... however all military goods exports from Germany are always subject to individual review.
Arms race: Greece & Turkey
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This order is included in the planned defensive program of 2006-2010 and it has a funding of 964,000,000 euros.
About the M109's, indeed there was the interest from Greek side to buy 151 M109A3GEA1, but this was cancelled because of the US denial to grant the end user certificate.
Also as i have said in another reply above, there is talking going on about the Dutch and German systems, maybe all these would be joined in a program to reduce cost and make deliveries faster.
I hope that the winner of this order would be PzH2000GR, although it's price is very high.
About the M109's, indeed there was the interest from Greek side to buy 151 M109A3GEA1, but this was cancelled because of the US denial to grant the end user certificate.
Also as i have said in another reply above, there is talking going on about the Dutch and German systems, maybe all these would be joined in a program to reduce cost and make deliveries faster.
I hope that the winner of this order would be PzH2000GR, although it's price is very high.
BLACK SHIP
New Member
As far as new systems the PzH2000GR is the prime candidate.
The problem regarding the M109A3GEA1 is now solved and there is also an offer
for M109A5 systems from US .
The problem regarding the M109A3GEA1 is now solved and there is also an offer
for M109A5 systems from US .
Today there was an article in a Greek defence magazine, which may prove BLACK SHIP's information.
According to the article, the Greek Army and the Germany are very near to an agreement about the M109A3GEA2's. The agreement is about 200 systems from German reserves, which are probably in excellent condition, as they were until very recently in service with German army.
The price of this agreement is not yet known but it seems that they will be sold in a very low, "symbolic" as it is written in the article.
This version of M109 has more improvements than the 50 M109A3GEA1 already in service with the Greek army and it will bring the total number of M109's in Greek service in a number of 400 systems, something which will help the withdrawal of older systems that serve today.
I am sure that the total price of this agreement will never exceed the amount of 964,000,000 Euros, which is currently the funding of the new artillery program. The previous Greek interest about 151 M109A3GEA1's, would have a total cost of about 15,000,000 Euros. So even if this program exceeds 50,000,000 Euros, then the rest 900,000,000 Euros will probably be used in the other planned programs.
According to the article, the Greek Army and the Germany are very near to an agreement about the M109A3GEA2's. The agreement is about 200 systems from German reserves, which are probably in excellent condition, as they were until very recently in service with German army.
The price of this agreement is not yet known but it seems that they will be sold in a very low, "symbolic" as it is written in the article.
This version of M109 has more improvements than the 50 M109A3GEA1 already in service with the Greek army and it will bring the total number of M109's in Greek service in a number of 400 systems, something which will help the withdrawal of older systems that serve today.
I am sure that the total price of this agreement will never exceed the amount of 964,000,000 Euros, which is currently the funding of the new artillery program. The previous Greek interest about 151 M109A3GEA1's, would have a total cost of about 15,000,000 Euros. So even if this program exceeds 50,000,000 Euros, then the rest 900,000,000 Euros will probably be used in the other planned programs.
BLACK SHIP
New Member
The M109A3GEA2 proposal was made by Germany after the offer of US M109A5 become official.However the German systems are in excellent state being in service or in storage since rebuilding while the US are in need of refurbishment and sold on as is and where there are basis .
I don't think the impact on the funding of the new artillery program will be significant .Usually used systems are budgeted separately from the main program.
I don't think the impact on the funding of the new artillery program will be significant .Usually used systems are budgeted separately from the main program.
So it seems SPH requirement of Greek Army is more than urgent and budget is just not enough for additional PzH-2000's?
By looking at Greece's procurement of SPH systems (starting with PzH-2000i than transferring surplus M-109's from the very producer of PzH itself), I cannot reach to any other conclusion.
By looking at Greece's procurement of SPH systems (starting with PzH-2000i than transferring surplus M-109's from the very producer of PzH itself), I cannot reach to any other conclusion.
BLACK SHIP
New Member
The procurement of those surplus SPs will replace older ones in service so there will be no need for rebuilding them .
The requirement for the PZH2000 stands to more than 100 in service units.
@orko_8
Look in my post #804
There was a Greek interest on used M109's, but it was cancelled.
Also as i have previously posted again, i said that the numbers of PzH2000GR are small and that in the future its numbers will rise. That doesn't mean that Greece won't buy any other systems, whenever there is a chance to do it and the German reserves are such a good chance, with 15,000,000 Euros one can buy 200 systems.
Also as i have posted again in my post #784
There is also the interest about the German and the Dutch PzH2000, which is not cancelled of course.
So to conclude
1. Greece is near an agreement with Germany, on buying 200 M109A3GEA2, a very good chance to upgrade the artillery withdrawing all old equipment.
2. There is an interest, as i can read in different articles, with good chances to come true, on 48 German and Dutch PzH2000
3. There is still the need for more PzH2000 on Greek side in the future, i don't think one can compare the capabilities of PzH2000 and M109, as PzH2000 is a far more capable system.
4. Economics
The current funding for the new/used (with these news) systems is for 964,000,000 Euros.
The M109's cost about 15,000,000 Euros.
