Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

WAR

New Member
US senators move to block Pak military assistance

ahussains: It seems to be clear that US again back with PAKISTAN with the F-16 issue, what i read and every one thinks its again that Pakistan did not got the F -16 or even the MLU (Upgarde's) they want more form us..

CAN cany one define MORE .....
Please see the following story to get an idea on what's on.
WAR



The link is:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=6380



US senators move to block Pak military assistance


Democrats introduce legislation linking aid to democracy, progress in terror war; Boucher terms proposal counter-productive
WASHINGTON: Three top Democrats in the US Senate introduced legislation on Wednesday calling on the George W Bush administration to link future military aid to Pakistan to progress by Islamabad in combating terrorism within its borders.

“Military aid to Pakistan should be guided by demonstrable progress in achieving certain objectives related to counter-terrorism and democratic reforms,” read a text of the resolution submitted on Thursday by Senators Chris Dodd, John Kerry and Joseph Biden.

Biden and Dodd are vying for the 2008 Democratic presidential nomination, while Kerry was the Democrats’ nominee who lost to Republican President George W Bush in 2004. Their legislation observes that Pakistan has been “an important partner in removing the Taliban regime in Afghanistan and combating al-Qaeda and international terrorism”.

Still, the non-binding resolution seeks to ensure that Islamabad work vigorously towards “preventing al-Qaeda and associated terrorist organisations from operating in the territory of Pakistan”.

It also advocates “preventing the Taliban from using the territory of Pakistan as a sanctuary” to launch attacks within Afghanistan. “We must never forget the importance of going after the terrorists before they strike.”

The resolution was “intended to put Congress on record as making clear that military assistance to Pakistan will be assessed in the context of efforts in cracking down on the Taliban and the al-Qaeda”.

It implied that follow-up legislation would be introduced if Pakistan does not heed that warning. The legislation will be attached to the Senate version of an anti-terror bill that in the House contains the more strict aid language.

The proposal by leading members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee would not go as far as a measure approved by the House of Representatives. The House version, passed in January, would require Bush to certify that Pakistan is doing all it can to suppress the Taliban and the al-Qaeda before further financial aid is released.

Differences in the bills will have to be worked out in a committee with members of both chambers. Senate aides said they expect the proposal by senators Joseph Biden, the Foreign Relations chairman, and senior members John Kerry and Chris Dodd to replace the House version, in part because of the strong White House opposition.

The latest proposal was the second in the Senate this week dealing with Pakistan. On Monday, Democratic Senators Byron Dorgan and Kent Conrad offered a bill that would require the US intelligence director, John Negroponte, and Secretary of Defence Robert Gates to report to Congress within six months: where intelligence analysts believe Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders are hiding; whether leaders in those countries are cooperating in finding and arresting them; and, what more is needed from Congress to capture them.

That measure faces strong opposition from Republican President George W Bush. “Conditioning future American assistance to Pakistan...would not be helpful to the important goal of fostering more cooperation against the common threat of terrorism,” Assistant Secretary of State Richard Boucher told the House Foreign Affairs subcommittee on Wednesday.

Boucher said that the arms package should not be held out as a reward to Pakistan. “Pakistan is fighting the Taliban for its own good, and the United States and other nations benefit as a result,” Boucher said. At stake is the long-delayed sale of 18 new jet fighters, an opportunity to buy 18 more and refurbishing 34 used aircraft already in Pakistan’s air force arsenal.

“The F-16 sale is proceeding, some of the work has been concluded...some of the necessary paperwork, and we’re moving forward with the sale,” he said, when chairman of the committee Gary Ackerman, Democrat-NY and a former co-chair of the Congressional caucus on India, asked him about the status of F-16 jets deal.

Boucher reiterated the Bush administration’s opposition to a provision in the House legislation. “We really don’t think it is productive; we think it is counterproductive to the important goal of fostering more cooperation with Pakistan against the common enemy—against the Taliban and al-Qaeda and militant extremism.”

