Some details for the cost of the JSF..According to details given to publishity from the General Manager of the Pentagon for the JSF Steven Enewold the cost for the aircraft will arise about 150 mn $ until the end of the decade but after 2014-15 will be reduced to about 50-60 mn $..around 2011 137 mn $ and 2013 116 mn $, for the time being the cost is 82mn $..there is a study from CRS a department of Congress (02-06-2006) that there is a possibility for the US airforce to cut by 1/3 the total number from the 1763 JSF originally required..if that comes true it will have consequences of the final cost of the airframes targetted for exports
Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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Maybe that explains the delay of expected F-16 procurement of Turkey. Its always wise to wait and see what your neighbor buys first 
Scalp is a good example of Turkish stand in Greece's armament options. SCALP has an extreme range which in the first place should not be In Greeces inventory. However it is, by the help of friendly French. Turkey had to introduce Popeye missiles after that and now will receive SLAM-ER. Had Greece not invested in Scalp, USA would never release SLAM-ER for Turkey.
I hope Greece goes for Rafale btw
German frigates? Which model?
Scalp is a good example of Turkish stand in Greece's armament options. SCALP has an extreme range which in the first place should not be In Greeces inventory. However it is, by the help of friendly French. Turkey had to introduce Popeye missiles after that and now will receive SLAM-ER. Had Greece not invested in Scalp, USA would never release SLAM-ER for Turkey.
I hope Greece goes for Rafale btw
German frigates? Which model?
Dear beleg,beleg said:Maybe that explains the delay of expected F-16 procurement of Turkey. Its always wise to wait and see what your neighbor buys first
Scalp is a good example of Turkish stand in Greece's armament options. SCALP has an extreme range which in the first place should not be In Greeces inventory. However it is, by the help of friendly French. Turkey had to introduce Popeye missiles after that and now will receive SLAM-ER. Had Greece not invested in Scalp, USA would never release SLAM-ER for Turkey.
I hope Greece goes for Rafale btw
German frigates? Which model?
to my view Turkey does well to be a partnership member investing in JSF..i guess that the target of TuAF will be to start delieveries when the cost is estimated to be in the rational 50-60 mn $ per piece..this means around 2014-15..both countries beleg are "trapped" in the term of seeking weaponry that will give the one side a technological and qualitative advantage against the other..Turkey has due to its size geography neighbours history a large army..Turkish Airforce no doubt is the largest in the area in numbers and also in quality comparing to your "sweet angels" neighbourhood in the east..The only Airforce that can match the TuAF in numbers and quality is the Greek Airforce..so to me the JSF disturbs the balance in quality and quantity on Turkish side to the so caled "Aegean front". Just check the air bases in Central and Western Anatolia..there are the "best" and most war wings of F16s looking westwards..in the near future the JSF will replace those f16s from Western and Central Anatolia and the Tuaf will pull most of these f16s eastwards..the JSF issue has to do mostly with the Aegean front..a missile like SCALP may disturb balance slightly but introducing a Stealthy aircract the disturbance is a tremendous one..you can buy a missile in a few months or in a year time but to buy an aircraft and to reach it in a full operational scale needs at least a 5 years time..
not sure for the model of German frigate..i think its the F 125..(i would prefer the FREMMS but the HDW Shipyards own one of the largest Greek shipyard constructing vessels for Greek Navy and dont know the role that this factor may play)
Cheers
Hmm.. I am not really sure how F125 will fit into Hellenic Navy. Its a specialised ship, dedicated only to ASuW & Land Attack and special operations with its 155 mm gun and Naval MLRS..
OTOH FREMM (even the land attack version) is more verstaile and has better capabilities thanks to Scalp-Navale & Aster.
I am not sure if i understand the logic.. Lets wait and see before more detail about the deal is revealed.
I got some questions if u got time;
Is there more plan to retire more Elli's after this frigate acqusition? Is there new SSK acqusition plan? The common belief was that Greece wanted to increase the number of her SSK fleet from 7+1 to 11+1 but that seems not to be the case after offer to sell her non modernised Type 209s to Egypt.
OTOH FREMM (even the land attack version) is more verstaile and has better capabilities thanks to Scalp-Navale & Aster.
I am not sure if i understand the logic.. Lets wait and see before more detail about the deal is revealed.
I got some questions if u got time;
Is there more plan to retire more Elli's after this frigate acqusition? Is there new SSK acqusition plan? The common belief was that Greece wanted to increase the number of her SSK fleet from 7+1 to 11+1 but that seems not to be the case after offer to sell her non modernised Type 209s to Egypt.
