Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[beleg]

SCALP officially doesn't violate MTCR terms. Rumour says that under certain conditions its range can be greater than 300 km , however its a weapon that will rely on satellite images which has to be obtained from 3rd parties to be used effectively. Not best choice of weapon if you ask me. Turkey has bought SLAM-ER which has similar range with SCALP which will be in service with F-16s in a few years.. One funny thing i observed when debating Greek-Turk forums was all the Greeks would complain Harpy drones of THK were violating the MTCR.. It is true that harpy has a range greater than 300 km but its pay load is far below 500 kg which puts it out of limitations. Fantasma most of the action over Aegean is well within the dogfight range it will be more important to have assets like HMCS , Iris-t and Aim 9-X during peacetime Balamir yes, that loop hole is being effectively used to sell those system to allied nations..

 

[fantasma]

Officially SLAM-ER has a range of 280 km (i dont know if it follows the e.g of France and its trully abilities overcome the officially given range)..so SCALP has the advantage here if as it is said SCALP has a range of about 400 km also other sources give around 600km. The biggest disadvantage of SCALP is that in every mission a Mirage can carry only one misille and as a it takes the place of the fuel carrier it reduces the range of the airframe and also its abilty to take many G's. On the contrary F-16 BL 50+ can carry 2 missiles without reducing their range. Also we have 90 missiles for 25 aircrafts and you have 50 missiles for 117 aircraft. That gives a potential of a variety of missions

 

[beleg]

dear fantasma,
the same situation applies to Popeye of THK. You can only equip one missile while the second pylon will be used for data pod. Popeye and SLAM-ER are both man in the loop missiles which means they can be directed at other targets. SCALP otoh is afaik fire and forget missile which will destroy it self if the mission is abandoned.

 

[kato]

SCALP otoh is afaik fire and forget missile which will destroy it self if the mission is abandoned.

Pretty much, yes. It's planned to include a two-way datalink and retargeting capability in the future (planned for introduction in France around 2015).

 

[swerve]

Pretty much, yes. It's planned to include a two-way datalink and retargeting capability in the future (planned for introduction in France around 2015).

Could easily be accelerated if someone paid for it.

 

[fantasma]

Let me put here an other aspect of the matter how stealthy will be JSF for export version. So according to this the F-35 for exports will be maybe of a degraded version compared to the US airforce aircraft.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cg...6101236.BUuMhX8AAAEAABxY9mQAAAAR&modele=jdc_1..
also, http://www.f-16.net/news_article2593.html

 

[beleg]

fantasma Turkey is a part of the JSF team. A while back similar questions were raised in Turkey by Turkish media and the MoD and SSM had explained that the planes we are getting have exact capabilities of USAF versions.. I don't think that any one on JSF team would accept a lower sthealth version of F-35..

 

[balamir]

fantaros??? you made me laugh..no my friend i was a servicemen in the army 7 yrs ago..fantaros means soldier..from the italic word fanteria, fante is infantry or footmen..

Whoops I'm really terribly sorry. That is what happens if you read multiple forums at the same time. Of course I meant Fantasma as I follow your posts in equal interest in ACIG.

 

[balamir]

fantasma Turkey is a part of the JSF team. A while back similar questions were raised in Turkey by Turkish media and the MoD and SSM had explained that the planes we are getting have exact capabilities of USAF versions.. I don't think that any one on JSF team would accept a lower sthealth version of F-35.

Also an LM officer mentioned that all partner countries would have the same stealth properties as US version.

I think the most important problem is the source codes. As both Italy and England are also part of a competing project (Eurofighter), it is understandable that US is reluctant to give them.

However, in my opinion LM should have an open architecture where they provide the basic routines and other companies could add on their own modules using those routines. For example, if I'm not happy with mission algorithms, I should be be able to write my own. If I'm going to do terrain following, all I need is to get the data from radar and to be able to control avionics. As long as F-35 software architecture provides those interfaces, the partner countries should be able to write their own high level algorithms which is the most important part.

Of course, there are liability issues but I'm sure LM could provide the above architecture with the understanding by the operator that, any changes to provided software invalidates the warranty

 

[beleg]

Balamir that Fantasma ,thankfully, is not the same person with our friend fantasma here.. Its almost impossible to maintain a civilized discussion with the other one :\

As for F-35 , it is not surprising that the plane is seriously being criticized.. But its still a plane that is in development phase. Recently its been announced that JSF will carry 6 AMRAAM missiles internally. The plane was highly criticized for lack of more a-a missiles. I remember the EF-2000 prototype which was on paper when i was going to junior high school. Now i am an old guy with a 10 yr old kid and the plane is still far from he initial plan (TIII)..

