2nd Australian led Timor Leste intervention

[gf0012-aust]

NZ troops bound for Timor in Townsville

May 28, 2006 - 1:59PM

A company of 124 New Zealand soldiers will spend at least a second night in Townsville, Queensland, after leaving Christchurch on their way to join the Australian-led international stabilisation force in East Timor.

An infantry platoon of 42 arrived in Dili on Saturday night to prepare for the arrival of the New Zealand company which left on a Boeing 757.

New Zealand Defence Force spokesman Lieutenant Commander Andrew Lincoln said the company was going through "acclimatisation" in Townsville and waiting for more equipment, including ammunition and a light armoured vehicle, to arrive on a Hercules C-130 transporter plane.

There was still no confirmed date for the company to deploy in Dili.
"It could be as early as tomorrow, or Monday or Tuesday. But they'll be ready to go once they have the green light from the Government," Lt Cdr Lincoln told NZPA.

In Townsville, the soldiers were doing final equipment checks and fine-tuning to operate in the tropical heat.

"The platoon has arrived (in Dili) and is setting things up, so once the situation is clear the company will go in. Before you going into theatre there's lots of issues to sort out, like transport and where you're going to bunk down," Lt Cdr Lincoln said.

 

[scraw]

waiting for more equipment, including ammunition and a light armoured vehicle, to arrive on a Hercules C-130 transporter plane.

As in literally 1?

~170 guys and a single ride? The fight over those keys could get interesting

I assume there's a boat headed west out in the Tasman somewhere?

 

[Whiskyjack]

As in literally 1?

~170 guys and a single ride? The fight over those keys could get interesting

I assume there's a boat headed west out in the Tasman somewhere?

Interested to see if it is a LAV, may be a armoured Pinz, easier to get to Darwin using a C-130.

 

[Sea Toby]

It appears New Zealand could use more airlift, not to mention sealift. Its taking a long time to deploy to East Timor. Much too long. With the MRV the troops could acclimatise in route on the voyage instead of a point along the way.

 

[Sea Toby]

Yes, the MRV would come in handy now since one of its Boeing 757s is in the states receiving its cargo conversion upgrade. While the Boeing 757s and the ageing Hercules can move the troops quicker to a far destination, they can't haul all of the supplies and equipment quickly, even for a lighter force this time. Yes, the cargo conversion of the Boeing 757s would come in handy now too.

In my opinion since New Zealand is always deploying its forces long distances, maybe it should acquire a couple of C-17s too. At least they would be used, which many state wasn't the case with the air combat force.

While East Timor maybe a few hundred miles off the Australian coast, its a few thousand miles from New Zealand. Singapore and Malaysia are even further.

While the MRV wouldn't reach East Timor in a week, when it did it could carry 250 troops and all of their equipment, plus a few Hueys, and sustain them for a month in one trip. If the deployments lasted longer, the MRV could sail back to New Zealand and return in less than a month for resupply and sustain this for as long as necessary.

 

[Whiskyjack]

Yes, the MRV would come in handy now since one of its Boeing 757s is in the states receiving its cargo conversion upgrade. While the Boeing 757s and the ageing Hercules can move the troops quicker to a far destination, they can't haul all of the supplies and equipment quickly, even for a lighter force this time. Yes, the cargo conversion of the Boeing 757s would come in handy now too.

In my opinion since New Zealand is always deploying its forces long distances, maybe it should acquire a couple of C-17s too. At least they would be used, which many state wasn't the case with the air combat force.

While East Timor maybe a few hundred miles off the Australian coast, its a few thousand miles from New Zealand. Singapore and Malaysia are even further.

While the MRV wouldn't reach East Timor in a week, when it did it could carry 250 troops and all of their equipment, plus a few Hueys, and sustain them for a month in one trip. If the deployments lasted longer, the MRV could sail back to New Zealand and return in less than a month for resupply and sustain this for as long as necessary.

Yes logistics is a hassle. May be easier to store 5 LAVs AND 10 Pinz in Townsville or Darwin, to be used in small exercises and initial deployments to the North of Australia, deploy the troops to the equipment.