So we have 950,000,000 Euros left. With those money maybe the 48 Dutch and German systems will be bought (each Dutch system costs maximum 4,000,000 Euros for Greece). So the 48 systems will cost about 200,000,000 Euros.
After all those, we have both saved about 750,000,000 Euros, thus making the buing of new PzH2000GR's something more than possible, the number 100 that BLACK SHIP refered to is indeed very close to todays needs, and also have money left to buy ammunition and to allocate to other programs (new fighter, new frigate etc)
Look in my post #804
There was a Greek interest on used M109's, but it was cancelled.
Also as i have previously posted again, i said that the numbers of PzH2000GR are small and that in the future its numbers will rise. That doesn't mean that Greece won't buy any other systems, whenever there is a chance to do it and the German reserves are such a good chance, with 15,000,000 Euros one can buy 200 systems.
Also as i have posted again in my post #784
There is also the interest about the German and the Dutch PzH2000, which is not cancelled of course.
So to conclude
1. Greece is near an agreement with Germany, on buying 200 M109A3GEA2, a very good chance to upgrade the artillery withdrawing all old equipment.
2. There is an interest, as i can read in different articles, with good chances to come true, on 48 German and Dutch PzH2000
3. There is still the need for more PzH2000 on Greek side in the future, i don't think one can compare the capabilities of PzH2000 and M109, as PzH2000 is a far more capable system.
4. Economics
The current funding for the new/used (with these news) systems is for 964,000,000 Euros.
The M109's cost about 15,000,000 Euros.
So we have 950,000,000 Euros left. With those money maybe the 48 Dutch and German systems will be bought (each Dutch system costs maximum 4,000,000 Euros for Greece). So the 48 systems will cost about 200,000,000 Euros.
After all those, we have both saved about 750,000,000 Euros, thus making the buing of new PzH2000GR's something more than possible, the number 100 that BLACK SHIP refered to is indeed very close to todays needs, and also have money left to buy ammunition and to allocate to other programs (new fighter, new frigate etc)
Does anyone knows what are the differences between M109A3GEA1 and M109A3GEA2?
Is there any link in English? I have found 2 links but they are in German and unfortunately i don't speak German
though they have some very interesting photos.
http://panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/m109a3gea1/m109.htm
http://panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/m109a3gea2/m109.htm
Is there any link in English? I have found 2 links but they are in German and unfortunately i don't speak German
though they have some very interesting photos.http://panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/m109a3gea1/m109.htm
http://panzer-modell.de/referenz/in_detail/m109a3gea2/m109.htm
Sorry for interrupting the interesting diaulogue just to put here some data related with the problems over Aegean. On Friday 4rth of April turkish formations consisting of F-16s and F-4Es made an incursion in Athens FIR south of Samos and flew over the islands of Agathonisi and Fournoi -an inhabitant island- at an altitude of 400 feet above the ground of these two islands before the greek F-16s and Mirages intercept the intruders.The note is that on Fridays usually there is less aerial activity due to mechanic inspections that the aircrafts have to pass in order to be checked for failures etc. The political situation in Turkey nowdays is in a strange status while the Erdogans Party that took almost 40% of turkish voters now is under turkish justice attack and pressure like being in a "political hostage" status and it is threatend to be closed down by the supreme court of Turkey..
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/01/turkey?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews
Cause of these difficult political situation both sides should be very very carefull..we do not need many sparks to start a fire.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/01/turkey?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews
Cause of these difficult political situation both sides should be very very carefull..we do not need many sparks to start a fire.
... The Cyprus issue didn't even spark off a Greco Turkish war so what makes you think the political situation in Turkey will... :nutkick
If there are forces inside Turkey that would like to provoke or to make hard issues, that may happen during an unstable political situation.. And if we want to see it and from the other side of the coin even Greece could cause a situation in order to take advantage of this instability. My point is that political instability in both countries with open issues are critical and dangerous. I hope now you understood my point
. And if we want to see it and from the other side of the coin even Greece could cause a situation in order to take advantage of this instability. My point is that political instability in both countries with open issues are critical and dangerous. I hope now you understood my pointDear Fantasma,
Greece did use this issue back in 90s when Turkey was turbulent with weak governments , terrorism etc. There was wide support for PKK from Greece and the well known Kardak issue raised back then. However there was no hot conflict.
I remember seeing NOTAMs from TuAF and TuNavy for some regions in the Aegean which match the places you said but i don't recall the dates. It was talking about use of live ordinances etc. in 3 regions of Aegean ; Exit of Dardenelles, South of Lesvos, South of Samos. So maybe your interceptors already knew what was coming
FYI , Friday is maintenance day here too as is the last working day of week
Greece did use this issue back in 90s when Turkey was turbulent with weak governments , terrorism etc. There was wide support for PKK from Greece and the well known Kardak issue raised back then. However there was no hot conflict.
I remember seeing NOTAMs from TuAF and TuNavy for some regions in the Aegean which match the places you said but i don't recall the dates. It was talking about use of live ordinances etc. in 3 regions of Aegean ; Exit of Dardenelles, South of Lesvos, South of Samos. So maybe your interceptors already knew what was coming
FYI , Friday is maintenance day here too as is the last working day of week
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