Give the plane a chance.. I am sure it will be even more successful than F-16..

 

[balamir]

Balamir that Fantasma ,thankfully, is not the same person with our friend fantasma here..

hmmm, if that is true, another apology is on the way. I would think fantasma is not much common and two greek fantasmas in two different military forums would be the same.

Anyway, before this is becoming any more embarrassing, I will just say, Fantasma, I'm reading your messages in this forum with great interest. Keep up the good work

 

[beleg]

In yesterdays SSM meeting it is decided that Turkey will develop its own frigate based on Milgem corvette. Details are unknown for now , it might be a multipurpose frigate or an AAW.

Tracked ammo supply vehicles will be purchased for our T-155 SPHs , probably Korean K-10s. This will increase the efficiency of our T-155 by magnitudes..

There are several other very interesting news especially in EW/EL-INT topics.

Also the Yavuz class Meko frigates will go under half life modernization with local abilities.

 

[fantasma]

After a long way period of silence of the EMPAE 2006-10 desicions yesterday we had a surprise. http://en.rian.ru/russia/20071206/91180539.html a desicion was taken to order 415 BMP 3 -not an -M class but a special version for Greece an upgraded version close to the BMP-3M standard-equipped with the latest versions with extra armor, new periscope systems, new battle management systems etc. Its version will be "westernized" PARTLY job has been done for U.A.E and from French Companies for parts of the BMP-3M
The deal is at cost of 1.2 billion euros (2.9 million per unit). Also a number between 35-50 BMP-3F a specified version to reinforce marines corps will be added to the 415 BMP-3 at zero cost totalling a number of around 450.
This deal to me has an obvious political background related with the latest developements and reapprochment with Russia concerning the energy sector see Burgas-Alexandroupolis pipeline, gas pipelines, etc.

 

[beleg]

I am not sure what to think of this. Germans were lobbying hard to sell Puma to Greece. I think its a set back for them. However no matter how westernized , no Russian system is worth 3m€/4.5m$ if you ask me . You can almost buy a modern tank for that price. Lets see what the final agreement will include.. Recently Greece is making interesting not choices in military procurements..

It is also said that Russia is pushing for Su-35 for the next gen aircraft. Highly unlikely but it will definitely delay selection of a new aircraft.. Which makes me think Greece and Turkey will have their new gen aircraft on similar time periods.

 

[fantasma]

A fully-equipped Puma with additional service expenses costs more than 7 milion euros. Almost double price from the deal curently announced with Russia at 3 or more milion euros per unit. Lets see in the future developements on that story and also the version that finally will be selected with all equipment that will accompany this agreement. We will see in the future details about the armor (weak spot that will probably be reinforced), turret, engines, etc.

 

[beleg]

Yeah the final version is important.. It might have the active defense systems the Russians are working on.. Or better armor and westernized systems.. However if you ask me when compared to German equipment this Russian IVF is not worth its money (except amphibious abilities). I still don't get the logic behind very expensive IFVs..

 

[dk706]

Well thats the thing, BMP-3 is not expensive, it is actually the cheapest one compared to competitors and that will actually allow for a greater number to be procured with the same money.

moreover we have to remember that this specific IFV has the heaviest armament in the market.

Very good buy in my opinion and perfectly timed in therms of politics.

P.s Finally something new in the Greek procurements after 3.5 years of stalemate.

 

[beleg]

Gentlemen we are talking about Russian equipment here. Remember you gladly donated you old BMPs to Iraqis a while ago. Good luck to Greek Army's logistic department.. Such a diverse weapons procurement program...

 

[BLACK SHIP]

The Greek Army have used Russian-made military equipment for a long time and it proved to be quite reliable in service .Reliability is a very serious factor for such equipment. Besides, Russian weapons, with similar characteristics with their western counterparts are 25% cheaper in terms of price and maintenance .One benefit of such large procurement is that some form of co production agreement will be made which will insure uninterrupted spare support.
As far the BMP-1 it was an old and outdated platform from the old DDR stocks and as such an obstacle to the modernization of the Armoured corps .

 

[caspianfish]

I think as a Turkey we should start thinking about a national defence industry.Buying weapons from Russia ( like Greece ) or US,Germany and other EU countries should not be the way of strengthing our army.

I served in army engineering corps and finished the military service this year.I got basic tarining about land mines in Izmir,Turkey (ISOKEM).All we had for training was a US aid with date 1950.