At the hearing, Democratic Chairman Gary Ackerman told Boucher that many members of Congress were “puzzled why we are not doing more to put in some backbone” with Pakistan. “We would like to see a little more muscle behind the policy,” Ackerman said.

In the same vein, Rep David Scott, also a Democrat, told Boucher: “I do not believe we are making all the progress we should be making.” The terrorists had havens in Pakistan’s border areas, and “it doesn’t seem we are getting our money’s worth” from US assistance to Pakistan, he added.

Boucher described Pakistan as “a vital partner and ally in our fight against the Taliban and al-Qaeda.” The Bush administration thinks that it is important for the United States and Pakistan to position themselves as partners in this effort and “we think this provision would undercut that”, he added.

Boucher said the US encourages actions against violent extremists but also recognises that purely military solutions are unlikely to succeed. “We, therefore, strongly support President Musharraf’s efforts to adopt a more comprehensive approach to combating terrorism and eliminating violent extremism in the border regions.”

President Gen Pervez Musharraf was pursuing economic and social reform in the border areas and the administration is supporting the effort, he said but did not specify how much US assistance will go into it. “We will continue to work with the government of Pakistan to develop a long-term strategic partnership that is multifaceted and committed to the peace and security” of the region.

Boucher defended Pakistan on several occasions during the hearing and cited the country’s crucial counter-terrorism efforts while answering questions about the country’s actions against militants in areas along Pakistan-Afghanistan border.

“I think it is important to remember that when it comes to fighting al-Qaeda, no country has done more and no country has lost more men in the process than Pakistan,” he emphasised. “The country made enormous efforts and suffered enormous cost.”

He rejected reports that Vice-President Dick Cheney gave any blunt message to President Pervez Musharraf regarding the war on terror, during his Pakistan visit. The vice-president “made clear our support for President Musharraf, our support for the effort they are making against al-Qaeda and the Taliban”.

Refuting that the vice-president “laid the hammer down”, Boucher said: “I think a lot of those reports are somebody else’s characterisation. I don’t think the vice-president would characterise his efforts that way. It is a very clear message, though, that we all need to be doing everything possible.”

Boucher told the lawmakers: “We can’t allow ungoverned spaces to exist, and that Pakistan has to exercise effective control over all its territory, the way just the way we’re trying to help Afghanistan exercise effective control over all its territory on the other side of the border.”
 

BilalK

New Member
Pakistani Lawmakers Threaten End To Anti-terror Cooperation

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, March 9 (AP) Pakistani lawmakers threatened on Friday to halt counterterrorism cooperation with Washington if American military aid is made conditional to Islamabad's commitment in fighting the Taliban and al-Qaida. “Pakistan's contribution to the war on terror is far higher than any other country,” the defense committee of Pakistan's lower house of parliament said. If it becomes law, the condition “calls for a reciprocal action from Pakistan, including complete or partial non-cooperation in the war against terror,” the committee said, according to an official summary of its Thursday meeting.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/09/welcome.htm
 
Its a non-binding resolution and the AP reported incorrectly.

Correction: US-Pakistan story

WASHINGTON - In a March 7 story about congressional Democrats trying to pressure Pakistan to step up its efforts against terrorism, The Associated Press reported erroneously that Senate Democrats had proposed a resolution threatening to block delivery of U.S. jet fighters to that country.

The resolution and an accompanying statement by three senators did not mention jet fighter sales.....
link
 

P.A.F

New Member
The US has no choice. Pakistans stance is clear!!! No aid, No help with the war on terror. I don't think the US can take such a risk because they will virtually cripple if pakistan pulls out of the war.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
what is the news on JF-17 finally 10th march has arrived.... the wait is gone..
Two JF-17 arrived in Pakistan, reassembled and had ground run today according to an excellent source. They will be participating in National Day parade on March 23rd as planned.
 

general

New Member
I hope that after getting the vipers PAF won't be starving for spares or using other planes as attrition for spares.

