European Armour

[Grand Danois]

I could use one of them for drive to work (Driving in New Jersey is terrible) and parking is not a problem . Don't care about the main gun. I can save on insurance too, I don't need one..others on road do.

Actually, the insurance companies would pay you to keep that monster at home.

 

[swerve]

What a shame, I did not hear of this (850 will be in stocks).
Thanks for this.

AFAIK, the Bundeswehr intends to have 350 front-line Leopard 2. Does that mean that 500 will be kept in reserve? Or might some of them be put up for sale?

If Germany keeps 850, there are still quite a lot for sale -

Germany - ca 120
Switzerland - ca 100 declared to be available for sale.
Netherlands - still has at least 50, maybe 100, surplus.
Sweden - may sell some or all of the 160 Strv 121/Leopard 2A4

So, somewhere between 270 & 480, but not all the same standard.

 

[turin]

AFAIK, the Bundeswehr intends to have 350 front-line Leopard 2. Does that mean that 500 will be kept in reserve? Or might some of them be put up for sale?

That is indeed the question.
These 350 front-line units are supposed to be L2A5 and L2A6. I cant imagine that we would give up all reserves, but then politicians might call for that. Industry might do so as well since they certainly would like to produce and sell new Leos when we need them. From a military POV it would be foolish though.

 

[turin]

AFAIK, the Bundeswehr intends to have 350 front-line Leopard 2. Does that mean that 500 will be kept in reserve? Or might some of them be put up for sale?

That is indeed the question.
These 350 front-line units are supposed to be L2A6. I cant imagine that we would give up all reserves, but then politicians might call for that. Industry might do so as well since they certainly would like to produce and sell new Leos when we need them. From a military POV it would be foolish though.

 

[Waylander]

I would also think that many politicians would like to sell every little crap of military equipment they can get their hands on.
So these 850 Leos (Including the 350 operational ones) could be more wish than reality.
With thousands of our soldiers bound to oversea missions in Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan, Kongo, Horn of Africa and now Lebanon (Not to talk of the small operations) and more to come they think getting a peace dividend out of the army should never stop.

 

[mikehotwheelz]

The British will end up replacing challengers with US MBTs since no UK government would embark on a national programme for 300 MBTs maximum...

I very much doubt we would simply buy American next time around. There is a lot of national pride involved as we were the inventors of the tank after all. Thatcher rejected the Abrams and Leo for those very reasons when at the time the Leo would have seemed the most sensible option esp. after the Challenger 1's dismal performance.

In the end the Challenger 2 turned out to be a fantastic piece of kit with the best armoured protection of any tank in the world. Any upgrade looks to be of an Anglo/German nature, using the Leo's 1500hp powerpack and smoothbore gun. Such improvements will keep it at the forefront of military heavy-metal for many years to come.

 

[Big-E]

I very much doubt we would simply buy American next time around. There is a lot of national pride involved as we were the inventors of the tank after all.

I don't know. UK couldn't build the Astute class subs without the US. BAE is going to North America. MOD orders keep dropping and British factories are closing. Your losing your military infrastructure. hwell

 

[mikehotwheelz]

There's a world of difference between designing and building a tank and a nuclear sub!
And BAE seems to be buying up US companies rather than simply leaving Britain for pastures new.

 

[.pt]

All this talk about uk buying US mbt or not, and the still available numbers of Leo 2 in various configurations, plus the ongoing reduction in mbt numbers all over Europe, makes for a very difficult if not impossible environment for the development of any new projects in this area, for any single European country, Germany included, in the near future.
Perhaps an interesting idea, if politicians can set national pride and stupidity aside, would be to constitute an partnership for the construction of a series of armored vehicles in the future, something like Airbus, giving the countries wich already have an significant industrial base and know-how in this sector, such as Germany, UK, France, Italy and Spain (their company is now part of an american conglomerate??), an oportunity to survive, and possibly expand their operations in the future. Has this already been tried, or talked of, between the governments involved??
Also the idea of having a common platform, is very wise, in economical and logistical view, and "localised" versions can always be achieved, to acomodate everyones needs, i think. Some diversification is still possible.
Perhaps in the next decade studys will start on a new generation mbt, until then we´re stuck with the Leo 2 in several variants.
.pt

 

[Big-E]

There's a world of difference between designing and building a tank and a nuclear sub!And BAE seems to be buying up US companies rather than simply leaving Britain for pastures new.

