Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[tphuang]

Your are right it could end up as blessing in disguise

And it will further strengthen ties b/w China and Pak as well as Russia u know. If Russia doesn’t have any objections on RD-93 than mats I think J-11 can come in picture as well......

What do you think and especially to Umair I want to ask about future of J-10 as well J-11 (or might be SU Series) in PAF as Russia doesn’t have any objection on RD-93 for JF-17 probably the overall scenario can change in near future...

Cheers

a couple of things:
1) I have no idea why all the Pakistanis spend all days bashing Russian equipments and then still dream about getting flankers. Why the heck would you want an overpriced, underwhelming fighter like mkk?
2) J-11B has already been rejected.

 

[pshamim]

a couple of things:
1) I have no idea why all the Pakistanis spend all days bashing Russian equipments and then still dream about getting flankers. Why the heck would you want an overpriced, underwhelming fighter like mkk?
2) J-11B has already been rejected.

Looks like you have not noticed both sides bashing each other even when their forces are not facing in the battle field. Their weapons are just the casualty of the verbal salvo. This is a chronic disease suffered by both Pakistanis and Indians.

 

[vedang]

i dont think ,that india will go for russian mig35's despite it being an impressive aircraft, i also dont think india would be going for the super hornet unless if usa gives a very irresistible offer,nor for gripen,india may go for the french rafale or the eurofighter typhoon,this should keep russia slightly happy since it would not be losing its market to usa,india would be happy since it already has experience operating western aircrafts manufactured by france and uk,usa will be disappointed,but there is nothing that they can do about it.

to satisfy russia india has recently signed a deal for the purchase of 40 sukhoi 30mki's ,to supplement the 180 already ordered,india may also purchase 36 additional mig29k's to supplement the 24 already ordered,that is 76 additional aircrafts from russia.

also russia has a lot to lose it it turns completely to pakistan,for example india and russia have a defence agreement for anti ballistic missile development worth 10 billion dollars ,acquissition of defence equipment for the army and navy worth 10 billion dollars and joint development of defence technology,there is also provision in this agreement for india to shop abroad if russia is not able to provide technology to india's requirements,also the indo-russian trade which is growing ,though slowly and the indian investements in russia which are quite substantial.

selling of helicopters and a few engines to pakistan is not likely to affect the indo-russian trade , offcourse india will express its displeasure,but if russia sells pakistan fighters or if india acquires fighter from usa(in particular) then it would be an equation changing issue.

Post not related to this thread but I dont agree with that post..See all the fighters in the competition have got a drawback in them which I think you missed...
[1]MiG-35:
However advanced it may be, but finally it IS at the end of its design development life.Any further improvement in its design requires a massive re-design of the whole structure.

[2]Gripen:
Performance very similar with LCA.Buying it means compromising with LCA numbers (UNACCEPTABLE with the government or DRDO).

[3]SuperBugs:
The biggest attraction in it AESA will,most probably, not be cleared.1 more very big problem with all aircrafts EXCEPT MiG-35 will be LOGISTICS which will play a very important role in the final choice.

[5]TYPHOON or RAFALE:
A very big risk in buying it is that both of them haven't been fully developed, be it radars or full multi-role performance.Most probably the IAF wouldn't go with a choice which involves any possible risk.
And also related to them will again be massive logistics problems.

Moderator Edit: Please stay with the subject of the thread. All further posting about IAF should be made in Indian Air Force thread. Pshamim

 

[ahussains]

so i think India Will go for MIG 35 because it they dont have any other option ... and they can not affort to take the RISK by inducting Rafle or Typhon ... and US they are not Giving any thing to IAF .. May be if they offer they will give some F-15 .. or may be F-18 any other thing is impossiable..


Please do not post anything IAF related in this thread. Stay with PAF here. Moderator

 

[tphuang]

Looks like you have not noticed both sides bashing each other even when their forces are not facing in the battle field. Their weapons are just the casualty of the verbal salvo. This is a chronic disease suffered by both Pakistanis and Indians.

that's not the point. Either flankers are good or they are not. They don't become good when PAF suddenly has them. I think it's quite clear what my point is. If you think the more advanced su-30mki is not that great, then don't keep on talking about getting the less advanced su-30mkk. Be consistent with your assessment of a certain platform.

 

[falconlover81]

that's not the point. Either flankers are good or they are not. They don't become good when PAF suddenly has them. I think it's quite clear what my point is. If you think the more advanced su-30mki is not that great, then don't keep on talking about getting the less advanced su-30mkk. Be consistent with your assessment of a certain platform.

