Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[ertinel]

a general say:The panther is a perfect howitzer it is the best distance only panther 40 km,panther's bullet explode in 20 m air,you can control with computer and it can do shoot full point shoot

Mod edit:

Once again, calm down and write legibly.

Which general?

40k's is standard for a 155mm howitzer these days.

In Europe alone, these howitzers are manufactured and capable of achieving this range:

PZH-2000, Archer, FH-77, Caesar, BAE M777.

Plenty of others worldwide can also do so. Many can fire further...

AD

 

[ertinel]

ohh!!!

i am sorry thanks

 

[fantasma]

Aegean army..a training unit (something like scouts? maybe not) that conducts air naval operations and landing operations like the last drill efes 2007 and same time there was also a drill code name Deniz Kurdu (Sea Wolf).

SENARYO DEĞİŞTİ

Önceki senelerde iki ülke arasındaki savaş üzerine kurulan senaryonun bu yıl turizm, terörist hareketler ve etnik kökenlilere karşı yapılan baskılar üzerine kurulu olduğu bildirildi. Senaryoda Kalyon Denizi'nde birbirine komşu mavi ve turuncu iki ülkenin uzun yıllardır komşu olmalarına rağmen birbirlerine karşı barışçı yönlerden çözümlenemeyen gerginlik sonucu çatışması anlatıldı. Turuncu ülkenin kendi topraklarında yaşayan mavi ülkenin vatandaşlarını etnik ayrımcılık sonucu göçe zorlamasıyla, turuncu ülkedeki etnik olaylarda 20 kişi öldü, 1200 kişi yaralandı. Turuncu ülkenin mavi ülkeye yönelik terörizme destek sağalaması iki ülkeyi karşı karşıya getirdi. Mavi ülke de önleyici anlayışla harekete geçti ve savaş başladı.

Tatbikatta özellikle hava hücum harakatı amfibi harekat ateş desteğinin koordinasyonu, elektronik harp, özel kuvvet harekatı, NBC harekatı icra edilecek. Envantere yeni giren silahlı sistemler etkin olarak kullanılacak. Tartibatta gerçek mühimmat kullanılıyor. Tatbikata Kara Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı'ndan 4 tabur 5 bölük, muhtelif tip ve sayıda destek silahı, Deniz Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı'ndan 2 firkateyn, 4 mayın gemisi, 1 denizaltı, 3 hücümbot, 1 helikopter, Hava Kuvvetleri Komutanlığı'ndan 8 uçak, 1 nakliye uçağı, 10 bin personel katılıyor. Tatbikatı 9 ülkeden gözlemciler de izliyor.

Efes Tatbikatı geçmişte basına ve halka açık olarak yapılıyordu. İzmir'den otobüslerle taşınan vatandaşlar yıllar boyunca tatbikatı canlı olarak izledi. Tatbikat 1999'da basına ve halka kapatıldı. 2003 yılına kadar süren tatbikata bu tarihte sonra ara verildi. 2003 yılından bu yana ilk kez yapılan Efes Tatbikatı'nın bundan sonra iki yılda bir, tek sayı ile biten yıllarda icra edileceği kaydedildi....
Efes-2007 Müşterek Atışlı Tatbikatı, Ege Ordusu Komutanlığı koordinatörlüğünde Kara, Hava ve Deniz Kuvvetlerine ait birlik ve unsurların katılımıyla gerçekleştiriliyor.

http://www.haber7.com/haber.php?haber_id=243427
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nVD5XIO8Kg"]YouTube - EFES-2007 Müşterek Fiili Atışlı Tatbikatı[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzSfJ1KEfds"]YouTube - Deniz Kurdu-2007 Tatbikatı[/ame]

This means that the threat is consisted by the coordination of this forces that has to cooperate in order to conduct a succesful landing to the greek islands..in these drills there is not only the participation of one branch but it needs interbranch coordination including airforce units, naval units, aviation battallion units, attack hellicopters lift helicopters, amphibian forces, commando units etc.

 

[beleg]

fantasma do you think your army will wait and play with marbles in case of war? Drills and exercises are their job, they must train and train very hard so they become deterrent and in case there is war they can get rid of the threat.

