders and messages,
- automatic and permanent control of logistic situation, inspection of mission execution
and checking regularity of data circulation in the system.
Logistic Support System ''WARAN''
The System consists of following elements:
- ammunition carriers on off-road trucks of medium capacity, adapted for transportation
155mm ammunition in containers and mechanized loading and unloading,
- maintenance workshop for mechanical vehicles - evacuation tractor made on the basis
of tracked chassis,
- maintenance workshop for armament and electronics - evacuation tractor made
on the basis of tracked chassis.
The Workshops provides technical support of division in scope of: field repairs, technical maintenance and services, delivery of LRU and spare parts, evacuation of combat vehicles to repair bases.
The howitzer GOŹDZIK ( Russian technology) will replace by KRAB which fulfil NATO standards. Please find below some data.
Divisional Fire Module of 155mm self-propelled howitzer KRAB
Technical data
Calibre 155 mm
Length of barrel 52 calibres
Firing rate (continuous) 3/10s
Firing intensive 6/min
Practical In emergency system 2/min
Dimensions:
length max. 12,7 mm
width max. 81 mm
height: to roof of turret 3 110 mm
shipment height 3 420 mm
max. with AA machine gun 3 832 mm
Crew (commander, gunner, two loader, driver) 5 persons
Range with standard ammunition 30 km
Range with extended range ammunition 40 km
Travel speed:
on paved roads 60 km/h
on country roads 15 km/h
off roads 30 km/h
Travel range with full fuel tanks 650 km
Number of gears 7 + rear
Designation
Divisional Firing Module of 155mm of self-propelled howitzers is a basic tactical firing module of land forces artillery. Divisional Firing Module consists of:
http://cpw.hsw.pl/eng/s_krab_m.php
- 155mm self-propelled howitzers ''KRAB'' - 18 guns,
- automated Command and Fire Control System ''AZALIA'',
- logistic Support System ''WARAN''.
Automated Command and Fire Control System ''AZALIA''
Automated fire control system of artillery division AZALIA is designated to support work of function persons in artillery division in the scope of commanding and control the equipment:
- ammunition vehicles on off-road trucks of medium capacity adapted for transporting
155mm ammunition in containers and mechanized unloading and loading,
- automation of commanding and firing procedures at the division level covering
all firing position,
- supporting the commander during execution combat mission,
- automation of ballistic calculations and digital transmitting the orders and messages,
- automatic and permanent control of logistic situation, inspection of mission execution
and checking regularity of data circulation in the system.
Logistic Support System ''WARAN''
The System consists of following elements:
- ammunition carriers on off-road trucks of medium capacity, adapted for transportation
155mm ammunition in containers and mechanized loading and unloading,
- maintenance workshop for mechanical vehicles - evacuation tractor made on the basis
of tracked chassis,
- maintenance workshop for armament and electronics - evacuation tractor made
on the basis of tracked chassis.
The Workshops provides technical support of division in scope of: field repairs, technical maintenance and services, delivery of LRU and spare parts, evacuation of combat vehicles to repair bases.
mikehotwheelz
New Member
Ok we've talked tanks and now SP Artillery systems, how about AIFVs?
The CV90 seems to be the vehicle of choice for those European countries who haven't a homegrown AIFV of there own. It seems to tick all the right boxes and comes in a variety of versions.
The new German Puma looks to echo the PzH2000 as a very capable but very expensive piece of kit.
The Warrior, though getting a bit long in the tooth is still a pretty formidable machine. Certainly the best thing British soldiers have ever had to ride around in. It's only real flaw is the unstabilized cannon.
The Ulan/Pizarro and Dardo look up to scratch too.
So why don't the French have a tracked AIFV and why are the Poles going to be buying all those wheeled Patrias? Is it the for same reason that Britain is sending Prinzgaurs (God help us) to Afghanistan? i.e. that tracked vehicles look too agressive(!) in a "hearts and minds" low intensity war. Or is is for reasons of economy?
How do you guys rate the importance of tracked vs. wheeled AIFVs in this day and age?
The CV90 seems to be the vehicle of choice for those European countries who haven't a homegrown AIFV of there own. It seems to tick all the right boxes and comes in a variety of versions.
The new German Puma looks to echo the PzH2000 as a very capable but very expensive piece of kit.
The Warrior, though getting a bit long in the tooth is still a pretty formidable machine. Certainly the best thing British soldiers have ever had to ride around in. It's only real flaw is the unstabilized cannon.
