European Armour

[Gladius]

But your Leos were leased before you bought them, weren't they?

Yes, but the 108 Leo 2A4 were initialy leased for 5 years only. The contract of leasing (8,926 €/u each year) finalized in 2001, then we had to return the Leopards to Germany, but obviously we never send them back...

 

[Waylander]

Gladius just told us that we just get 124 mill $ for 118 Leo 2A4.
That is really cheap. (Ok the ones for Poland were much cheaper but we wanted to give them a NATO compatible brigade as starting help)

 

[Waylander]

I really, really like the E version. All these little (and bigger) gimmicks I would like to see on our Leos.
It would have been costlier for us to get them back and put them in one of our depots.
And you are NATO so it is not wasted.

 

[Grand Danois]

Shouldn't sound arrogant of me.
I would be interested to know what these other gimmicks are.

I added that because I am not certain what is unique to the 2A5DK version.

Here is a link with a description of said tank. Perhaps you can figure it out.

http://www.armyvehicles.dk/leopard2a5.htm

 

[Waylander]

The main differences seem to be the APU, the air condition and something they did with the tanks against explosions.

 

[.pt]

The big problem about the price of those Leos is that the price is not "market" and reality driven, but very much political, hence diferences on the price of more or less the same basic unit, but different customer country.
I just hope that those Leos we are buying from Netherlands come at a very good price, we are the poor people in Europe. But i think they are trying to sell some ships (frigates???) to our navys as well, so that might help.
As someone else said theres a special sale on Leo MBT right know, so its the best time to get them, they´re selling hot!
.pt

 

[Waylander]

At least there should be 3-4 countrys trying to get rid of some of their Leos.

First Germany. Even with all the sales in the last time we have huge stocks of Leo 2A4 and we are also able to offer related upgrade and maintenance contracts.

Second Netherlands. I don't know how many they have in stock ready for sale but that they are selling nearly new Leopard 2A6 is a good offer.

Third Switzerland. The are also reducing their heavy equipment and try to sell some of their Leo IIA4. They are interesting for mountain customers due to their extra engine silencers.

And maybe forth party is Sweden. I remember that I heard that they want to sell some of their Strv. 121 (Leo 2A4) and "just" operate Strv.122 and 123 in the future.

 

[contedicavour]

The big problem about the price of those Leos is that the price is not "market" and reality driven, but very much political, hence diferences on the price of more or less the same basic unit, but different customer country.
I just hope that those Leos we are buying from Netherlands come at a very good price, we are the poor people in Europe. But i think they are trying to sell some ships (frigates???) to our navys as well, so that might help.
As someone else said theres a special sale on Leo MBT right know, so its the best time to get them, they´re selling hot!
.pt

Good point, you are awaiting 2 Karel Doorman FFGs but at what cost ?
To go back to armour subject, all of these excellent surplus MBTs will most likely kill any new MBT programme for decades. I think even the French won't repeat the Leclerc mess twice (each unit is sold at a loss, just to keep GIAT afloat with its workforce), neither will we with Ariete, and Leo2A6s are modern enough to be kept in service for another 20+ years at least.
The British will end up replacing challengers with US MBTs since no UK government would embark on a national programme for 300 MBTs maximum...
Question is, who will keep the German defence industry alive until somebody orders Leo3s in 2030 ??

cheers

 

[Waylander]

You should think about that many of the sold Leos are A4s.
So upgrading them in the future could be a big thing.
Together with american companys KMW and Rheinmetall could be the best placed companys for vehicles in the future.
And they are not just producing tanks but modern artillery (PzH 2000), scout vehicles (Fennek), APCs (Boxer), IFVs (Puma), well protected smaller vehicles (Dingo, Mungo), etc. which are worlds most modern toys.
They are able to present a customer a whide range of vehicles and variants.

 

[contedicavour]

You should think about that many of the sold Leos are A4s.
So upgrading them in the future could be a big thing.
Together with american companys KMW and Rheinmetall could be the best placed companys for vehicles in the future.
And they are not just producing tanks but modern artillery (PzH 2000), scout vehicles (Fennek), APCs (Boxer), IFVs (Puma), well protected smaller vehicles (Dingo, Mungo), etc. which are worlds most modern toys.
They are able to present a customer a whide range of vehicles and variants.

