European Armour

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.pt

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  • #101
hmmph!!
Some Military you guys:p:
Perhaps you should invade some bar on the way home:crazy
As for beaches try Porto santo, it even has a NATO sponsored runway/Airport
and from there you can leapfrog to western Africa.
Back to topic, can anyone offer some more info on how those armored units are organized for the remaining countries?
Also, what is the real capability to move armor to other theather of operations than Europe? Ferries wouldnt hack it in open sea, could they??
.pt
 

Waylander

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The ferrys of the baltic sea and the ones between england and france should defenitely work.
The weather in the skagerrak/kattegat and in the channel can turn into a hell of a weather very fast.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I don't think the Europeans will ever lack civilian sealift for the military.

This is the company providing sealift for the US.

A.P. Moller-Maersk Group

11 May 2005 : Mærsk announces plans to purchase the rival shipping company P&O Nedlloyd for 2.3 billion euros (USD 2.96 billion). Some analysts believe the purchase is inspired by the undercapacity in the world container market. World trade is currently growing faster than ships are being built. By buying another large company, Mærsk will be able to expand its capacity by a third. With this purchase, Mærsk will be by far the largest single shipping company and the largest container line in the world with more than 550 vessels. From 11 May to 24 June 2005, Mærsk acquired 19.4% of Royal P&O Nedlloyd stocks.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
.pt said:
hmmph!!
Also, what is the real capability to move armor to other theather of operations than Europe? Ferries wouldnt hack it in open sea, could they??
.pt
Some, maybe not. But most should be OK.

Here are the north European routes operated by ro-ro ships - http://www.5stars-of-scandinavia.com/ferry/ferry_lines.html

As you see, lots of open sea crossed there.

Here's an example of an open ocean ro-ro ferry - sails to Iceland - http://www.ferry-site.dk/ferry.php?id=9227390&lang=en

That site is amazing. Lists huge numbers of current & past ferries, with photos & brief specs. Some are passenger/car, many are freight only, e.g. http://www.ferry-site.dk/ferry.php?id=9186182&lang=en
 

.pt

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Great ships. Never thought that there were so many ferrys and routes. Also some of them are really big, they seem to be able to transport MBt and APC/IFV in great style:smooth
So, as someone said earlier, when do we sail to Havana??:gun
Watchout Fidel:grab

back to topic:
Does any EU country possess something big for airlift like C5 or C 17? or is it all Hercules C-130??
It seems that on the sealift front there are no worrys, train is well covered also.
And what about training issues and expected profiency on these weapons?
I know for a fact that in Portugal, things are not well on that department, lack of money for proper training and maintenace is a plague. Also, the recent transition from conscript army to a professional one has done some dents, so i wouldn´t rate our army as very capable on the whole, with notable exception to some particular units.
.pt
 

Waylander

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Here in Germany there is not enough money as always. ;)
But it is enough for proper training and maintenance is ok.
We have a big training centre for our mechanized forces were oversized battallions are able to fight against each other with AGDUS, GPS, etc. (Like US NTC but not so big but maybe a bit more modern).
Our tank units often enough won CAT competitions and I never heard one bad word of other nations which trained together with our tank units.

The same for our infantry. Also modern training centres, etc.

I think we lack in jungle and desert training with not many units going to french-guyiana, egypt, US, etc. for training.
Artic conditions training is good due to our own winter and enough training together with scandinavian countrys and we have very good mountain infantry, which should be first class together with the italian, austrian and french units.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
.pt said:
Does any EU country possess something big for airlift like C5 or C 17? or is it all Hercules C-130??
.pt
The UK has 4 C-17, & may get another one. Germany & a few other countries have an arrangement for the use of civilian An-124.
 

rattmuff

Lurk-loader?
swerve said:
The UK has 4 C-17, & may get another one. Germany & a few other countries have an arrangement for the use of civilian An-124.
Strategic Airlift Interim Solution (SALIS)
Up to six An-124-100 are available.
 

DoC_FouALieR

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I think we lack in jungle and desert training with not many units going to french-guyiana, egypt, US, etc. for training.
Yeah, we in France have this possibility. BTW all of our officiers have to pass the commando training in jungle and desert environment.
 

.pt

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airlift

Those AN 124 are civilian cargo planes, but who owns them, european companies?
Also they can load up to 120 tons?
.pt
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
.pt said:
Those AN 124 are civilian cargo planes, but who owns them, european companies?
Also they can load up to 120 tons?
.pt
IIRC a civilian company based in Ukraine, so if you consider Ukraine as Europe... ;)

Lots of info in this article... Personally I think the C-17 is an excellent aircraft. But if basing and maintenance is also going to be provided by the US, it would be to much US content ie in reality not an European solution.

An-124 does 120,000 kg's.

U.S. Suggests NATO Allies Could Pool Money to Buy C-17 Aircraft

(Source: US State Department; issued July 26, 2006)

WASHINGTON --- The United States says European allies could pool their resources to buy four Boeing C-17 Globemaster III long-range cargo jets – a plan that would help reduce NATO’s chronic airlift shortage while providing more business for Boeing.

“We have an initiative on the table to collectively buy four C-17s,” Victoria Nuland, U.S. ambassador to NATO, said in a recent interview with the Washington File in Brussels, Belgium. “The price is good because the U.S. is buying so many. What we found is that many allies don’t need a whole plane. So if they come together here, they get a 10th of a plane, a 20th of a plane.”

The C-17 is the workhorse of the U.S. Air Force. The four-engine jet can transport about 77,000 kilograms of cargo over the distance of 2,400 nautical miles (4,450 kilometers). The U.S. Air Force is budgeted to buy180 aircraft. But during the Farnborough International Airshow, which ended July 23, in Great Britain, Boeing executives warned they soon would start shutting down the production line if more planes are not ordered. Once production halts, restarting the line significantly would increase the price of individual C-17 aircraft, which currently cost approximately $200 million apiece, according to the U.S. Air Force.

