Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[eliaslar]

Even though Greek islands are not international airspace to fly over I don't think it's the right place here to argue about this, as it is more than possible that a spark would become a war here and the thread to be closed and on the other hand we will find no solution here.

Maybe we should come back in the arms race and not in the dogfights matters

 

[fantasma]

@dear beleg, during the Imia crisis we had two unstable political countries. Do not forget that for over a month Greece was under a Prime Minister who was hospitalised and there was a quarrel about who was going to take the leadership of the country. So it wasnt only Turkey the weak spot.
Also for the last incident as it was said if we believe that what was said from the Greek side is accurate it was talking for turkish aircrafts flying 100 meters over the soil of two greek islands before being intercepted in the wider area of Samos. According to Turkish Gen. Staff turkish aircrafts were intercepted over international airspace not a word for the first part of the incident. For the second one there is a match. My point is that if the turkish aircrafts flew over the soil in such a low altitude during a simple drill it means that these who give the flight plans to their pilots do not do well their job -or did it delibarately-or the pilots are so independent and lack discipline if they choose without any pressure to fly over the said greek soil. Sorry for off topic

Now to get back on topic Minister Meimarakis is visiting his counterpart of France for talks and maybe we are likely close to an agreement for a greek procurement considering mostly the new Frigates issue. Also next month will be visiting Greece the French President Sarkozy -ah Karla:devil fam fatale, i dont know if she comes too- who will also have talks and maybe during his visit an agreement will be signed and Meimarakis and his counerpart of France maybe these days are preparing the ground finishing the details. Time will tell

 

[beleg]

After a dogfight/interception starts the pilot will not care about if he penetrated an air space or flew over someones territory. He will just try to maintain advantage to save his and his planes life! We don't know the patterns they flew over the islands and we also don't know if the passing happened before or after the interception, so the suggestions you make are just some hypothesis

 

[fantasma]

Dear Beleg my suggestions and my some hypothesis is based on facts given to public. I dont know if they are 100% accurate but this is something that came from formal sources and any official has denied it or rejected it till today. The data given from HAF i pressume and was published to one of the biggest and credible defence sites in Greece gives also the accurate timetable of the incident. By 10:26 and 10:27 the formations flew over Agathonisi and Fournoi and their interception happened few minutes later at 10:31 according to the article that was published last Friday.

Στις 10:22 σήμερα το πρωί σχηματισμός από 4 F-16C Fighting Falcon και 4 F-4E Terminator 2020 της τουρκικής Αεροπορίας διέσχισε το FIR Αθηνών νότια της Σάμου.

Στις 10:26 τα τα Phantom στο εξετέλεσαν υπερπτήση πάνω από το Αγαθονήσι σε ύψος 400 ποδών.

Ένα λεπτό αργότερα, στις 10:27 τα ίδια αεροσκάφη εξετέλεσαν υπερπτήση πάνω από τους Φούρνους επίσης σε ύψος 400 ποδών.

Την ίδια χρονική στιγμή τα δυο από τα 4 F-16 αναχαιτίστηκαν από ελληνικά μαχητικά φυλακής F-16C Block 52 που απογειώθηκαν από την αεροπορική βάση Καστελίου Κρήτης.

Τα τουρκικά αεροσκάφη αρνήθηκαν να συμμορφωθούν στις υποδείξεις των ελληνικών και ακολούθησε εμπλοκή.

Στις 10:31 τα υπόλοιπα 2 τουρκικά F-16C και τα 4 F-4E αναχαιτίστηκαν από ελληνικά αεροσκάφη φυλακής Mirage 2000EG.

Στις 10:40 ο τουρκικός σχηματισμός (2 τετράδες F-16C και F-4E) αποχώρησε από το FIR Αθηνών

http://www.defencenet.gr/defence/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4205&Itemid=83

 

[beleg]

Like you said we never know

Btw in yesterdays defense meeting Turkey has selected Kornet-E as short range anti-tank missile. Initial numbers will be 80 launchers and 800 missiles. Interesting

 

[eliaslar]

Good choice the Kornet-E.

That's very interesting beleg. I thought Turkey was never going to buy Russian weapons, except the ones used from Jandarma.

Also maybe this proves that Kornet-E is a very capable weapon, used also by the Greek army since 2003 i think.

 

[fantasma]

Tottaly agree with eliaslar comments.
Here is KORNET-E under greek service
[img=http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/9292/kornet1np6.th.jpg]

 

[eliaslar]

@beleg
Are there any details about the Turkish Kornet-E's? Any details about their carriers and the type of ammunition they will use?

