Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[fantasma]

Could you please answer to me if the training aegean army has under its command almost the entire special forces of the turkish army and the landing vessels of turkish navy? Is it true that the army that is based on northern Cyprus 11th army corps is under the command of the aegean army? Is it also true that the naval base of Aksaz south of Smirna at the aegean coasts harbours almost half of the turkish entire fleet? A few yrs ago also in Smirna opposite chios was transferred the naval base from Golcuk. 2 major naval bases with almost 2/3 of turkish fleet are based on aegean coasts.
All these factors and others gives no other alternative to Greece to heavily militarize as much as possible her defences over all greek aegean islands.

 

[beleg]

1 - The Special Forces Command are under DIRECT command of General Staff and are located in Ankara .

2 - The Amphibious Brigade located in Izmir is NOT a part of the Aegean Army , which as its name defines is under command of Land Forces while the Amphibious Brigade is under Command of Turkish Navy. Izmir was the headquarters of this brigade well before 70s and before Aegean Army was founded.

3 - Naval Base in Aksaz has nothing to do with Aegean Army. Once again, Army and Navy are different things.. Turkey has 2 Naval commands , Northern Sea Command and Southern Seas Command. Before Aksaz half of our ships were in Izmir which used to be the SSC and that didn't bother you but now we have moved that base to Aksaz which is the current SSC and you are complaining..

You really should read more about the structure of TSK before making comments .. They are far from the truth, and shows your lack of information.

 

[fantasma]

If you have data it would be rather interesting to bring here the western minor asia land forces synthesis, not only about the 4rth Army but the entire armed forces located just opposite the islands, manpower, equipment, landing vessels, marines, the force of the two naval bases of Aksaz and Izmir and the western asia minor airforces sqns and types. If you bring here data for the time these forces located there before the amassment of troops equipment etc to the south east of Turkey i would be grateful.

A few minutes ago i read an article about DTP leader that he was arrested http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=91747..you may remember our previous debate on the issue including the point of DTP..except this arrest the party probably will face a judiciary closure..the leader in jail, the party closed.

 

[beleg]

The leader has forged documentaries to avoid military service which is obligation to every citizen of Turkish Republic. Since he is not a member of the parliament he has no political immunity thus arrested . I bet same would happen in your country too.

If you have claims , you are free to provide the proof , locations , numbers and whatever else you have got . I don't make the claims here you are doing. So you should provide the information like your fellow Greek friends mentioned in the earlier posts today.

I guess you don't remember that i have shown you the air bases which you claimed to be amassed to west of Turkey which turned out to be equal in distribution east to west.. You can dig back past in this thread and see that map to remember if your memory fails you. The rest of the information is also available in open sources. You are free to search it.

 

[fantasma]

As for the DTP leader i stand just to the coincedence, the momentum of the two cases..the decision to sent DTP on court, a few weeks ago and right afterwards its leader to jail

as for the other i remember we had also a conversation i ll try to find it out where i putted details about forces airbases types and it turned out that Turkey has the right to put wherever she wants her forces and also that Turkey ammases her forces westwards because there is her industrial and economic center..like does Greece putting her forces around Athens ..Turkey prepares her forces following the 2.5 fronts doctrine in order to have sufficient force in order to counter attacks or wars from east and west front and Kurdish rebelion at the same time..but the structure of bases TN or TAF, equipment shows that Turkey expected a bigger threat to her interests in the west than in the east..the example is vivid. Turkey didnt have the appropriate equipment and manpower in the east south east so she had to move forces there from other areas.

As for the data i asked..i ll dig it up on my own and ill put back here the map the bases the sqns etc if you want to have the repetance of the diaulogue we had a few months ago.

As for the case that TN is not under the command of the 4rth Army or the Amphibius Brigade you use a logical and absolute true case..and i admit i was misguided and used faulse data about the command of special forces..but reality is that these naval bases with their fleet stands there Amphibius Brigade stands there just opposite the islands and consitute a continuous threat for their security..just take alook at the turkish air naval scenarios conducting at the aegean area.

 

[beleg]

For the last 2 or 3 years Greece is on the 3rd rank in threat perceiving of Turkey. Iraq, Iran and Greece.