Recent NATO missions in Africa and South Asia have highlighted the need for the alliance forces to be able to deploy themselves over distances spanning thousands of kilometers, requiring modern transport aircraft. NATO forces rushed to Pakistan in October 2005 to assist in search-and-rescue missions after the devastating Central Asia earthquake. This summer, NATO is expanding its force in Afghanistan from under 10,000 troops to about 15,000 as its International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) begins operating throughout the country.

Strategic airlift “has been one of the long-standing shortfalls in European capabilities,” according to a 2005 report on the annual session of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. “Most hopes are pinned on the success of the Airbus A400M,” the report said. However, the A400M is a propeller-driven aircraft that carries approximately 25,000 kilograms of cargo over long distances, about one-third the payload of a C-17. Germany, France, Spain, the United Kingdom, Turkey, Belgium and Luxembourg are committed to acquiring a total of 180 of the Airbus aircraft, which is due to enter service in 2010.

U.S.-based Boeing and Europe-based Airbus are commercial rivals.

As an interim airlift measure, 15 NATO member countries in January signed a three-year renewable contract to charter six Russian and Ukrainian Antanov-124-100 transport aircraft. A single Antonov can carry up to 120,000 kilograms of cargo. “NATO has used Antonovs in the past to transport troops to and from Afghanistan, deliver aid to the victims of the October 2005 earthquake in Pakistan, and airlift African Union peacekeepers in and out of Darfur,” NATO officials said in June.

Nuland, the U.S. envoy to NATO, said several nations are interested in owning shares of aircraft rather than purchasing an entire airplane. And the ownership consortium would not necessarily restrict the aircraft to NATO missions.

Under the C-17 joint-ownership plan, “everybody collectively gets more lift, not only for NATO missions, but for national missions, for EU [European Union] missions, so this is a new kind of efficiency,” Nuland said. “It would be a consortium of allies and partners,” she said, adding that details still are being negotiated.

U.S. officials said the plan would include housing and maintaining the aircraft at Ramstein Air Base, Germany – a U.S.-run facility – significantly reducing maintenance and ownership costs associated with large aircraft.

“It’s a work in progress,” Nuland said. “But what’s most important is, can we actually solve the strategic lift problem or make significant progress in the strategic lift problem. Because now it’s proven that with Congo, with Darfur, with Pakistan, if you can’t get there, you can’t go.”

-ends-

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/article_007117.php
 
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rattmuff

Lurk-loader?
.pt said:
Those AN 124 are civilian cargo planes, but who owns them, european companies?
Also they can load up to 120 tons?
.pt
SALIS: the Strategic Airlift Interim Solution
On 23 March 2006 NATO put a multinational air- lift contract into effect.[1] Under the terms of the agreement, six Antonov An-124-100 strategic air lifters will be available to 15 NATO members. [2] Two Antonovs will be based at Leipzig-Halle air- port in Germany while the remaining four aircraft are held in reserve in Ukraine or Russia. Canada was among the original signatories of SALIS. [3]
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-nato.htm
Here you have more details on An-124-100
http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-an124.htm
 

.pt

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Airlift

I have read those articles, thanks Great dane!:)
It seems to me a bit risky, since Ukraine is still very close to Russia in Political terms, even after recent political changes, after all they are dependent on russian goodwill in so many aspects. The aircraft seems excelent, the payload is huge, 120 tons versus 77 tons for c-17, altough i dont know range or reliability versus C-17. The fact that Nato does not own, but leases the planes seems very budgetwise to me. As for outside dependance, either american or other third party,its life, EU countries can´t do all by themselves, theres just not enough money. And the A400M will provide some relief, i think.
.pt
 

.pt

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final countdown

well someone will, but give me some time, pls;)
.pt
 

contedicavour

New Member
European pooling of resources

European countries should pool resources to buy the largest of the transport aircrafts (C17s, I don't trust the reliability of AN124 at this stage). This already happens within NATO when the AWACS are pooled together using personnel from all member states.
The only problem with this is that it implies that all European countries would agree to when you are supposed to send troops where. Here's a big problem, as it rarely happens that France, UK, Germany and Italy (for example) all agree on any given foreign policy issue. Sad of course, but that's a fact.
So should we still reserve a part of our desperately small defence budget to fund a Euro-wide transport aircraft force ? Hmmmph I still prefer using the money to buy what my country can afford (obviously not C17).


Regarding the other subject I saw in this thread, pan-European training is a MUST and it does work. The joint Italian-Slovenian-Hungarian Alpine brigade based on our Julia Alpine brigade (Tridentina division), the Spanish-Italian Amphibious Joint Force, the French-German joint Armoured Brigade, so many examples of thousand of soldiers learning to work in a multinational environment. Even if your government decides a national operation, your soldiers will still be much better trained.

cheers
 

Waylander

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Aaah, you're here.
Thanks.
Could you provide some actual facts about the italian eqipment in terms of AFVs for us, please?
 

contedicavour

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Waylander said:
Aaah, you're here.
Thanks.
Could you provide some actual facts about the italian eqipment in terms of AFVs for us, please?
Yes, we've got 200 Dardo AIFVs, 560 Pumas* AIFVs (wheeled, still AIFVs), and approx 800 modernized M113s of different versions while we wait for money to build more Dardos.
There is also a programme for 8x8 AIFVs based on the Centauro, though numbers haven't been defined yet. These big AIFVs would be used by cavalry regiments.
I've got to go now, but be back soon.

cheers

*Pumas are approx 60% delivered as we speak, rest is being built
 
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