I must have said this before but i served on Syrian Border and we had similar drills and exercises in which we fought against Syrian Army combined with Airforce. I guess similar exercises are done by your army too, even though they don't make it to the news.

I think your basic military understanding should be enough that the amount of equipment and man power Aegean Army possesses is NOT enough for direct assault on more than one islands. Each major Aegean island is protected by Armored and Mech infantry brigades . You know that very well.

 

[JackGr]

From simple curiosity how strong are your forces in front of Armenia?I mean bases,armies etc.And just a note,media in both countries are not to be trusted,media are nowadays controlled.Thanks in advance.

 

[beleg]

On the eastern borders across the Caucasus region lies the 3rd Army. Its duty was to protect the major cities of Erzurum and Erzincan and hold the passes to Malatya in case of conflict with USSR. 3rd army is really the 3rd in equipment and manpower ranking. Eastern parts of Turkey don't have major airbases but the region is within the strike range of the bases in Malatya and Diyarbakir with some forward bases spread along other major population centers. Turkish F-16s have previously been stationed in Azerbaijan when Iran and Armenia threatened them. Armenia has been one of the main weapons smuggling points for PKK, secod after Iraq, recently its been written that the terrorists have bought up to 50 SA-7s from Armenia to use against TuAF strikes.

 

[JackGr]

Where this info about SA-7 comes?I doubt they even know how to use them,and I doubt they have the money to buy them too.But even if this true I don't think its ~2 km altitude range is a real threat for you airforce.

 

[beleg]

It was on news a while ago. PKK is one of the richest terrorist organizations , they take a huge amount of share from drug smuggling from east in to west. They also collect forced donations from some people inside EU. They can easily afford that much. As for the threat against TuAF , yes its not a big threat for the jets but helos are another story... Armed forces has been fitting all of the helos by IR Jamming Equipment and flare dispensers to cope with the threat...

 

[JackGr]

But judging from the hit-and-run tactic used by the airforce until now,I suppose we won't see any helos used in northern Iraq soon enough.From 0 to 10 which mark do you give to your Special forces(all together)?Which are their best and which their worst characteristics?Also,do you believe that the forces used in eastern turkey are probably much more experienced than the ones that are deployed across your borders with Greece?

 

[fantasma]

1 - The Special Forces Command are under DIRECT command of General Staff and are located in Ankara .

As for the commando brigades: There are 5 independent commando brigades, one airborne, one marine brigade = 7 brigades.

1st Commando Brigade: Kayseri (4th Army, 4th Corps)
2nd Commando Brigade: Bolu (4th Army, 4th Corps)
3rd Commando Brigade: Hakkari (2nd Army, 7th Corps)
4th Commando Brigade: Tunceli (3rd Army, 8th Corps)
5th Commando Brigade: Ankara (4th Army, 4th Corps)
The above brigades are independent, but under organization they take place under respective corps and armies.
Add to the above 3 independent commando regiments:

2nd Commando Regiment: Mardin (2nd Army, 7th Corps)
5th Commando Regiment: Gokceada&Bozcaada (4th Army)

this is quote by orko8 from other thread http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5685.html

If i understand well all these mentioned above by orko8 commando brigades belongs to the 4rth Army but they are under strictly command from the General Staff? If i dont misinterpet the above said by orko8 it means that 3 commando brigades belong to the 4rth army but their command is under G. Staff . Except those there are also units such as the Naval Marine Infantry Unit in Izmir (under Navy Command) plus the Amphibius Brigade in Foca (also not under the 4rth Army but under Navy Command if im correct) that also are based near Aegean coasts.

 

[beleg]

Helicopters are widely used in the internal security operations. So its still a risk. However we'll see the developments. I seriously doubt the ability of PKK to use these missiles. Special Forces have been dropped in various points by helos in the latest attacks of TuAF as well. Also CSAR helicopters of TuAF was also probably in the air or near the borders just as a precaution.

I am not in position to judge our Special Forces abilities or characteristics. All i can say is they train very tough and get their job done. They often join NATO competitions and their results can be found after some search on line.