Dear beleg your questions are also mine concerning the future of the greek fleet frigates and subs..these 6 Elli Class frigates currently being modernised by 2020 will age 40 years..near retiremnent..the naval programme (in theory yet) speaks for 6 brand new frigates until 2017..Meko 200 are in the plan to have a 200mn Euro modernisation..Making an hypothesis the 2020 horizon will find the Navy with 4 Meko 200, 6 New Frigates..the retirement of the whole fleet of Elli's Class will press urgently or for the continuation of constructing new vessels or to find a reliable second hand ship to fill in the gap..to my view because of Greece's environment as a peninsula in a very strategic area (including the Turkish threat) must have a frigate fleet at least a figure close to 20..the same for the subs fleet a number close to 12 is the desirable one..i'm not favourable in decisions like the offer to sell the S/209 even not modernised..i would be favourable in that case only if projects were under way for extra AIP subs,and as far as i'm aware except the building of the U214 and modernisation 3/4 of the 209/1200 to AIP level nothing else exists..beleg said:
The logic if any can say its logic is that the airforce favours Rafale (dont think personally that it is a bad aircraft at all) cause to the good fame and familirity of the Mirage F1 and Mirage 2000..the same for the F 125 cause of the Meko 200 experience..if you ask me i wouldnt be favourable of both of his items..
Ending let's say that Greece approves the EFA the figure will be around 40..and even this figure is to few to calculate maintenace, pilot training etc..
Hmm, interesting , with the current acqusition plans by 2020s Turkey will have
4 modernised 209s (no AIP) Ay
4 209 1200s (no AIP) Preveze
4 209 1400s (no AIP) Gür
2+(2) AIP Subs (probably Type 214s)
totalling 14 + (2) subs. The unmodernised 2 Ay class will wait in service until the first AIP subs arrive.
Surface fleet however will need replacement by 2020 like the Hellenic Navy, The OHPs (8) will have to be replaced and Meko200s modernised. Here the modernisation of Aussie ANZACs are a good example for both nations imo. Hopefully by this time Turkey will have finished building several Milgem corvettes (which are supposed to replace French Avisos in service from 2015) and thus may start a frigate program or join one by 2015s.
Meanwhile the AAW frigate need is still out there, especially when you consider the fact that we want to buy new LPD & LSTs and other Fast amphibious Landing Crafts. However because of the advancement rate of technology ships get outdated very fast. What was offered to Turkey as AAW frigate in 2000s would be considered obsolete now, thus i am not in favor of investing multi billion dollars into naval platforms unless SM-2 and SPY radar is released.
4 modernised 209s (no AIP) Ay
4 209 1200s (no AIP) Preveze
4 209 1400s (no AIP) Gür
2+(2) AIP Subs (probably Type 214s)
totalling 14 + (2) subs. The unmodernised 2 Ay class will wait in service until the first AIP subs arrive.
Surface fleet however will need replacement by 2020 like the Hellenic Navy, The OHPs (8) will have to be replaced and Meko200s modernised. Here the modernisation of Aussie ANZACs are a good example for both nations imo. Hopefully by this time Turkey will have finished building several Milgem corvettes (which are supposed to replace French Avisos in service from 2015) and thus may start a frigate program or join one by 2015s.
Meanwhile the AAW frigate need is still out there, especially when you consider the fact that we want to buy new LPD & LSTs and other Fast amphibious Landing Crafts. However because of the advancement rate of technology ships get outdated very fast. What was offered to Turkey as AAW frigate in 2000s would be considered obsolete now, thus i am not in favor of investing multi billion dollars into naval platforms unless SM-2 and SPY radar is released.
Interesting data...just a few comparisons between turkish fleet and greek fleet..just check the ratio in a very crucial sector that of the turkish subs and turkish ASW Helos to the greek fleet frigates, subs and ASW Helos and vice versa. 14 (+2) turkish subs and 28 SH-70B comparing to a fleet numbering about 10 main battle ships about 2020(and maybe a figure of 4-6 more second hand unknown type - figure just a case) and about 8 subs and 15 ASW Helos..check the ratio of greek frigates to turkish subs and the opposite and the turkish ASW Helos to greek subs and the opposite..the acquisition of fast amphibius landing crafts will increase assault capabilities of Turkish Navy...be also a real asset to aeronautical drills like "Cevik Pense" taking place to Aegean every year, a flexible air-naval tight blocade and cut off of the eastern greek aegean islands from continental Greece..and introduces also the element of surprise..beleg said:
In fact Turkis Navy & Coast Guard is supposed to increase in size and quality in the next decades. This will ensure the security of sea lanes & Iskenderun Bay which will be used to ship all the oil of Central Asia via BTC & SC pipelines. Also the illegal human trafic & smuggling should receive a heavy blow by the introduction of new OPVs of Coast Guard.