TP I personally agree with you.A weapon system's quality does not change by just changing the country which is using it nevertheless why would someone go for SU-30 MKK or for that matter the J-11B when you have a more potent platform by the name of J-10.By the way J-10 reminds me of something,I just read somewhere on the net that the PAF is going for 140
J-10's.TP I just want you to confirm this news for me.
Thanks

 

[pshamim]

that's not the point. Either flankers are good or they are not. They don't become good when PAF suddenly has them. I think it's quite clear what my point is. If you think the more advanced su-30mki is not that great, then don't keep on talking about getting the less advanced su-30mkk. Be consistent with your assessment of a certain platform.

TP! Personally, I have never discussed the SU-30s or even commented on advantages/disadvantages of these aircrafts.

Problem is with the patriots on both side of the border many of whom have nothing but to attack the other side. They lack the basic knowledge about the issues but are bent upon posting anti-country comments.

I agree with your comments about such posts which make no sense.

 

[tphuang]

TP! Personally, I have never discussed the SU-30s or even commented on advantages/disadvantages of these aircrafts.

Problem is with the patriots on both side of the border many of whom have nothing but to attack the other side. They lack the basic knowledge about the issues but are bent upon posting anti-country comments.

I agree with your comments about such posts which make no sense.

It's not you, Pshamim.

TP I personally agree with you.A weapon system's quality does not change by just changing the country which is using it nevertheless why would someone go for SU-30 MKK or for that matter the J-11B when you have a more potent platform by the name of J-10.By the way J-10 reminds me of something,I just read somewhere on the net that the PAF is going for 140
J-10's.TP I just want you to confirm this news for me.
Thanks

It's also a matter of J-10 fitting into PAF scheme of things far better than a flanker could. For example, a flanker's advantage of having better range and payload really isn't that useful for Pakistan's needs. Whereas the costs of operating a twin-engined fighter like flanker also exceeds that of a single engine fighter. Not sure about J-10 purchase numbers, everything on J-10 export have been from Pakistani side, so you should know as much as I know at this point.

 

[SABRE]

TP 1st of ur previous question on why Pakistani say Su-30 is a bad fighter & than they want it. Its very simple & stupid (not only from Pakistani side but also from Indian). It goes like this;

You have it = Its the best thing in the world
You dont have it = Its the Worst thing in the world

***Conclusion = You want it !!!! ***
​

As long as IAF has Su-30 its the worse fighter in the world, but if it gets into PAF it would become the best over night - in fact it would be better than those of IAF.

Same with Indians. Their Su-30 is like a "God" compared to F-16. Also their Mirage-2000 & MiG-29. Hack they would even put MiG-21 as much better fighter than F-16. But if IAF buys F-16, it would become the best fighter over night.

Its not even patriotic. Its just kiddish.

It's also a matter of J-10 fitting into PAF scheme of things far better than a flanker could. For example, a flanker's advantage of having better range and payload really isn't that useful for Pakistan's needs. Whereas the costs of operating a twin-engined fighter like flanker also exceeds that of a single engine fighter. Not sure about J-10 purchase numbers, everything on J-10 export have been from Pakistani side, so you should know as much as I know at this point.

The needs of PAF are rather questionable. It can not be said they need more niether it can be said they need less of something. For years army has been deciding what Air Force & Navy should have (of course based on AF & Navy's own recommendations & demands) - it is because of this the Air Force & NAvy ppl are always so p!$$3d off on the amry. The PAF people them selves see no trouble in maintaining twin-engine aircraft (In fact I believe they would love to have one) but the army (since its in rule) calls for saving of money going for single engined F-16s, JF-17s & J-10s in order to save money (the saved money than goes into army's pocket instead of government). This has happened a lot in the past & I wouldnt doubt some thing of sort might have happened recently. Although PAF got billions of dollars recently for fighters, weapons, awacs etc purchase - so did the navy for subs & ships.

As for J-10. What you know right now is all what is out there. "PAF wants to buy (36) J-10s" thats it. Dont go on believing any other thing. The Pakistanis know as much as the less informed Chinese do.

 

[ahussains]

Nice thinking SABRE... and your statment is kool too.. So what you think is there is any possiabilty of Twin engine AIRCRAFT in PAF. Like J-11 SU 27 or SU 30 chinees assembled or the future chiness 4th genration Stealth Air craft. JXX or any thing like this...