You can find major bases of THK in the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Turkish_Air_Force_bases_and_airfields

As you will see the bases are distributed almost evenly, and they were mostly funded by NATO during the cold war and installed for the threat received from USSR against the straits. Not against the threat from Greece. There are 2 Airforce Tactical Commands , Eastern and Western. Western has 4 main bases, one of them responsible to protect the Capital, while the eastern has 3. You will see that northern parts of Turkey has better air protection than southern as well cause of the said threat analysis.

Similarly , you will not find any bases on eastern most parts of Turkey until Malatya because although unofficially , it was believed that TSK would not be able to hold Russian advance well until Erzurum Erzincan region thus no military airbases were built there.

Besides , the distribution of the bases don't mean much for THK, since we have a lot of forward and secondary bases, tanker aircraft and other logistical equipment to effectively use both tactical air commands in the area of conflict in matter of hours.

The latest attack to N.Iraq was a great example of this, airplanes from 1st and 2nd Tactical Air commands were used, 50 aircraft bombing targets at the same time , joined by UAVs, dedicated ELINT and EW platforms and Special forces units.

 

[fantasma]

The Aegean Army (sometimes called the Fourth Army). Organized in the mid-1970s in response to tensions with Greece in the Aegean Sea, it is responsible for the vast area facing the Aegean coast from the Dardanelles in the north to the southernmost Greek offshore islands. Turkish commanders have described the Aegean Army as being largely composed of training elements from which the major army units are supplied. It consist of the 4th Army HQ, Izmir; 4th Corps, HQ Ankara; two independent armored brigades; three independent mechanized brigades; three independent infantry brigades; 3rd Amphibious Marine Commando Brigade, HQ Foca/Izmir; 4th Commando Brigade, HQ Iskenderun (Aegean/Cyprus); 5th Commando Regiment, HQ Gokceada; 9th Corps (North Cyprus); 28th Infantry Division, HQ Asha; 39th Infantry Division, HQ Morphorus; 14th Independent Armored Brigade, HQ Asha; four aviation battalions (two training); one Presidential Guard regiment; five border defense regiments; 26 border defense battalions.

For the time i havent found any other detail about its manpower and equipment but i ll try to.

Even though the threat from Greece ranks to third place we may bet here about the following...the F-35s in the near future will make entrance to aegean front to challenge HAF. Iranians airforce Syrians and all others combined together do not have the same quantity and quality (mostly second) with today data to face TAF so the only field that will make these airframes the difference is the west front.
the following map shows the airbases of Turkey
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/europe/airfield-tu.htm
and this link the distribution of airforces sqns and types
http://abone.turk.net/uhonet/filo.htm
some more info about turkey's army aviation: http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/turk/turkaf3.htm

 

[fantasma]

In Zaman's today article it is said that the General Staff accuses Greece for applying Megali Idea via militarization of the Aegean Islands..totally rubish.

‘Greece applying “Megali Idea” via militarization of islands’
The General Staff has issued a harsh statement on Greece's militarization of the Aegean islands, suggesting that this act conforms to a policy shaped by the Megali Idea (Great Idea), an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism expressing the goal of establishing a Greek state that encompasses all ethnic Greeks.

Costas Karamanlis
The General Staff's reaction was expressed in a statement posted on its Web site on Monday in the "Pages from History," section, titled "Conquest of the Island of Rhodes (December 20, 1522)."

http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/detaylar.do?load=detay&link=129649&bolum=102
if General Staff has these perceptions that Greeks want to capture Minor Asia or Smirna, what can i say. Are they tottaly insane?

 

[beleg]

Do you expect us to fly F-16s forever? Will you not replace your planes at some point?

We are a partner in the JSF project. Its not only a military asset for us but also an economical one. Currently TUSAS is the secondary source for LRIP-1 phase aircrafts for the middle section of the plane. A lot of Turkish companies have secured various deals for the production of parts for this plane.. Even if we had no problem with Greece we'd buy them. Italy doesn't have problem with anyone and they are buying both EF-2000 and JSF, does Netherlands even need an air force?

I don't get your point here.

As for Megali Idea , your Leftist (!) party is Pan Hellenistic (!!!) Socialist Party... And there are still a lot of people alive in Turkey and Cyprus who suffered in the hands of EOKA... So its natural people feel this way.

I know you feel the same about us, and the reaction of average Turkish is same like the one you give to us..

