European Armour

[contedicavour]

You all know that government policiy is often enough about opinions and the feeling of the people and not about hard facts.

Absolutely, though I remember well that Germany was one of the first countries to recognize independent Croatia in 1991... and public opinion seems to be firmly on the same side So shipping a few mothballed Leo2s to a friend shoudln't be an issue !
Btw, I'm still hoping that our army will wake up and replace the Leo1A5s with some Leo2A4s, instead of building Centauro 8x8 120mm. Restarting the production line of Arietes is unfortunately not economically justifiable. Do you have an idea of the unitary cost of a second-hand Leo2A4 (no need for A6) ?

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Oops double post sorry on the cost of a second hand Leo2A4.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

IIRC we had an airlift/SALIS discussion on this thread. Some news that there might be a NATO unit like SALIS consisting of C-17's.

Last week the Danish minister of defense signed up for 150-300 hours of transport time a year, from a proposed NATO C-17 unit consisting of 4 C-17's.

Now how about that?

 

[contedicavour]

IIRC we had an airlift/SALIS discussion on this thread. Some news that there might be a NATO unit like SALIS consisting of C-17's.

Last week the Danish minister of defense signed up for 150-300 hours of transport time a year, from a proposed NATO C-17 unit consisting of 4 C-17's.

Now how about that?

Interesting. If we don't hurry up Boeing is closing its production line in California... so soon no possibility of buying C17s. Leasing them from the US is also unlikely as all US armed forces massively use C17s in Iraq, Afghanistan, bases in Korea and Japan and Guam...

cheers

 

[Waylander]

I think the last deal with Chile was round about 2 million each. But I really don't know what was included.

 

[.pt]

Aham, waylander,

I´m no expert on the matter, but 2 million USD, seems a bit cheap, for an aircraft of that size and capabilities. And the deal with Chile was used or new aircraft?
.pt

 

[Waylander]

I replied to contedicavours question about the price of second hand Leo IIA4s.

With them you are not able to fly more than 5 meters. But these 5 meters are pure fun!

 

[.pt]

well one only flies as much as one can, and with whats available!
Sorry then, my confusion.Wish it was true that pricetag for those aircraft.
.pt

 

[Gladius]

Well, the price would depend of the negotiations with the German government. In the past, the cost of the Leopards 2A4 ex-Bundeswehr has changed a lot, depending on the country buying them.

The 118 Leopard 2A4 for Chile, 124 Millions US$.

The Greek deal of 150 Leopard 1A5 and 183 Leopard 2A4 was of 324 Millions US$, (139 Millions US$ was the price of the MBTs, 185 Millions US$ to KMW for repairs, upgrades, and spec. tools)

IIRC Poland paid for 124 Leo 2A4, 22,5 Millions € (Jane's Dixit).

Our 108 Leopard 2A4 will cost us 16,2 Millions €, that is 150,000 €/u.

 

[Waylander]

But your Leos were leased before you bought them, weren't they?

 

[Grand Danois]

Well, the price would depend of the negotiations with the German government. In the past, the cost of the Leopards 2A4 ex-Bundeswehr has changed a lot, depending on the country buying them.

The 118 Leopard 2A4 for Chile, 124 Millions US$.

The Greek deal of 150 Leopard 1A5 and 183 Leopard 2A4 was of 324 Millions US$, (139 Millions US$ was the price of the MBTs, 185 Millions US$ to KMW for repairs, upgrades, and spec. tools)

IIRC Poland paid for 124 Leo 2A4, 22,5 Millions € (Jane's Dixit).

Our 108 Leopard 2A4 will cost us 16,2 Millions €, that is 150,000 €/u.

AAAAAAAAARGH!

Denmark paid 7-8 million €/unit for 51 Leo 2A4 and the upgrade to 2A5 standard.

 

[Waylander]

7-8 million €?
You seem to have enough money.
For this you could get a brand new Leopard II E or HEL.

 

[Grand Danois]

7-8 million €?
You seem to have enough money.
For this you could get a brand new Leopard II E or HEL.

Well, I had to convert 2.5 billion 1996 DKK to 2006 EUR, but it should be thereabouts.

51 brand new Leo 2A5 would have cost us 3.5 billion DKK in 1996 or an additional billion 1996 DKK.

Oh, and there are some small extra devices on the Danish Leo 2A5, that aren't on the standard 2A5.

I guess it is fire sale time on Euro heavy armour...

 

[Waylander]

All the available Leo 2A4 really dropped the price. And the Netherlands even sale some of their A6.

What is different on the Leo IIA5DK? I just know about the big coax light to show the crowd that they are at the bad end of the gun (For example in environments like Kosovo).

 

[Grand Danois]

All the available Leo 2A4 really dropped the price. And the Netherlands even sale some of their A6.

What is different on the Leo IIA5DK? I just know about the big coax light to show the crowd that they are at the bad end of the gun (For example in environments like Kosovo).

The white coax light is one of them. It also has a video camera in the rear for reverse driving, extra auxillary generators and air condition and some other small gimmickry. Mostly related to peace-keeping ops.

 

[Waylander]

The camera is standard for all A5 versions.

 

[Grand Danois]

The camera is standard for all A5 versions.

Well, my bad then.

 

[Waylander]

Shouldn't sound arrogant of me.
I would be interested to know what these other gimmicks are.

 

[contedicavour]

I think the last deal with Chile was round about 2 million each. But I really don't know what was included.

Wooow for 2 million each we'd buy 250 straight away if I were in charge... spread out over 5 years it would only represent 6.7% of yearly land forces investment budget !!

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

But your Leos were leased before you bought them, weren't they?

Right, and Spain was buying brand new Leo2Es, enough to push Germany to offer a sweet deal on the end-of-lease used Leo2A4s.
Would the Pzh-2000 order allow us to have same sweet conditions for potential second hand Leo2s ?

cheers