As for your last questions , yes and no. Almost all the brigades in Turkey are deployed to Eastern Turkey now and then. But the most battle hardened are the Commando Brigades which are finally going to be composed of only professional soldiers in a few years. And they usually spend most of their times in East.

 

[Pro'forma]

Special forces might bring new contract to old East, all together, us.
Greece deployed good historical background and when are we
expecting their esthetic to give our old East holiday-centre location.
the old land, East mediterranean.

 

[JackGr]

My last question Beleg was because Turkey has 3 different kind of battlefields for SF,sea,desert(PKK etc) and common battlefield like in Evros.So someone trained in desert maybe will find it difficult to adopt to a completely different environment.

 

[beleg]

That applies just for ordinary units like the one i served.. Turkish Special Forces , Commandos, Naval Infantry and Peace Keeping Brigades , SAT & SAS teams (Seals) train in all the conditions available in Turkey.

 

[beleg]

this is quote by orko8 from other thread http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-5685.html

If i understand well all these mentioned above by orko8 commando brigades belongs to the 4rth Army but they are under strictly command from the General Staff? If i dont misinterpet the above said by orko8 it means that 3 commando brigades belong to the 4rth army but their command is under G. Staff . Except those there are also units such as the Naval Marine Infantry Unit in Izmir (under Navy Command) plus the Amphibius Brigade in Foca (also not under the 4rth Army but under Navy Command if im correct) that also are based near Aegean coasts.

Fantasma Commandos are not Special Forces Special Forces are an elite unit wearing Red Berrets and all professionals , while commandos are trained conscripts adept at fighting in rugged terrain and para dropping (for today) and wear blue berrets. Commando brigades are independent and mostly serve in S.E Turkey in internal security operations. All these units will be manned by professionals in a few years.

Amphibious Brigade and the Naval Marines are the same thing and are located in Izmir (Foca)

 

[JackGr]

So the only special forces in the 2nd largest army in NATO(Turkey) are 600 soldiers of OKK/MAK?

 

[fantasma]

My previous post was sent because i was surpriced to see that the Aegean Army a training unit includes 3 out of 5 commando brigades 1 commando regiment and also inside its operational responsibility area there is also an amphibius brigade -the last one under Turkish Navy command-
The reality that these brigades mostly operate nowadays in eastern southeastern Turkey cause of PKK it is an other story.

 

[beleg]

So the only special forces in the 2nd largest army in NATO(Turkey) are 600 soldiers of OKK/MAK?

That depends on your perspective. If in your eyes Rangers are Special Forces , then our Commando brigades should be counted as special forces as well. Turkish commandos are equivalent of US Rangers. However these are infantry units after all. And Their duty is similar to the duty of other infantry units.

OKK/MAK on the other hand is a part of truly elite professional units who are a part of Special Forces Army Corps. This army corps has OKK/MAK teams, SAT & SAT teams but actually only the OKK/MAK work under direct command of this Army Corps. The training they receive is very tough takes years. One example of this is , they shoot a target on the body of their buddies to increase the trust between the members of the team. I dont know if any other special forces on the world uses this technique. They are the guys who have captured Abdullah Ocalan (the leader of PKK) after his departure from the Greek Embassy in Kenya. They also captured the second man of PKK Semdin Sakık in N.Iraq.

It may all seem a little confusing so let me allow to quote one of orko's posts in this forum;

Here is a brief summary of elite/special forces of Turkey. Hope it helps.


SAT: Su Alti Taarruz (Underwater Demolition): Equivalent of Navy SEAL's. Under command of Navy.

SAS: Su Alti Savunma (Underwater Defense): Skilled at EOD, underwater engineering etc. Under command of Navy.

JOAK: Jandarma Ozel Asayis Komutanligi (Gendarmerie Special Security Command): Special Operations division of Gendarmerine. Skilled at protection of high level strategic targets, hostage rescue operations etc. It's size is roughly equivalent to regiment level.

JOH: Jandarma Ozel Harekat (Gendarmerie Special Operations). Consists of selected volunteer conscripts. Almost all of them are engaged in SE Turkey for anti-terror operations.