 

[jedigman]

Yesterday there was a Defense committee Meeting to discuss many of the projects going on or about to start.

This what they discussed

1- EO and IR short and middile range sensor, synthetic aperture radar (sar), sensors project goes to ASELSAN

2- Land force main training plane project goes to cessna..

3- SAT boat project goes to Yonca Onuk shipyard

4- MiLGEM second ship production project goes to naval shipyard in tuzla..

5- Medium range anti-tank missile project goes to Rosoboron export Kornet-E

6- Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun project goes to Aselsan

7- 35 mm oerlikon fire control system modernization project goes to Aselsan

8- Short range air defence missile system

a) otonom short range air defence missile system will purchase a foreign firm

b) short range air defence missile project design and development with Aselsan and Roketsan

9- Modern infantry rifle mehmetçik-1 will start Production

10- F-16 block40/50 modernisation project serial production goes to TAI

11- Ay class submarine modernisation project goes to aselsan-havelsan

12- light weight howitzer project will start

13- F-16 simulator probably havelsan

14- Air defence radar network project

15- NBC mobile ground laboratory

In the long range air defence missile tender it's said that the first choice of Turkey is S-400.

But because Turkey wants co-production and tech transfer the Russians are not keen on giving the S-400 under these terms.

They don't want to share the technology of such an important system with a NATO country.

Prime minister Erdogan might send a letter to Putin about this subject.

The attached picture is the Self-Propelled Anti-Aircraft Gun Concept design by Aselsan, it will be based on the Leopard 1A.

 

[beleg]

Not too many details out yet.

Another news is that Turkey has ordered 6 MK41 VLSs from USA. 2 of the launchers will be used in Meko TrackIIa frigates and replace the octople launchers , the Track IIbs VLS launches will also be modernized to accommodate the ESSM. The remaining 4 launchers will be installed in ex OHP class frigates which will be modernized in a similar program with Australian OHPs and will be capable of firing ESSM as well.

 

[eliaslar]

According to Turkey's long range air defence system i see that Turkey is closer to a US or Israel solution rather than a Russian one.

Some interesting facts from Greece now.

As fantasma has correctly informed us after the NATO summit in Bucharest some days ago and after especially the France and Italian support in Greece's position in certain matters it is known that next month Mr Sarkozi will come to Greece and also before the end of the month Greek Prime Minister Karamanlis will visit Moscow, one more time during the recent years.

He will be the first to see Mr Putin in the end of his carreer and one of the first to see Mr Medvedev in the start of his carreer, strengthening the two countries relations, after Russia's recent support, as claimed by the Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Mr Titov in his visit in Greece these days, in Greek matters.

At this point i would like to remind the Greek interest about the S-400, before a couple of months some Greek media were sure that Greece will buy S-400 in the coming months and the cooperation in energy matters with the Russian side.

Maybe we are in the beggining of a new era in European-Russian relations?

 

[Salty Dog]

At this point i would like to remind the Greek interest about the S-400, before a couple of months some Greek media were sure that Greece will buy S-400 in the coming months and the cooperation in energy matters with the Russian side.

Maybe we are in the beggining of a new era in European-Russian relations?

No wonder, . . . 80% of Greece's natural gas imports came from Russia as of 2006 with annual consumption rising.

Whilst Greece is trying to reduce this dependence on Russian gas by pipelines from the Caspian Sea (via Turkey), those projects are a few years away from completion.

 

[fantasma]

Also Greece has already deal with Algeria since med 80s importing significant quantities of liquefied natural gas with LNG ships -off topic-

 

[eliaslar]

@salty dog
Greece is not trying to reduce it's dependence on Russian gas. One of the most significant parts, not to say the majority, of Europe's energy comes from Russia and this will increase in the coming years.

On the other hand Greece is trying to become an energy crossroad, satisfying also it's energy needs, from East to Europe, as most Balkan countries try to become.

There are more than one pipelines to pass through Greece, the most important of them are

1. Southstream
2. TGI (Turkey-Greece-Italy)
3. Burgas - Alexandroupoli

Before we go way off topic here you could also see my post #15 in the Balance of Power thread
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7459

Also the only pipeline which will pass from both Turkey and Greece will be the TGI transfering Azeri gas, the rest pipelines transfer Russian oil and gas so i don't see any reduction in the dependency on Russia.