The Ulan/Pizarro and Dardo look up to scratch too.
So why don't the French have a tracked AIFV and why are the Poles going to be buying all those wheeled Patrias? Is it the for same reason that Britain is sending Prinzgaurs (God help us) to Afghanistan? i.e. that tracked vehicles look too agressive(!) in a "hearts and minds" low intensity war. Or is is for reasons of economy?
How do you guys rate the importance of tracked vs. wheeled AIFVs in this day and age?
ISAF (The swedes) have (Or maybe had, I don't knwo if they are still there) some CV90 in A-stan.
In the end they do not leave the camp very often and one of the reasons the tracks abrade very fast.
But in the end A-stan is for sure one of the countrys were tracked vehicles have the most problems.
For peacekeeping missions normally wheeled IFV are the vehicles of choice due to maintenance issues and better street performance.
For this the Piranha family is one of the best IFVs in europe.
If you want to have a real bad IFV (And have the money ) for your mechanized infantry working together with your tanks in a full scale engagement you should go for the CV90 or Puma.
The Puma is the best protected IFV in service and it's electronic is superb.
The CV90 is one of the vehicles a buyer could dream of because of its possible configurations and the swedes are also good in terms of electronics.
If you look at the Lebanon many israelie tankers said that they had not enough infantry support. It looks like that their concept of just using heavy APCs is not the best way.
As for the question tracked or wheeled.
It is really difficult to say. Wheeled vehicles are cheaper to operate and show better performance on streets and roads.
But for supporting your tanks heavy tracked IFVs are the weapon of choice. The question is what do you want. An army which is more in intervention and peacekeeping missions or heavy full scale warfare army which main task is classic mechanized operations.
In the end they do not leave the camp very often and one of the reasons the tracks abrade very fast.
But in the end A-stan is for sure one of the countrys were tracked vehicles have the most problems.
For peacekeeping missions normally wheeled IFV are the vehicles of choice due to maintenance issues and better street performance.
For this the Piranha family is one of the best IFVs in europe.
If you want to have a real bad IFV (And have the money
) for your mechanized infantry working together with your tanks in a full scale engagement you should go for the CV90 or Puma.The Puma is the best protected IFV in service and it's electronic is superb.
The CV90 is one of the vehicles a buyer could dream of because of its possible configurations and the swedes are also good in terms of electronics.
If you look at the Lebanon many israelie tankers said that they had not enough infantry support. It looks like that their concept of just using heavy APCs is not the best way.
As for the question tracked or wheeled.
It is really difficult to say. Wheeled vehicles are cheaper to operate and show better performance on streets and roads.
But for supporting your tanks heavy tracked IFVs are the weapon of choice. The question is what do you want. An army which is more in intervention and peacekeeping missions or heavy full scale warfare army which main task is classic mechanized operations.
mikehotwheelz
New Member
The Piranha is the same as the LAV, isn't it?
I've read alot of blogs and forums in which American servicemen and former servicemen bad-mouth the LAV for it's lack of protection against mines and IEDs.
As the greatest risk to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are IEDs we need something with better blast protection. I'm horrified when I see pictures of the Prinzgaur with the driver position directly over the front wheels. The UK has all these Saxons sitting around in Germany and England, wouldn't they be better suited to the Afghan environment? I know they're big, ugly and agressive looking machines but our soldier's protection should come before political correctness.
I've read alot of blogs and forums in which American servicemen and former servicemen bad-mouth the LAV for it's lack of protection against mines and IEDs.
As the greatest risk to our troops in Afghanistan and Iraq are IEDs we need something with better blast protection. I'm horrified when I see pictures of the Prinzgaur with the driver position directly over the front wheels. The UK has all these Saxons sitting around in Germany and England, wouldn't they be better suited to the Afghan environment? I know they're big, ugly and agressive looking machines but our soldier's protection should come before political correctness.
mikehotwheelz
New Member
Waylander said:
So how do the French infantry keep up with their (extremely nimble) Leclercs when all they have are wheeled AMX 10RCs?
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DoC_FouALieR
New Member
Because we have in France a very clever (!) burocratie that was thoughting that a wheeled vehicle can perform the same tasks than a tracked one.
Anyway, they wanted to reduce the upkeep cost of the new IFV, so we now have the VBCI, a 8x8 that cannot, in my humble opinion, follow an assault lead by our Leclercs...
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