radiosilence
jints
How do you figure?Of course they can't be sold or combat operational in the PAF with RD93.
How do you figure?Of course they can't be sold or combat operational in the PAF with RD93.
Here are the details.chaoticsensatio
hey guys just heard about another crash (F-7) in Baluchistan. does anybody know what happened and who was the pilot?
Making absurd claims without any proof, it has been commissioned in PAF and we are expecting 8-12 by the end of this year, and the next batch will come in 3 months. According to Pakistani media (All of them). As we knew before engines willn't be a problem, they are here to stay in Pakistan. :nutkickWhat so strange?
It's just two "chinese jets" out on tests in Pakistan. Nothing strange or illegal with that. Of course they can't be sold or combat operational in the PAF with RD93.
I would suggest that China is simply calling Russia's bluff. (If there was actually even one there) After what will happen now? Will Russia demand inspection of the engines for the JF-17's? will they angrily cancel all their deals and walk away from the billions of dollars? Or possibly certain countries over estimated their influence in this matter?Looks like sanctions against Pakistan work in Pakistan's favor.
What is also intriguing is no word from Russia. Am sure that these two birds have RD-93 and were comissioned into PAF. Points to a breakdown in India-Russian cooperation. Can someone explain how this happened.
depending on how many RD-93s have been delivered already. We know that at least 10 were delivered last year (when the original term of contract stipulated for 15 last year and 20 each year from 2007 to 2010). So, more may have been delivered. Again, the issue here is the quality of the Russians engines is terrible. 33% rejection rate is really not good. But anyhow, I suspect prototype 06 and possibly 05 might have been using Rd-93 delivered last year. So, that means they would have at least 8 left. That's enough for the commitment they made of delivering 8 JF-17s this year. I suspect they can deliver a few more and get more money (remember, China has only paid for the ones that got delivered) before Indian complaints get load enough for rest of the contract to be cancelled. If WS-13 project is progressing as well as recently reported (In February, it was mentionned that it had started the long duration test), then it could achieve IOC by the beginning of next year. Meaning, no more need for RD-93s. But that's just a rough guess at this.Looks like sanctions against Pakistan work in Pakistan's favor.
What is also intriguing is no word from Russia. Am sure that these two birds have RD-93 and were comissioned into PAF. Points to a breakdown in India-Russian cooperation. Can someone explain how this happened.
French,Russian,Indian and Us...some with Isreali Avionics...sounds like a logistical nightmare. To make it worth while, the F18 E/F buy would have to be pretty big, 126? With Tech support and weopons package? Whats that add up to? I think they will go Russian again.This could give India an excuse to go for the F-18superbug and AESA Radar and AMRAAMs and what not. A window they are looking for.
Their Mirages, MIG29s, Their LCAs, F-18E, SU-30MKIs.. with network centric strategy with AWACS and AESA... its a pretty good setup.
Manny
Your are right it could end up as blessing in disguiseLooks like sanctions against Pakistan work in Pakistan's favor.
What is also intriguing is no word from Russia. Am sure that these two birds have RD-93 and were comissioned into PAF. Points to a breakdown in India-Russian cooperation. Can someone explain how this happened.
And it will give Russia an excuse to sell SU-30/37 or PAK-FA to Pakistan which Pakistan probably is looking for after America used sanction as a diplomatic tool.This could give India an excuse to go for the F-18superbug and AESA Radar and AMRAAMs and what not. A window they are looking for.
Their Mirages, MIG29s, Their LCAs, F-18E, SU-30MKIs.. with network centric strategy with AWACS and AESA... its a pretty good setup.
Manny
True and If India shall go for American planes than it would be a shift of policy in long-term (as she will have to makes changes in logistic cell as well as to maintain em) which Russians knows very well and it would be a signal to look for new markets as well ... you guyz got what I meant ?? ermFrench,Russian,Indian and Us...some with Isreali Avionics...sounds like a logistical nightmare. To make it worth while, the F18 E/F buy would have to be pretty big, 126? With Tech support and weopons package? Whats that add up to? I think they will go Russian again.
I don't think Russia is going to call for inspection for a product which has already been delivered to Pakistan. That would be virtually out of Chinese domain & authorization. There may be a little fuss here & there though.I would suggest that China is simply calling Russia's bluff. (If there was actually even one there) After what will happen now? Will Russia demand inspection of the engines for the JF-17's? will they angrily cancel all their deals and walk away from the billions of dollars? Or possibly certain countries over estimated their influence in this matter?