 

[Atilla [TR]]

According to Turkey's long range air defence system i see that Turkey is closer to a US or Israel solution rather than a Russian one.

I do not see Turkey buying any Russian defense products, they are trying to limit the Israeli and American imports trying to build everything them selves. Turkey will probably get Israeli system lately they are buying so much from them.

 

[eliaslar]

There was an interesting article in www.defencenet.gr yesterday.

According to the article the first AIM-9X A2A missiles are delivered to TAF.
It would be very interesting from our friends from Turkey to confirm the accuracy of these news.

On the other hand HAF already uses the training version of Iris-T. The interesting part about this is that HAF F-16 Block 52+ ADV aren't certified for AIM-9X because the US rejected that this version of F-16, bought by Greece, would be certified for both weapons.

According to the article US did this because they didn't probably wanted the two missiles to be used by the same Air Force and thus making the comparison of the two missiles in every aspect of them very easy.

At this point i would like to add that Greece is a member of the Iris-T "consortium" led by Germany, with a 13% share in it's development phase with Intracom Defence Electronics. Greece has already expressed needs for at least 350 missiles.

 

[orko_8]

There was an interesting article in www.defencenet.gr yesterday.

According to the article the first AIM-9X A2A missiles are delivered to TAF.
It would be very interesting from our friends from Turkey to confirm the accuracy of these news.

On the other hand HAF already uses the training version of Iris-T. The interesting part about this is that HAF F-16 Block 52+ ADV aren't certified for AIM-9X because the US rejected that this version of F-16, bought by Greece, would be certified for both weapons.

According to the article US did this because they didn't probably wanted the two missiles to be used by the same Air Force and thus making the comparison of the two missiles in every aspect of them very easy.

At this point i would like to add that Greece is a member of the Iris-T "consortium" led by Germany, with a 13% share in it's development phase with Intracom Defence Electronics. Greece has already expressed needs for at least 350 missiles.

Indeed, AIM-9X, JDAM and JSOW integration works have been in progress in Eskisehir 1st Maintenance Center. NEcessary laboratories and facilities were established for the work.

 

[fantasma]

According to one of the biggest defence magazines in Greece "Stratigiki" it was written that there was a reconsideration of the plans and budget concerning HAF. The budget it was estimated up to 10 billion euros (16 billion dollars under todays currencies). There are plans to purchace 40 next generation aircrafts (5 billion euros), purchase 30 more aircrafts (1.5 billion euros)-(probably F-16 blk 52 ADV+) in order to replace the rest A-7s Corsair, 36 new training aircraft (900 million euros), and 50-60 aircrafts will be upgraded 40 F-16s blk 50, 10-20 Mirage 2000..i do not know how credible and how close to the HAFs final decisions are these details, but the only that i can say with more certainty is that the refference to the total budget of 10 billion euros targetted for HAFs armaments approaches truth. This amount is spread throughout the press.
Είναι πολλά τα λεφτά Άρη!!

 

[BLACK SHIP]

According to one of the biggest defence magazines in Greece "Stratigiki" it was written that there was a reconsideration of the plans and budget concerning HAF. The budget it was estimated up to 10 billion euros (16 billion dollars under todays currencies). There are plans to purchace 40 next generation aircrafts (5 billion euros), purchase 30 more aircrafts (1.5 billion euros)-(probably F-16 blk 52 ADV+) in order to replace the rest A-7s Corsair, 36 new training aircraft (900 million euros), and 50-60 aircrafts will be upgraded 40 F-16s blk 50, 10-20 Mirage 2000..i do not know how credible and how close to the HAFs final decisions are these details, but the only that i can say with more certainty is that the refference to the total budget of 10 billion euros targetted for HAFs armaments approaches truth. This amount is spread throughout the press.
Είναι πολλά τα λεφτά Άρη!!

One interesting point is that the French are claiming that the upgrading cost for the 21 Mirages is equal to 10 new Rafale .The number of the new aircraft is still under consideration by the AF but the quoted amount of money is still impressive .It seems that the dry spell on equipment procurement of the last
years is going to end.

 

[eliaslar]

The new fighter program came into it's final phase today. The Joint Chiefs of General Staff Council completed it's process and the winner will be decided from the Governmental Council of Foreign Affairs and Defence.

The latest news inform us that the decision will be about 60 new fighters (or 40+20 as option). But the most interesting is the prospect for 80 new fighters in 2015, as a countermeasure to the F-35's.