 

[fantasma]

As for Megali Idea , your Leftist (!) party is Pan Hellenistic (!!!) Socialist Party... And there are still a lot of people alive in Turkey and Cyprus who suffered in the hands of EOKA... So its natural people feel this way

Beleg you have a really good knowledge on many aspects on history politics military but please do not repeat this about PA.SO.K...Panhellenic (not panhellinistic) Sosialist Party (or they like to call it as a movement and not as a party) ..and it is not a leftist party anymore..i say that because you dont know well greek politics..it was leftist 30 yrs ago, now it pretends it is, just to gain voters .that is why it lost two times and goes strictly for a third one in the future.. .the term Panhellenic do not have the meaning like pantouranism or panslavism harbouring a nationalist sense..so open a dictionary and look for its meaning..please. If the average Turk has these perception about a term of a greek party i wonder what happens for other issues..i really didnt believe in my eyes when i saw your comments on this issue..

As for Megali Idea its acceptance among the vast majority of our people and polititicians had died once and for all right after the Minor Asia debacle...if anybody tries to Greece to speak out about Megali Idea the vast majority will treat him like a lunatac..

On the other part of aegean go and tell to the greek citizens of the eastern aegean islands about de-militarisation. Most of these populations are descedants from the survived populations and refugees from the greek-turkish war of 1919-1922 and refugees from previous periods coming from the asiatic coasts..the presense of military there provides to them the sense of security that they arent defenceless in case of crisis -and last three decades we had 3 severe crisis- so it is a significant factor for their economic growth..if military abandons these areas like Turkey demands under todays circumstances a severe flee of population and economic stagnation will follow the very next day..

These are the populations that watches turkish f-16s flying above their heads almost in daily bases, they watch turkish air-naval exercises incircling their islands conducting drills with offensive scenarios..so we ll reach solutions first to the issues that provoke troubles built mutual trust and right after we may talk about it.

On the other hand General Staff is a serious organisation that knows well that the islands are militarised just for defence purposes and it makes me wonder while though they know the truth what target is behind this statement. A political one for sure and maybe it is said to back their efforts in order to put presure to Greece on the issue of the de-militarisation of the islands that Turkey demands. Or to put an other obstacle on Tagip Erdogan and his efforts and to provoke cause maybe on January 2008 Karamanlis visits Turkey..

100-120 F-35s for sure will help Turkey to regain upper hand to her air-balance towards Syria, Iran, Northern Iraq, and Armenia...

 

[beleg]

Some one who is Pan Hellinistic cannot be a leftist anyway. Leftist political view doesn't care about ethnical background of a citizen or work for union of an ethnicity etc. Our CHP which was a leftist party also now behaves more like a right wing party. Same happens all over Europe. Its a normal thing.

Whenever i go to Aegean shore i witness the dogfights of our air forces, and often Greek aircraft fly over Turkish mainland. Its a bad situation. Bad for both sides. As i said i am totally in favor of a solution for the problems between us. And i am for a solution that is found bilaterally. Not by involvement of 3rd parties and esp. not via Hague.

When we get 100 F-35s you will have many sq.s of F-35 or EF-2000s. And as i said even if we did have no problem with you we'd still be buying this plane.

 

[balamir]

For the time i havent found any other detail about its manpower and equipment but i ll try to.

Dear fantasma, strangely enough, the exact article was posted recently at another forum. I don't have time for now, so I will just put the link, but I will be back in a few hours to quote some of the Turkish answers there.

The short answer is that information you posted is absolutely wrong. It puts the units under different commands to under Aegan Army. In reality, 4th army is nothing but a training unit, and in my opinion it exists just as a reminder.

I will edit this post in a few hours, meanwhile you can read more at
www+network54+com/Forum/248068/thread/1197952967/

Replace + with . as I can't post urls yet.
I know the reputation of WAFF, but you can find reliable answer to your post there, at least for this time.

 

[beleg]

That forum is full of lunatics

 

[fantasma]

Balamir my quote was from this link...http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/IJ26Ak04.html
and Merry Christmas to everybody..if you please have any other data on it you may provide it to us..

 

[beleg]

Dear Fatasma,
That article is wrong. The guy has no knowledge about even the most basic military structure and he is totally clueless about TSKs fight against terrorist PKK..