Yep I agree. Though MBTs represented a big chunk of turnover historically. Even the wonderful PzH 2000 are replacing older M109Ls at a rate which is very far away from 1:1. The US Congress killed one of the big projects for new self propelled artillery not that much time ago.
Tracked AIFVs are being produced in very low quantities and in ratios like
1:5 vs the M113 family of products.
The cake is getting alarmingly smaller ope

cheers

 

[Waylander]

Yes for sure the numbers are not as big as in the cold war but in the end I think that there will be less numbers with increased capabilities with which you are able te substitute the lack of manpower.

 

[turin]

Well, the mission scenarios have changed as well, so we simply dont need the massive numbers of armor we were used to anymore.
While capabilities are increasing - after all, thats simply technological evolution - you cannot wholly replace quantitiy by quality, so there will inevitably be a loss in terms of overall capabilities. You cannot put a unit somewhere if its simply not there. Its the same as with air forces and navies replacing standing units.
However since the scenarios these capabilities where planned for are no longer valid, its convenient to reduce capabilities to a certain degree. Certainly we dont need the armor power to counter some Red Army push through the Fulda Gap anymore.

By the way: whats the current situation of Leo 2A4 reserves with Bundeswehr anyway? It was my impression that our stocks are almost depleted.

 

[Waylander]

I have to search for exact numbers but as long as I know there should be still some 500-600 left.
Over 2000 have been built and If you look at how many has been exported or converted into A5/A6(M) there have to be at least some hundreds left.
The Problem is that the MoD never talked about how many MBTs are going to stay in stocks.
I would not be surprised if some people in the government would like to see them all sold.

I also agree with you if you say that you cannot always substitute quantity with quality and I think that some european countrys try to do this too much.

 

[swerve]

I have to search for exact numbers but as long as I know there should be still some 500-600 left.
Over 2000 have been built and If you look at how many has been exported or converted into A5/A6(M) there have to be at least some hundreds left.
The Problem is that the MoD never talked about how many MBTs are going to stay in stocks.

If the counts below are right (I could have sworn I've already posted this, but never mind), Germany has 972 Leopard 2 built, but not sold. Some may be gate guards, in museums, written off - but the number left should be close to that.

Some years ago, the Bundeswehr said that numbers would be cut to ca 850, including reserves. That may well have changed since then.

Leopard 2.

Bought/sold Total
New
Switzerland 370
Netherlands 445
-115 330
-52 278
-36 242

Sweden 120
Greece 170
Spain 219
Germany 380
(batches) 450 830
300 1130
300 1430
370 1800
150 1950
100 2050
75 2125
-160 1965
-52 1913
-124 1789
-128 1661
-183 1478
-298 1180
-100 1080
-108 972

2nd hand Source
Sweden 160 (Germany)
Austria 115 (Netherlands)
Denmark 52 (Germany)
Norway 52 (Netherlands)
Finland 124 (Germany)
Poland 128 (Germany)
Greece 183 (Germany)
Turkey 298 (Germany)
Chile 100 (Germany)
Spain 108 (Germany)
Portugal 36 (Netherlands)

Total 3449

 

[Waylander]

What a shame, I did not hear of this (850 will be in stocks).
Thanks for this.

 

[Grand Danois]

Anyone out there with a liking for second hand Leopard 1 A5's ?

Denmark has about 230 leftovers - any takers ?

 

[Waylander]

I would really like to have one but I think my neighbours would hate me because of the parking situation here.
And because of that I have to drive an old T-55T next January instead of a lovely Leo 1 just for the tank feeling.

 

[.pt]

Great Dane,

That depends on the price, if you really have an competitive price, i´m sure i can find some space in my backyard:laugh
And if i could pay in small installments:roll
I´m sure some country will grab them when they run out of parts for their M 60 or T 55, if the price is right and you´re not too rough on the customer.
What a sale!!!
.pt

 

[Grand Danois]

Oh man! I live in a flat. What am I to do if I want one? :wah

But another thing comes to mind. If a Leo 1 A5 should have an upgrade, what should be done?

What I would do is:

• Keep the 105mm M68/L7 gun, but look for updated ammo.
  
  
• Keep the fire controls - it's better than that on the Leo 2 A4. But look for possible COTS replacements where it may prove beneficial logistically and maintenance-wise. Perhaps install some stand alone GPS navigation.
  
  
• Refurb engine, transmission and suspension.
  
  
• Add about a tonne of applique armour.

Reasonable? Or do you have better ideas?

 

[kams]

I could use one of them for drive to work (Driving in New Jersey is terrible) and parking is not a problem . Don't care about the main gun. I can save on insurance too, I don't need one..others on road do.