Turkey has selected the Italian Commandante class of the OPV requirement of the Coast Guard. CG will receive 4 ships which will drastically increase the SAR , anti-smuggling capabilities.
Turkey has selected the Italian Commandante class of the OPV requirement of the Coast Guard. CG will receive 4 ships which will drastically increase the SAR , anti-smuggling capabilities.
contedicavour
New Member
Wow this (4 Comandante to Turkey's Coast Guard) is good news, I somehow missed it ! When was this confirmed please ?beleg said:In fact Turkis Navy & Coast Guard is supposed to increase in size and quality in the next decades. This will ensure the security of sea lanes & Iskenderun Bay which will be used to ship all the oil of Central Asia via BTC & SC pipelines. Also the illegal human trafic & smuggling should receive a heavy blow by the introduction of new OPVs of Coast Guard.
Turkey has selected the Italian Commandante class of the OPV requirement of the Coast Guard. CG will receive 4 ships which will drastically increase the SAR , anti-smuggling capabilities.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
What is the requirement Turkey has for the new DDGs / AAW FFGs ? Would a FREMM with EMPAR aegis-type radar and Aster-30 missiles (120km range) be fine ? Because it would cost you 380 million euro per ship instead of the 700 for a Horizon DDG and 800+ for a Burke Flight II DDG with SM-2 III.beleg said:
cheers
Turkish shipbuilding company RMK Marine (also built Albay Hakki Burak and Ihsan Tolunay logistics ships) made a consortium with Fincantieri and proposed Comandante class SAR ships. Defense Industry Executive Commitee on 30 June decided to give the contract to RMK Marine for 4 ships.
I dont think that Turkey is interested in anything less than SM2 and SPY Aegis Suite. The requirement was for AAW 4 frigates 2 + 2 if i remember correctly but there is no clear date when the project will be restarted. There might be a delay in this , perhaps a decade, if Greece doesnt get similar ships.
The selection of Commandante was announced after the 30 June Meeting of SSIK.
Other important project confirmed in the meeting was ;
Contracted:
*Denel Rooivalk & Agusta Mangusta shortlisted for ATAK Helicopter Project
*Modernisation of Type 209s with HDW
*Tactical UAV Development jointly with Pakistan (TAI)
*SeaHawk B-IIB Project will go on with SSMs own Funds not US-EximBank
Staring Tenders:
* Submarine Salvage Ship
* Long Range Anti Ballistical Missile
* Vertically launched short/Medium Range SAM
* 10 Kargo Helos
* Medium Range Anti Armor Missile (1500 missiles)
* LPD (?)
* LCS (?)
* Modernisation of T-38s in similar fashion to F-5 modernisation
It seems that the selection of the ATAK helicopter shortlist took most of the time of the meeting. A lot of decisions , that were expected ,were not made.
The selection of Commandante was announced after the 30 June Meeting of SSIK.
Other important project confirmed in the meeting was ;
Contracted:
*Denel Rooivalk & Agusta Mangusta shortlisted for ATAK Helicopter Project
*Modernisation of Type 209s with HDW
*Tactical UAV Development jointly with Pakistan (TAI)
*SeaHawk B-IIB Project will go on with SSMs own Funds not US-EximBank
Staring Tenders:
* Submarine Salvage Ship
* Long Range Anti Ballistical Missile
* Vertically launched short/Medium Range SAM
* 10 Kargo Helos
* Medium Range Anti Armor Missile (1500 missiles)
* LPD (?)
* LCS (?)
* Modernisation of T-38s in similar fashion to F-5 modernisation
It seems that the selection of the ATAK helicopter shortlist took most of the time of the meeting. A lot of decisions , that were expected ,were not made.
contedicavour
New Member
Thanks for the OPV Comandanti confirmation !beleg said:
I find it very interesting that the Turkish government has given priority to tenders for updating of SSK + LPD + LCS instead of starting programmes for the AAW FFGs. Priority seems thus to remain the Eastern Mediterrenean / Black Sea (areas well under cover of the Turkish Air Force) and for ASW/ASUW missions.