I think (unrealisticly I know) that NZ could fund 1 C-17 to be based with the RAAF C-17s and have access to 1 C-17 for use by NZDF. (Sorry for repeat of idea I have on another Thread.)

 

[Snayke]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

A combined millitary would mean a combined foregin policy, and Aus/NZ hasn't exactly seen eye to eye on several issues eg OIF

 

[Big-E]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

The day New Zealand becomes the next AU territory will be the day that happens... not likely.

 

[Supe]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

No thanks. I'm not for unification at the expense of influence from the NZ left. They'd run down our military. We'd be lucky to be left with our Armidales for the Navy, airlift for the airforce and the Army can wave bye bye to anything heavier than an ASLAV.

 

[Snayke]

Guess we'll stick to the good will we have then.

 

[buschy]

I'm thinking one day if Australia and New Zealand could have a fully integrated military? Just a thought though. I wonder if it is possible and has an advantage?

Well ya never know, maybe they'l ressurect the old ANZAC battalions. After all we do have a rich history of fighting side by side:cheers

 

[old faithful]

as late as 1994, E-coy 3RAR was NZ. Based in NZ, but the contingency was there, as was the doctrine. They visited us on one occassian,complete with 130 man Haka, very intimidateing. They were good blokes and good soldiers. dont know if it still exsists on paper or not....

 

[Supe]

For those who don't read Stratpage, I thought this GF summary on the complex situation in East Timor to be informative (I hope you don't mind GF):

• Alkatiri can't stand Gusmao - and has actively avoided involving him as - he was trying to dilute his influence
• Alkatiri has insisted on UN participation when the constitution actually doesn't require it. Once the represented Govt invites another country in, then its actually got nothing to do with the UN. Alkatiri however wants to take away any influence that the Aust Mil/Govt have as he knows that the current AustGov regards him as criminally negligent - and all the locals know that he is corrupt.
• Alkatiri has been trying to get Chinese resources investment in country as payback to australia
• Alkatiri has been promoting people within his clan group at the expense of the other major clan.
• the rebel troops also have a significant faction aligned to the western timorese elements - and thus its also a tribal dispute for some elements. Although pay disputes have been touted, that is of minimal influence. The main beef is that see that Alkatiri is soft shuffling with communists and they don't want it.
• Alkatiri can't stand Gusmao - and has actively avoided involving him as - he was trying to dilute his influence
• the rebel troops also have a significant faction aligned to the western timorese elements - and thus its also a tribal dispute for some elements
• the govt, pro govt troops are also from a different clan. they mistrust some of the rebels as they see them as being aligned to indonesia, whereas some rebels see that the pro govt troops are supporting a communist.
• there are factions within the factions. there are tribal loyalty issues both within the police, the army, and the rebels
• senior fretelin troops are suspected of providing arms to the militia and taking advantage of the more robust youth who have gone on a rampage. ironically they appear to be doing the very thing that pissed them off with the Indonesians in 99
• Horta and Alkatiri sat on this too long. Primarily its also because Aust is on the schitt list, they resent the way that they were (as they see it) robbed of righful oil and gas rights. In essence they see that AustGov bullied them for their resources - also another reason why they're looking at Chinese money as it will send a message to the Aust Govt about the level of their discontent. They also know that they can't req chinese help or the whole thing would go to custard very quickly, and as much as we're on their schitt list, we're also critical to helping them survive.
• Horta and Gusmao are aligned, Horta mistrusts Alkatiri
• this is a clan war as much as it is an idealogical war, as much as it is a racial war, as much as it is a "pay dispute".
• Alkatiri has accused Gusmao of inciting a coup and acting outside of his executive power. The comments re Gusmao are slightly flawed. he is an executive symbolic head anyway, he has no legal power to take charge of anything unless sanctioned by the Parliament/Govt.
• Alkitiri is way outside of his skillset. He's got into the role due to factional loading. Think of it as a variation of "branch stacking"
• the govt troops are predominately pro-australian
• both govt troops and rebel troops have had their leaders trained in australia
• the head of the rebels is a Naval Lt Cdr - even though the press call him a "Major"
• the president is pro australian and has an australian wife
• the secretary of the parliament is pro-australian
• the majority of the civilians are pro-australian
• as an aside, if the Indons are paying attention, they will also be pro-australian in the sense that Prime Minister Alkatiri is regarded as pro-communist - and they despise the communists. they also need Aust to manage it quickly as they don't want spillover into their problem provinces