BTW there was news that PAF might induct upto 300 JF-17's. Any lates details?
 

aaaditya

New Member
Thats a pure BS ... I live in Islamabad & nothing sort of that has ever happened. In fact no IAF jet has ever flew over Islamabad in history. Since 1971 there have been no fighter jet crossings by either country (Kashmir/Kargil being exceptional). There have only been spy plane flights by both countries



Hello to you as well Turkish friend.
heere is an interesting article on the mig25's of the indian airforce ,including the images and declassifies inforrmation,the mig25 overfly over pakistan incident took place in 1997,the mig 25 was flown over 90000 feet several times.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Foxbat.html

this article contains the entire history of the mig25 's service with the indian airforce .

did anyone here know that besides the overflying ,the mig25's were several time used to monitor pakistani armoured formations,they had no missile defence capabilities as they relied purely on their speed and altitude performance .they could map the whole of pakistan in a singe digit of missions.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
heere is an interesting article on the mig25's of the indian airforce ,including the images and declassifies inforrmation,the mig25 overfly over pakistan incident took place in 1997,the mig 25 was flown over 90000 feet several times.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Foxbat.html

this article contains the entire history of the mig25 's service with the indian airforce .

did anyone here know that besides the overflying ,the mig25's were several time used to monitor pakistani armoured formations,they had no missile defence capabilities as they relied purely on their speed and altitude performance .they could map the whole of pakistan in a singe digit of missions.
Aaaditya,
Not surprising. Mig-25 may have done what F-104s routinely did over India. And that time India had no answer to F-104s flight over India.

We in PAF are aware of many such flights, one f which was over Palam by one of my friends.
 

uaf

New Member
Pakistani Lawmakers Threaten End To Anti-terror Cooperation

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, March 9 (AP) Pakistani lawmakers threatened on Friday to halt counterterrorism cooperation with Washington if American military aid is made conditional to Islamabad's commitment in fighting the Taliban and al-Qaida. “Pakistan's contribution to the war on terror is far higher than any other country,” the defense committee of Pakistan's lower house of parliament said. If it becomes law, the condition “calls for a reciprocal action from Pakistan, including complete or partial non-cooperation in the war against terror,” the committee said, according to an official summary of its Thursday meeting.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/03/09/welcome.htm
:D I knew it will happen sooner or later America is no friend of Pakistan never was and co-operation after 9/11 was itself in interests of Pakistan but now scenario has changed a bit.
On one hand we are non-Nato ally and on other do more ........... certainly Democrats will put sanctions on F-16's too believe me read the history they did it every time after Bill Clinton its going to happen again but we should give credit to our PAF as we aren’t inducting as much of F-16's as planned simply we will purchase more J-10's and there wont be any fears of sanctions or what ever further we all know very well china is rapidly developing advance technology.

And our lawmakers, well in my opinion we should IMMEDIATLY stop co-operating in war on terror if the bill passes. Look at the situation if US will attack Iran our Economy can collapse. And another border after Indian and Afghan we dont have enough troops to deploy on all sides and simply its a ploy to target Pakistan after Iran simple is that so Pakistan should take every possible step to prevent this war like we already doing.

Americans are making far too many enemies than friends specially their stance against Muslims in particular. Pakistan has no other trust worthy friend but China and in future Muslims will be backing China as next super power with Russia a new block against America and its allies. But never mind.

Hey guyz we should closely look at India's MRCA deal as well suppose if she buys from EU or America Russia might offer us SU-30 or rather Mig's Russians are't stupid they know very well they are losing Indian Market and they will defiantly explore new one’s. Russia and China are now trying to make close relations with Muslim country’s after what America is doing , Nuclear Energy offering to KSA is an example ........

Consider the deal of F-16s scrap it could happen around 2008 if not now and start executing contingency plans if we have any or make one.

No F-16's No Sanctions No blackmailing and No Tension (No Lafra) :vamp
 
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Manny

New Member
Well..Time for Hot pursit into Pakistan? Maybe this is the game plan.

Its much easier to hot pursuit than to deal with uncoopertive Generals.. Why maintain the charade about... partner in WOT and other silly stuff that everyone around the world knows is false.

Manny
 
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cheetah

New Member
Well..Time for Hot pursit into Pakistan? Maybe this is the game plan.

