Indonesia: 'green water navy'

Ananda said:

https://indonesiadefense.com/bukan-ppa-ksal-sebut-fregat-merah-putih-akan-gantikan-kelas-ahmad-yani/

According to this local defense media, TNI-AL Chief stated PPA is not going to be replacement for Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani class. However the replacement will be Arrowhead 140 derivative Red-White Frigate (FMP). The replacement will be done gradually. Thus it means:

1. Strong indication now they are planning another batches of FMP. As if FMP are for replacing Van Speijk then they need another 4 of them. Could it be the joint statement in UK on Nov Indonesia: 'green water navy' related to Babcock further licensing agreement for FMP ?
2. It is also means PPA or another Frigate project are for additional capabilities.

This is quite important as throughout period, TNI-AL procurement is for replacement of obsolescence assets, and not additional capabilities.

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So the question is, the two SIGMA 10514 frigates (which were originally intended to replace the Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani frigates) are they (still) regarded as the replacement, or will eventually 6 Iver Huitfeldts be build?
Replacing them by one single class is nothing more than logic (instead of 2 SIGMA 10514, 2 FMP and 2 PPA), but that also means that anything outside the FMP/Arrowhead 140 will be additional capabilities.

We will see...everything can change anytime.

Sandhi Yudha said:

two SIGMA 10514 frigates (which were originally intended to replace the Van Speijk/Ahmad Yani frigates) are they (still) regarded as the replacement, or will eventually 6 Iver Huitfeldts be build?

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If base on TNI-AL Chief talk, then all 6 Van Speijk will be replaced by FMP. Instead previously talk of all 6 Van Speijk will be replace by 2 Sigma 10514, 2 PPA and 2 FMP. If this in held, then it is bit inlining with rumours that Sigma 10514 and Sigma 9113 will be classified as similar class of Corvettes-Light Frigates. Thus not on full size Frigates classification.

swerve said:

should be much, much more capable than the Van Speijk class ever was.

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Yes FMP will be much capable then Van Speijk, but what I meant with replacement of obsolescence vs new capabilities more on the enlargement of Frigates number. Van Speijk for sometime can be classified as the only 'real' Frigate of TNI-AL. Others Frigates (like ex USN Claud Jones and ex RN Tribal) being replace by Sigma 9113 and ex Nahkoda Ragam/F2000 Corvettes or Light Frigate.

Thus the TNI-AL Chief talk seems also indicating what Prabowo's presentation a year ago on 12 Frigates plan. FMP and PPA clearly intended for that. Thus they are planning to double the number of Frigates from 6 to 12.

Whether that 12 Frigate coming from rumours of 6 FMP and 6 PPA or another rumours of 4 FMP, 4 PPA and another 4 of undecided Frigate class (which can be French FDI, Turkiye Istanbul or Japanese renew offer of FFM). All depends on consistency of planning, which in Indonesia procurement planning bit chaotic (on consistency).

Well at least the plan so far seems more and more shown indicating that they are serious on this 12 Frigates plan.

Yes, but those old destroyer escorts & frigates would be called corvettes now.

I don't see the sense of all these different classes. Picking one & buying or building as many as wanted would seem to be better. Taking advantage of the availability of good secondhand ships (especially effectively unused ones such as the Nakhoda Ragam/Bung Tomos) is fine, a way to add capability cheaply, even if one can only obtain a few, but that logic doesn't apply to buying new ships built to order.

If Italy's offered a good enough deal on the PPAs - well, OK. But apart from that, just building more FMPs seems to be the obvious thing to do. More efficient logistically.

2 or 3 type of Frigates for Indonesia is not a new situation. Basically in the 80's through 90's, Van Speijk, Claud Jones and Tribal were 3 types of Frigates in Inventory. So by TNI mind set, they are so far not shown big support on simplification of types as Politics situation deemed that.

Politics always matter more in Indonesian Defense procurement then matter of logistics commonalities. I don't see that changing much on recent trend. So if they in the end settle on 3 types of Frigates as before, it is already much better then they go with 4 or even 5 types of Frigates.

What's more important is commonalities in SEWACO then types of Frigates in my opinion for TNI-AL situation. So far Euro systems like Thales, Leonardo, Terma or even Havelsan do shares some commonalities and abilities to interact with each other as Euro NATO standards.

Chinese and Russian system will do have potential to be procure occasionally. Again balancing politics will take matter on that decisions. Still it will not take majority toward Euro systems.

Kyodo News talk about Destroyer cooperation. However the previous talk on co-op is base for FFM design which's off course a Frigate. However there's talk/rumours that I heard on Japan offering AAW Frigate/Destroyer design to counter China move on that area with Type 52D.