It is absurd that he gave the Amphibious Naval Infantry Brigade (Marine Commandos) under Aegean Army command.. This brigade is under direct order of Southern Sea Area Command while the SAS/SAT commandos (eq. of Seals of US Navy) of the Navy are under direct order of Northern Sea Area Command. The Marine Commandos of TSK has been actively involved in the fight against terrorism, although very far from the shores of sea , this brigade has spilled its blood and lost its members on the mountains of Turkey and Iraq in the defense of our nation.

Similarly Special Forces (Bordo Bereliler) which is a unit with size of an Army Corps is under direct command of General Staff not KKK (Turkish Land Forces Command).


For the structure of Turkish Land Forces command please refer to the KKK website...

http://www.kkk.tsk.mil.tr/GenelKonular/Teskilat/

There you will see that there are 4 Army Commands (Ordu in Turkish), Training And Doctrines Command, Logistical Command and Cyprus Turkish Peace Keeping Force Command.

The following link from Turkish General Staff website gives more insight about the force structure of Turkish Armed Forces, unfortunately in Turkish.

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/1_TSK_HAKKINDA/1_6_Kuvvet_Yapisi/kuvvet_yapisi.htm

I'll see what i can dig and find out about the attached units of Aegean Army...

 

[ertinel]

what!!!

Do you understand,what do you say! listen man Greek army can not race Turkish army why? because 1 Turkey make our weapons 2 Turkey military techgnology is very fast and modern look panther is the best howitzer weapon of the world it is 40 km,Russian naval forces uses only turkish electronic system,Korean airforce uses just Turkish airplane electronic systems in all Korean airplanes and Holland,pakistan,Korea,china,malezia,uruguay,bae and many country uses Turkish weapon 3 Just Turkish pilots has a red flag in nato operation in Alaska and just 6 countrys and Turkey can do night air misson not Greek 4 Turkish specially soldier is the best of the world Turkish soldiers very very strong and vs..............................

Mod edit:

Calm down. Write legibly and space out your posts so people aren't reading one long paragraph.

Then try and add some reason into your posts.

The Turkish air force uses F-16C/D fighter aircraft and modern targetting pods.

The Greek air force uses F-16C/D fighter aircraft and modern targetting pods.

I sincerely doubt that Turkey's ability to perform night strike missions is significantly greater than Greece's.

Please try and be somewhat rational with your posts.

Regards

AD

 

[balamir]

Kamil Reis posted following diagram for Aegean Army (scanned from S&H Magazine)

army HQ in Izmir
- 1 artillery brigade in Izmir
- 1 infantry brigade in Edremit
- 1 infantry training brigade in Manisa
- 1 motorised infantry brigade in Denizli
- 1 infantry training brigade in Antalya

Lets just hope this puts an end to the Greek cries about 100000-200000 soldier Aegean Army. I thought the marines were under 4th army, so that was a surprise.

As a side not, after the 1st Army, 4th Army is the only army that has TASMUS ready (that is, the units have real-time tactical communication for data on top of a mobile and secure communication infrastructure)

 

[beleg]

ertinel you seriously are mislead,

HAF has night time strike capabilities with their Litening III pods and F-16Block52+ aircraft equipped with SAR capable radar (AGP-68v9)....

Panter is just a towed howitzer. It is an advanced towed howitzer but its not the best out there.

I don't even want to comment on the rest. We may feel patriotic about the strength of our army and soldiers, and they have a record to prove their merits in combat but there is no need to brag about it.

 

[beleg]

dear balamir thanks for the post,

It is not a secret that our Greek friends are deliberately being fed false information by their media and armed forces about the threat sourced form Turkey.

The 4th army is weaker than the brigades placed some Aegean islands that have more than one Armored and Mechanized Infantry brigades (while they should only have gendarme forces according to international treaties)


Actually we don't even have marines. Our Amphibious Brigade is a Naval unit and is based in Izmir. Their official name is Türk Amfibi Deniz Piyade Tugayı , which is translated as Turkish Amphibious Naval Infantry Brigade.

The Brigade has served in 74 Cyprus Peace Operation , Internal Security operations in the province of Sirnak and also in Albania. They are one of the elite units of Turkish Armed forces and their training is even higher and tougher than the Turkish Commando brigades.

 

[fantasma]

Relax ertinel, relax..enjoy diaulogue and data provided here..