I look forward to more collaboration between Italian and Turkish defence industries, starting with the Mangusta A129 and the Comandanti OPVs. Hopefully when the AAW FFG brief will come out, it won't be too skewed towards AEGIS/SM-2. Honestly why bother praying for the US Congress to authorize this under FMS rules, while you could become a partner in the FREMM/Horizon programmes ? Besides, the SAMP programme from which the Aster missiles come exists as Army SAM as well (it will shortly enter service with the French and Italian Armies) => this would be fine for your medium range SAM tender.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Good question. This forum's Spanish readers must have the exact cost. I remember reading approx 500 million euro per ship, while the smaller Norwegian Nansen (with ESSM and - for the moment - no SM-2) were around 350. Unfortunately the information is 5 years old and I don't find anything newer.Big-E said:
cheers
Dear contedicavour,
Yes for now it seems that Turkish Navy will not invest in an AAW ship in short term. I think the Navy wants to wait a few years more to see the outcome of the MiLGEM project to decide to go on with a national multipurpose frigate or join a program. OHPs will still have a decade or more left in them after the GENESIS modernisation completes so we should not expect Turkey to start a new frigate program or join one before 2010+.
No offence but i want the South Africans to win ATAK.. Rooivalk is a better platform that suits the high altitude of the country and heavy mission requirements of TSK imho.
However i would like to see A-129 as the winner of Turna , light recon and utility helicopter tender.
Yes for now it seems that Turkish Navy will not invest in an AAW ship in short term. I think the Navy wants to wait a few years more to see the outcome of the MiLGEM project to decide to go on with a national multipurpose frigate or join a program. OHPs will still have a decade or more left in them after the GENESIS modernisation completes so we should not expect Turkey to start a new frigate program or join one before 2010+.
No offence but i want the South Africans to win ATAK.. Rooivalk is a better platform that suits the high altitude of the country and heavy mission requirements of TSK imho.
However i would like to see A-129 as the winner of Turna , light recon and utility helicopter tender.
contedicavour
New Member
Hello Beleg,beleg said:
could you share some more details of the Milgem corvette programme and of the OHP update (is it like the Australian integration of VLS for ESSM ?) ?
On the attack helos, Rooivalk may be larger and sturdier birds, but there are only a dozen or so existing, so they are largely untested versus the 60 Mangustas which have operated for 10+ years in all sorts of NATO exercises and have inspired many of the characteristics of more recent attack helos such as the Tigers. Besides, Alenia Finmeccanica is 2 hours' flight time away from Istanbul, just in case... and ready to invest in your country's defence industry. That's why I think the Mangusta is a safer bet for your country
By the way, for light recon/utility our proposals are A109 power, AB-139, and NH-90TTH (ranked from the lightest to the heaviest).
cheers
Should be AB-139.. Talking too much about Mangusta confused me it seems.. hehe
OHPs are receiving mostly Electronics modernisation. Its not as extensive as the Australian program. Genesis project aims to locally design and develop a Ship Battle control system. The similar system will be used in all future combat ships of Turkish navy including the Milgem. The said modernisation will also increase the effectiveness of the OHPs , bringign them to same level electronicswise. There will be no new weapons integration.
MiLGEM will be a LO ship in terms of radar and ir and aqustic signatures. Its main duty will be AsuW and ASW . The 2000 t ship will be able to remain at sea for 10 days unsupplied and 21 days with support.
The most critical thing about MiLGEM is , including the sonar, most of its subsystems will be Turkish design.Below is an image of MiLGEM prototypes model.
*img courtesy of orko_8
OHPs are receiving mostly Electronics modernisation. Its not as extensive as the Australian program. Genesis project aims to locally design and develop a Ship Battle control system. The similar system will be used in all future combat ships of Turkish navy including the Milgem. The said modernisation will also increase the effectiveness of the OHPs , bringign them to same level electronicswise. There will be no new weapons integration.
MiLGEM will be a LO ship in terms of radar and ir and aqustic signatures. Its main duty will be AsuW and ASW . The 2000 t ship will be able to remain at sea for 10 days unsupplied and 21 days with support.
The most critical thing about MiLGEM is , including the sonar, most of its subsystems will be Turkish design.Below is an image of MiLGEM prototypes model.
*img courtesy of orko_8
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contedicavour
New Member
Don't worry I'm not in the defence industry at all (unless you can turn detergents and shampoos into weaponryfantasma said:
) though I am happy when I see that one country's tenders fit well with the best products of my country's defence industry. There's a lot of jobs at stake and I come from a region of Italy where the defence industry is a big employer.To go back to the topic, I think that with current budgetary constraints, neither Greece nor Turkey can afford AAW DDGs, though the need to improve AAW defence is there. That's why I think FREMMs are providing the capability for the lowest cost. Unless somebody finds the exact cost of a Spanish F-100 as being lower.
cheers
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