all in all, its a classic cluster on their Govts part.

http://strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/30-78058.asp

 

[Snayke]

That naval lt commander was demoted while he was in the navy, wasn't he? That's what he said anyway. Demoted down to a desk job.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Airlift

I like the fact and it just goes to show the strength of the US-Aus alliance that when requested the USAF sent two C-17's for airlift support, sure they did the same in the orignal but that was global scale etc, this is low scale you ned some help here it is... fantastic.

In terms of Aus NZ forces merger, I think the Navy and Airforce, Airforce 100 percent ommonality ie lift, maritime patrol, helicopters, and the navy is already pretty close, the only better thing they could of done was get Armidales rather than the IPVs.

 

[Snayke]

Hey that's quite an idea. Merging individual branches. I think both navies merging or at least integrating a bit would be very benficial. It goes without saying that each nation would aid each other if they were attacked unprovoked.

 

[RubiconNZ]

Joint training

Exactly, a combination of traing schools, would be the first starting point, why should New Zealand lease multi engined training aircraft when australia has them and use them to train for the exact type aircraft Orions & Hercs, it there would be financial contribution of course, Officers already go to the ADF Academy and Duntroon so it would not be a stretch what is need is a concerted push by the NZ gov to developing holding capabilties. Perhaps I'll start a new thread to discuss it.

 

[rossfrb_1]

This is an absolute cracker

I won't post all the text of this rubbish. What I want to know is, who stands to gain from publishing this crap?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/jun2006/newz-j08.shtml
"
New Zealand joins Australia’s military occupation of East Timor

By John Braddock
8 June 2006

The New Zealand Labour government last month dispatched nearly 200 troops to support the Australian-led military occupation of East Timor. Underlining the close Australian and New Zealand collaboration in neo-colonial exercises throughout the region, the contingent includes soldiers who were deployed in the initial 1999 intervention in East Timor, some who had recently served in the Solomon Islands, and a group of military police just returned from Afghanistan.
Using social unrest and the fracturing of East Timor’s security forces as the pretext, the Australian government pressed Dili into issuing an “invitation” on May 24 and immediately began landing 1,300 troops as well as additional support staff and police. New Zealand troops were not far behind. The barely disguised purpose of the intervention is to effect a “regime change” in the impoverished statelet and tighten Canberra’s grip on oil and gas resources in the region.
The rapidity with which New Zealand joined the venture is a measure of Labour’s complete accommodation to Washington and Canberra. Like Australia, New Zealand regards the Asia-Pacific region as its own “backyard”, where it has longstanding strategic, business and trading interests. Plans have recently been mooted to revive the extensive use of Pacific peoples as a source of imported cheap labour.
As Australian Prime Minister John Howard has assumed the role of Washington’s “deputy sheriff” in the region, his New Zealand counterpart Helen Clark has tagged along as the deputy’s assistant. In providing support whenever and wherever required, Wellington expects a quid pro quo—US and Australian backing for its own interests in the Pacific.
Clark justified the latest intervention in East Timor, by decrying the “loss of law and order” and calling for a “robust show of force” to deal with the situation. Defence Minister Phil Goff proclaimed that the vast majority of the population would “welcome the presence of the Kiwis and the Aussies” and the “ability of our troops to provide them protection and take life back to normal”. Events quickly proved the opposite....."

 

[Snayke]

Too bad the East Timorese people disagree with his opinions, however wrong they are. Besides, it's a politcally biased website.