OKK: Ozel Kuvvetler Komutanligi (Special Forces Command): Name says it all: It's under direct command of General Staff. They are commonly known as "Bordo Bereliler" (Red [Maroon] Berets). Recently their size has been increased up to corps level.

MAK: Muharebe Arama Kurtarma (Combat Search and Rescue): Under OKK structure, skilled in CSAR/SAR missions as well as deep penetration operations.

DAK: Dogal Afet Arama Kurtarma (Natural Disaster Search and Rescue): Under OKK structure, skilled in disaster relief and search and rescue operations. Their last operation was in Pakistan.

Komando (Commando): Commonly known as "Mavi Bereliler" (Blue Berets). They consist of conscripts. There are 5 independent commando brigades. Almost all of them are in the region covering SE Turkey and N Iraq.

Hava Indirme Komando (Airborne Commando): There is an independent airborne commando brigade stationed in Kayseri. Along with Amfibi Deniz Piyade, they were on the very front line during 1974 Cyprus Operation.

Amfibi Deniz Piyade (Amphibious Marine): Stationed in Izmir, Eski Foca, Turkish Navy has one marine brigade, which has been in a vast modernization and reorganization process with LPD, LST, fast-LCT and AAV projects are underway.

POH: Polis Ozel Harekat (Police Special Operations): Equivalent of SWAT.

All of the above units, even the marine brigade, have been heavily involved in the struggle against seperatist terrorist organization, PKK.

Fantasma ;
The main reason 3 of the commando brigades are in 4th army is , this Army is not a part of NATO. The total man and equipment power of brigades in the 4th army is less then the ones stationed in Eastern Aegean islands.

 

[JackGr]

You are wrong the only Greek forces in Aegean are the 41st Infantry Regiment and 5 National Guard Commands which are basically conscripts serving their duty,very low manpower,the main Greek forces all 3 armies are stationed in mainland and Crete.Instead Turkey has near Aegean 3 commando Brigades and much more simple troops.In 1994-95 Turkish stationed there more than 30.000 troops so you can imagine how many more now...So who is offensive?

 

[fantasma]

5th Infantry Brigade (5η ΤΑΞΠΖ), based at Chania, Crete
88th Military Command (88η ΣΔΙ), based at Myrina, Lemnos
95th National Guard Higher Command (95η ΑΔΤΕ), based at Rhodes, Dodecanese
80th National Guard Higher Command (80ή ΑΔΤΕ), based at Kos, Dodecanese
79th National Guard Higher Command (79η ΑΔΤΕ), based at Samos
96th National Guard Higher Command (96η ΑΔΤΕ), based at Chios
98th National Guard Higher Command (98η ΑΔΤΕ), based at Lesbos
2nd Communications, EW, Surveillance Regiment (2ο ΣΕΗΠΠΕΠ), based at Athens, Attica
Corps Engineer Command and units (ΔΜΧ/ΑΣΔΕΝ), based at Athens, Attica
291st Recruits Training Center (291o KEN), based at Syros, Cyclades
Corps HQ Battalion


The above formations it is well known that their manpower have very low rates..If you were in our place having troubles with your neighbour who is conducting drills in Aegean such as "Efes" combined with "Seawolf" and their primary target is how to perform naval blockade, a five day bombardment of the said area and finaly air assault, amphibius assault and the capturing of an island you would be thrilled letting your islands without any forces?

When the landing fleet is just opposite eastern aegean islands including
3 LST Osman Gazi, (900 troops each, or 15 MBT, 4 LCVP)
2 LST Terrebonne Parish (400 troops each, 4 LCVP)
2 LST 4080 tonnage (4 LCVP)
1 LST Cakabey (400 troops, or 9 MBT, 2 LCVP)
1 LST Sacurbey (600 troops, or 11 MBT, 2 LCVP)
30++ LCT (100 troops each, or 5 MBT)
22 LCM 113 tonnage
40-50 LVCP
you might say that the above landing fleet is senting an aggressive or a non-agressive message?

The following map shows the combat dispositions of turkish forces in western Turkey including units under naval command, air forces, parts of 4rth army etc..
http://img244.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4stratia13ccrn6.jpg