Still from what rumours talk also, Indonesia MinDef wants whether it is Chinese or Japan design, it will use similar SEWACO systems with what TNI-AL already familiar with and operating or in process to be acquired. This is means the type can be base either from Japan or China, but the SEWACO mostly going to be Euro base. Euro in here means Euro NATO standard which can be either French, Italian or Turkiye.

Indonesia looking to boost local yards productivity but augmented by mature Yards with proven productivity records. So if what Kyodo info is accurate, then it is means for Frigate Indonesia looking from Euro zone cooperation, while this AAW Destroyer or Large Frigate looking to East Asia cooperation.

As Mitsubishi also involved in negotiations, if this is AAW design, then it could be FFM stretched AAW design that they also already prepared.



Will those above design be more interesting then Chinese Type 52D ?

Germany, Spain & the Netherlands build NATO standard ships, & SEWACO is Dutch, though used by many countries.

TNI-AL so far at this moment more familiar with Thales, Terma and Leonardo SEWACO. Recently Aselsan-Havelsan seems gaining ground. However shown all of them basically Euro NATO standard, and even domestic build from LEN basically Thales base.

This is seems why the rumours now on even getting several types of Capital ships can still be acceptable as long as the SEWACO are standardise or at least can communicate to each other. The French-Euro salesman facing increase onslaught of Turkiye SEWACO against Thales. Continues doing public campaign against Turkiye system as not really compatible with existing Euro Bases system. Off course Turkiye sales agent talk otherwise.

Still this shown on potential approach so far on emphasis for SEWACO similarities, rather then type similarities. Which is why I do tend to see more types (then only two) capital ships can happen, as long as all can operate similar base SEWACO.

Japan new PM Ishiba talk on 2 Fast Speed Patrol Boats, as part to enhance Maritime Security arrrangement with Indonesia. Don't have detail yet on the Boats, but as track record on Japan Maritime Security Co-op, it is more likely goes to Indonesian Coast Guard (Bakamla) then Navy.


At the mean time Chinese Coast Guard also try to loosen the tension with Indonesian Coast Guard. They even open their Guangzhou HQ (Coast Guard HQ that handle SCS) and invite Bakamla Chief to visit their cutter (as type below from Marine Traffic file), that use to shadow Bakamla Vessels in Natuna sea.



Either way both Japan and China continue their charm offensive and offer as part of their Maritime diplomatic moves. Personally I believe Japan will have better lobby on this matter against China SCS then US, especially for most ASEAN. Some in ASEAN seems more comfortable to put this as Inter East/Southeast Asia matter, rathern then bring outside power. Something that seems also being like by China even perhaps some in Japan and ROK factions. At least that what I read on some Japan and ROK media opinion.

One of Local Defense enthusiasts X account call DefenArt shown preparation of launching of Litoral LCT for Army Sea Lift Command. This 65m LCT design move away from Army Previous LCT design that are more traditional (as photo below).

French Media Mer et Marine shown picture of ex Italian Navy PPA Ruggiero di Lauria being using Indonesian Navy pennant number and name KRI Prabu Siliwangi.


Seems Fincantieri already convince enough that the contract already effective as preparation for Transfer those 2 PPA to Indonesia.

Bakamla (Indonesia Coast Guard) Chief talk in media on increasing their patrol vessel from 10 to 13. 1 is 85m patrol boat from Japan, and 2 are 80m and 60m patrol boat build domestically.

This is good news as shown move to improve non military maritime constabulary agency. Something that I have mentioned time to time very important on diplomacy level in handling maritime disputes and security.

The chief also talk offer from US for 30-40m patrol boats to Bakamla. If this is true then most probably a USCG class patrol boats that going to be retired by them soon. Potentially their Island Class.

Put it here, as most budget increases probably going to Navy. Especially considering the situation in SEA. However there's problem that I already put long time ago in one of Indonesian thread on getting target base on GDP. Most developing nations in Global South have smaller percentage of Government Income to GDP compare to develop nations.

This due to most developing nation has inefficient tax collection and off course larger leaks due to inefficient economic data calculations and transparency (diplomatic way saying corruption). In paper it is predicted by end of Prabowo's term, Indonesia GDP already increase from USD 1.5 T in 2024 toward close to USD 2.0 T in 2029. Thus 1.5% of GDP budget give USD 30 Bio numbers. Respectable number for budget to increase military capacity and not just capacity replacement that so far being use by Indonesia since 70's.

The plan also try to use the increase to improve local MIC productivity. Again on paper seems sound, but always the question in nation like Indonesia is how to improve Government budget effective usage first, before increase them.