Will India now cancel all their agreements with Russia for all their ships,submarines,planes and all the spare parts for the huge fleet of Russian aircraft that India operates?
No comments.China threatening Russia to withdraw arms purchase from them?
Flood gate off doesnt mean something isnt flowing, think a bit if you dont know stuffs dearWhere would China go? US? Europe? EU has a weapons sale restriction to China. Don't they? I know they want to sell to China. But the US has pressured EU not to open that flood gate.
Indeed, and you know what more choices brings more headeaches?, more kickbacks, some green cards and oh i absolutely forgot another like Mr singh in the makingIndia atleast has some choices...Ofcourse that creates its own headaches. But that headache is better than the one China has. A single vendor dependence
China threatening Russia to withdraw arms purchase from them?
Where would China go? US? Europe? EU has a weapons sale restriction to China. Don't they? I know they want to sell to China. But the US has pressured EU not to open that flood gate.
India atleast has some choices...Ofcourse that creates its own headaches. But that headache is better than the one China has. A single vendor dependence
Manny
Sorry what are you replying to? I am discussing a current issue so it's a little hard to "move on"keyersoze your simply exxegerating things, the world has changed move on!
Rd93's was supposed to power their Jets right from 98 so whats wrong with it now?
Even if is Rd 93 renamed as ws-13 you wont know one is socialist country another communist, press hardly makes it (sinosat 1 comes to mind)
So cool down and let each country do their homework, We are well on our way of indigenision, I've never supported this MRCA thing myself.
Aviation is like a industry just like any other..
Err no since what we are discussing is Russia canceling deals worth billions over a few engines merely to placate a third party.China threatening Russia to withdraw arms purchase from them?
Where would China go? US? Europe? EU has a weapons sale restriction to China. Don't they? I know they want to sell to China. But the US has pressured EU not to open that flood gate.
India atleast has some choices...Ofcourse that creates its own headaches. But that headache is better than the one China has. A single vendor dependence
Manny
I Like your quote but this is going to be difficult for the indians to shift towards US its very easy for PAK to go in the Russian camp because our all system are compatible with Chinees French and US systems .. While in the Indian case they have to Risk evry thing if they decide the Shift ...And it will give Russia an excuse to sell SU-30/37 or PAK-FA to Pakistan which Pakistan probably is looking for after America used sanction as a diplomatic tool.
J-10 , JF-17 , F-16 , SU-30 MKK (with no sanctions at all) with Erieye - Airborne Early Warning as well of Chinese AWACS buddy it seems to be cool combination too
True and If India shall go for American planes than it would be a shift of policy in long-term (as she will have to makes changes in logistic cell as well as to maintain em) which Russians knows very well and it would be a signal to look for new markets as well ... you guyz got what I meant ?? erm
India would not be willing to lose such a big amount...but it might not give all its deals to russia...for example it might contiue with PAK-FA but might opt out of MIG-35 and for F-18/eurofighter instead...my question is can pakistan afford to spend enuf to negate russia's loss with india?? because if russia is now selling pakistan advanced weapons, india will certainly not buy the same weapons and pakistan will have to but similar numbers to those which inida would otherwise have bought.I Like your quote but this is going to be difficult for the indians to shift towards US its very easy for PAK to go in the Russian camp because our all system are compatible with Chinees French and US systems .. While in the Indian case they have to Risk evry thing if they decide the Shift ...
and remember Russia will never losse them so easily its a huge market for the miltitary equipments almost around 10 Billion US Dollars a year,,,
Can any one wana losse such a bug amount.
himeed, what guarentee is there that india will buy Mig. As far as story goes, indian airforce wanted Mirage 2000 while most of the politicians are in favour of US system. If india wants to make sure no rd-93 engine is supplied to Pakistan, they will have to commit to Russian toy, Mig 35, really soon. even then it will atmost delay not stall JF-17 as WS-13 is coming out really soon not to add influence with US will be lost considerably.India would not be willing to lose such a big amount...but it might not give all its deals to russia...for example it might contiue with PAK-FA but might opt out of MIG-35 and for F-18/eurofighter instead...my question is can pakistan afford to spend enuf to negate russia's loss with india?? because if russia is now selling pakistan advanced weapons, india will certainly not buy the same weapons and pakistan will have to but similar numbers to those which inida would otherwise have bought.