Its much easier to hot pursuit than to deal with uncoopertive Generals.. Why maintain the charade about... partner in WOT and other silly stuff that everyone around the world knows is false.

Manny
Manny you obviously have no idea about the area.hot pursuit or extremely hot pursuit.without Pakistan help.its a dead end pursuit.
Funniest thing that i don't understand most of the Americas NATO friends don't wanna lose there personal.yet they want Pakistan to do it for them hmmmm why.isn't capitalist system no money no honey.we have learned a lot since the last time.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Q. JF17 production by Pakistan is quoted as 15 - 20 aircraft per year by 2009. As China has not ordered any at this stage,does that mean China,s production will be sold to the PAF, if this is so,then the PAF could be inducting more than 30 JF17,s per year.
 

uaf

New Member
:(
Manny you obviously have no idea about the area.hot pursuit or extremely hot pursuit.without Pakistan help.its a dead end pursuit.
Funniest thing that i don't understand most of the Americas NATO friends don't wanna lose there personal.yet they want Pakistan to do it for them hmmmm why.isn't capitalist system no money no honey.we have learned a lot since the last time.
Well Said further let me say

All the NATO Plans (almost) fly over Pakistan's sky where will you get supplies from if Pakistan's wont allow you to pass through its territory any more ??

Iran yea go ahead that's probably is the plan what ever

There will always be sanctions against Pakistan no matter what we do in war on terror so we better prepare our self than wait for it to happen. It could end up as blessing in disguise if F-16 wont come to Pak's way , we got JF-17 because of 1990's sanctions well Thanks to our American Friends and we will induct J-10 in large numbers this time simple is that and one very important point J-10 is in its initial stage so there is room for improvement in it as the years pass on but not in F-16 as its assembly line shall stop producing it around 2008/2009.

Well no need to worry a lot we actually are learning at least as America is no friend or rather some hawks in Congress

Cheers

Ali
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Manny you obviously have no idea about the area.hot pursuit or extremely hot pursuit.without Pakistan help.its a dead end pursuit.
Funniest thing that i don't understand most of the Americas NATO friends don't wanna lose there personal.yet they want Pakistan to do it for them hmmmm why.isn't capitalist system no money no honey.we have learned a lot since the last time.
The pursuit ends in Pakistan. You want NATO to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan or do want to do it on your own?
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Well Said further let me say

All the NATO Plans (almost) fly over Pakistan's sky where will you get supplies from if Pakistan's wont allow you to pass through its territory any more ??
Supplies are not flown in from the Pakistani side. Carrier based jets and B-1B's from DG, etc. use Pakistani airspace.
 
The pursuit ends in Pakistan. You want NATO to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan or do want to do it on your own?
Hot pursuit into Pakistani territory will not solve anything, matter of fact it will only complicate things more. According to a UN report on Afghistan release last year most of the Taliban are based in Afghistan. ISAF will needs Pakistani cooperation in order for them to be successful in Afghanistan. Nato needs to provide assistance(equiptment,training, and economic) to the Pakistanis for them to take control of the tribal areas. History have shown how difficult it is to control the Pashtuns who populate the tribal areas where the Taliban is believed to be operating out of. Also, the Afghan refugees camps in Pakistan needs to be close ASAP. They are about 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan which serves as a recuiting ground for the Taliban. The Pakistanis have been trying to move the refugees back with little or no cooperation from the Afghan. govt and the international community. Lastly, ISAF needs to consider Pakistan's national interest in the region.
 
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A

Aussie Digger

Guest
:D I knew it will happen sooner or later America is no friend of Pakistan never was and co-operation after 9/11 was itself in interests of Pakistan but now scenario has changed a bit.
On one hand we are non-Nato ally and on other do more ........... certainly Democrats will put sanctions on F-16's too believe me read the history they did it every time after Bill Clinton its going to happen again but we should give credit to our PAF as we aren’t inducting as much of F-16's as planned simply we will purchase more J-10's and there wont be any fears of sanctions or what ever further we all know very well china is rapidly developing advance technology.