BAE is going where the money is and it ain't Britain. Considering BAE makes your MBT I think there can be cause for some concern.

 

[mikehotwheelz]

BAE is going where the money is and it ain't Britain. Considering BAE makes your MBT I think there can be cause for some concern.

Yes it's a British company winning contract after contract in the USA so maybe it's your own contractors who should be concerned.

Sorry, I realise this has gone way off topic.

 

[mikehotwheelz]

if politicians can set national pride and stupidity aside,
.pt

I totally agree but that's a huge IF. The British wanted to buy the Leo 2 but Margaret Thatcher balked at the idea of the British army driving "Panzers":eek

Fitting a Leo powerpack and main gun could at least produce a kind of "hybrid" and help logistically.

 

[Waylander]

Yeah, you did the big step to a totally Leopard ruled western europe.

 

[Big-E]

Yes it's a British company winning contract after contract in the USA so maybe it's your own contractors who should be concerned.

Sorry, I realise this has gone way off topic.

Considering when they win a contract over here they build factories in their North America division. It's not cost effective to ship the parts overseas nor pay UK labor fees. The declining value of the dollar has attracted much investement as business becomes cheap to conduct. If BAE is to remain mostly in Britain MOD better pick up her orders. The only thing we need to be concered with is getting quality people (British engineers) who come with the factory transfer. Even the little hick town I'm in in the depressed part of my country has a BAE division in it. I have many good friends who came over from the UK to work there and they are VERY skilled at what they do. That's what makes BAE such a great company and the lead workers are coming over here.

 

[.pt]

As i have asked earlier, can someone tell me, if has there been talks at government level in Europe to make some kind of conglomerate to produce armored vehicles, in the last 20-30 years? Also, anyone know of any current project for a new MBT in Europe for the coming years?
Thanks
.pt

 

[Wooki]

As i have asked earlier, can someone tell me, if has there been talks at government level in Europe to make some kind of conglomerate to produce armored vehicles, in the last 20-30 years? Also, anyone know of any current project for a new MBT in Europe for the coming years?
Thanks
.pt

1995: General Dynamics, Santa Barbara Sistemas (GDSBS) (Spain) and Krauss-Maffei Wegmann GmbH (Germany) with the Leo 2E, would probably be the order of the day, in that it made significant changes to previous models and technology transfer streams both ways.

As to future MBTs you have a number of "F" projects floating around... FRES is one that comes to mind. But it depends upon what your definition of what an MBT is. The traditional concept has been under assault since the early 90's.

cheers

W

 

[Grand Danois]

A little thing wrt airmobility.

Dutch PzH 2000 goes to Afghanistan by C-17.

 

[Waylander]

There was not really much stream of technology in both ways.
KWM and Rheinmetall developed most of the new systems and offered them as the Leo IIEX from which customers could chose everything they wanted.
The spanish MoD wanted to implement its own optics and some other small things as well as a licensed production of most of the Leo IIE in Spain.

Rheinmetall and KMW were not very happy that after they signed the contract GD bought the company and they were in a hurry to protect their know-how.

 

[Wooki]

There was not really much stream of technology in both ways.
KWM and Rheinmetall developed most of the new systems and offered them as the Leo IIEX from which customers could chose everything they wanted.
The spanish MoD wanted to implement its own optics and some other small things as well as a licensed production of most of the Leo IIE in Spain.

Rheinmetall and KMW were not very happy that after they signed the contract GD bought the company and they were in a hurry to protect their know-how.

There is an IP barrier between Spain and the USA, but not so Spain and Germany. That is what I meant.

cheers

W

 

[.pt]

Thanks for the answer Wooki.
As for my MBT concept i was thinking more in the "traditional" type, with main gun, coax mg etc. Don ´t know much about those deviations from this concept you point out, just hope they (builders) don´t go straight to "mech" or "transformer" ideas, because i don´t see the technology for that right now.
I was just wondering if those companys from the countries i cited earlier made an cooperative project what kind of tank would come out, since all of these companys have very good capabilities and know how in this field.
I´ll check on that FRES project.
.pt