And our lawmakers, well in my opinion we should IMMEDIATLY stop co-operating in war on terror if the bill passes. Look at the situation if US will attack Iran our Economy can collapse. And another border after Indian and Afghan we dont have enough troops to deploy on all sides and simply its a ploy to target Pakistan after Iran simple is that so Pakistan should take every possible step to prevent this war like we already doing.

Americans are making far too many enemies than friends specially their stance against Muslims in particular. Pakistan has no other trust worthy friend but China and in future Muslims will be backing China as next super power with Russia a new block against America and its allies. But never mind.

Hey guyz we should closely look at India's MRCA deal as well suppose if she buys from EU or America Russia might offer us SU-30 or rather Mig's Russians are't stupid they know very well they are losing Indian Market and they will defiantly explore new one’s. Russia and China are now trying to make close relations with Muslim country’s after what America is doing , Nuclear Energy offering to KSA is an example ........

Consider the deal of F-16s scrap it could happen around 2008 if not now and start executing contingency plans if we have any or make one.

No F-16's No Sanctions No blackmailing and No Tension (No Lafra) :vamp
So you think America is going to keep Pakistan's money and not deliver on the aircraft, weapons and MLU kits for existing aircraft, that have already been ordered and approved, eh?

America has delivered on every other order you've placed lately. How are all those new UH-1H and AH-1W attack helo's going? Have the TOW and Sidewinder missile shipments arrived yet? They couldn't be too far off. Those P-3C Orions that arrived in Janury 2007, working out okay are they?

Last time America refused to deliver the F-16's was due to Pakistan's development of nuclear weapons, as I recall. It hasn't done anything "outrageous" like this, lately.

I'd wait and see if I were you. The sales and contracts have already been approved by the US Executive and the US Congress, which is already controlled by the Democrats.

It must be wonderful to be able to make pronouncements of such certainty. Tell me, you couldn't pass on the Australian lotto numbers for the coming weekend could you?

I'd appreciate it awfully... :)
 
Yeah.. How long are the paks going to milk that cow? Its time to call their bluff. We don't need the Paks. We tried it..and it ain't working. So lets cut the bull and go for Plan B.

Establish..Air superiority over their airspace if they try anything funny. and then give them specifc areas the NWF folks can move their civilians to. Use ground force to have some control in those civilan areas to make sure...the iterrorists are NOT using the civilian areas and then use NAPALM in other areas. clear the vegitation and start the bombing runs.

Here is another solution from a Pakistani himself to end terrorism.


If plan B as you put it was a serious solution, why wasn't it adopted already? Keep having those wet dreams MANNY......
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Hot pursuit into Pakistani terrority will not solve anything, matter of fact it will only complicate things more.
Agree with you that intervention won't make things easier. That the Pakistani Govt take hand of this is to prefer. I'm not blaming Pakistan for the situation in the frontier provinces. Musharraf doesn't have the political maneuver space to move against the tribes.

However, I take note that what is going on on a nations sovereign territory is ultimately its responsibility - so in principle it is not a favour Pakistan is doing when moving against the Talibs - it is their responsibility.

According to a UN report on Afghistan release last year most of the Taliban are based in Afghistan.
Haven't read the report, but not the picture I've got. Key infrastructure, sanctuary, recruiting, funding and training takes place in Pakistan.

ISAF will needs Pakistani cooperation in order for them to be successful in Afghanistan. Nato needs to provide assistance(equiptment,training, and economic) to the Pakistanis for them to take control of the tribal areas. History have shown how difficult it is to control the Pashtuns who populate the tribal areas where the Taliban is believed to be operating out of. Also, the Afghan refugees camps in Pakistan needs to be close ASAP. They are about 3 million Afghan refugees in Pakistan which serves as a recuiting ground for the Taliban. The Pakistanis have been trying to move the refugees back with little or no cooperation from the Afghan. govt and the international community. Lastly, ISAF needs to consider Pakistan's national interest in the region.
I can only agree with this, but for the last sentence. What is Pakistans national interest?
 
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