 

[umair]

That would first of all mean getting the army to give up control(even though it's Passive) over the procurement budget. As far as twin engined aircraft(speciffically Flankers) are concerned for the PAF do a search for my posts in the various PAF threads going back to the start of the forum. I did give the reasons(the main one of which has been re-iterated by Sabre) somewhere in either 2002-03.

 

[SABRE]

Nice thinking SABRE... and your statment is kool too.. So what you think is there is any possiabilty of Twin engine AIRCRAFT in PAF. Like J-11 SU 27 or SU 30 chinees assembled or the future chiness 4th genration Stealth Air craft. JXX or any thing like this...

There is always a possibility, but availability is the core subject. I cant really say about PAF going for Su-27 built by Chinese (Dont think they build assemble Su-30, they buy it directly from Russia). Remember we are already into a risky battle on the engine issue of JF-17 & engine is not the only Russian product on Su-27. Considering the risk factor I see little chances for PAF going for Su-27 (Note: In late 1960s & early 1970s PAF bought F-6 from China only after Sino-Soviet relations gone bad & China started to produce F-6 on its own without any license).

Since not much is known about J-XX, its better not to say much about it in PAF. Lets not start romers & speculations.

As for anyother Twin Engine fighter...well read Umair's "post from the past" ... much of them are informative..might give you better idea & some ability to reach the conclusion/answer on your own. However, I'll give u something to scratch your head about. Many times signals have been recieved by PAF on Rafale & EF-2000 in future purchases & sometimes even F-18 (the Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz did say something regarding to it but only once) -- [the signals have been weak though].

 

[umair]

Here is what I've learned about PAF's pet project from one of my sources and have also posted it on pakdef.

Uh guys, I ended up having a long chat on the phone with one of my relatives today who is working on this project. A few good tidbits he was good enough to share with me.
1) The Thunder from now onwards is a high tech 4th generation aircraft and after proper paper work has been done, will be reffered to as such in the future litrature for the aircraft(he personally called it 4.3-4.4.ish)
2)These airframes(plus the ones to be delivered) are pre-production familiarisation and certification frames. The certification and trials will be completed by the mid of next year @ earliest and last quarter by latest.
3) And oh yeah technologically speaking it will be either @ par or marginally inferior than our 52+s.

 

[ahussains]

Pakistan Day Prade.

I see it on PTV.. The JF 17 joins the Air show in a nice clour scheme .. It looks beautiful and preety tooo.. The Fuselage side is painted with Pakistani Flag Scheme While the Upeer Cockpite side is Painted With Chinees Flag and the Tail side is painted with Pakistani FLAG...

Congrats to Every One .....

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showphoto.php?photo=21640

 

[ahussains]

There is always a possibility, but availability is the core subject. I cant really say about PAF going for Su-27 built by Chinese (Dont think they build assemble Su-30, they buy it directly from Russia). Remember we are already into a risky battle on the engine issue of JF-17 & engine is not the only Russian product on Su-27. Considering the risk factor I see little chances for PAF going for Su-27 (Note: In late 1960s & early 1970s PAF bought F-6 from China only after Sino-Soviet relations gone bad & China started to produce F-6 on its own without any license).

Since not much is known about J-XX, its better not to say much about it in PAF. Lets not start romers & speculations.

As for anyother Twin Engine fighter...well read Umair's "post from the past" ... much of them are informative..might give you better idea & some ability to reach the conclusion/answer on your own. However, I'll give u something to scratch your head about. Many times signals have been recieved by PAF on Rafale & EF-2000 in future purchases & sometimes even F-18 (the Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz did say something regarding to it but only once) -- [the signals have been weak though].

Rafle and Eurofighter again the west and the sanctions while india is also planning to induct Eurofighter too then the same technology both side and the west is not reliable for supplying of sapers and other technical data..
Rafle is too expansive we can not afford it. and its also not is full sacle of production, we can not afford such a big risk.
F-18 forget it we are not getting F-16 and the MLU kits how could we got HORNETS... Impossiable to me

 

[pshamim]

we are not getting F-16 and the MLU kits how could we got HORNETS... Impossiable to me

Is it a speculation on your part or rumors spread by others that you are quoting. What is the basis of this comment.

We already have the new L.M's Program Manager for F-16s in place now, and per him, all preparations are completed and the project has already started. Hope it will make many people sleep better.

 

[iceman_pk]

first off all cograts to all pakistani and chinese brothers. SABRE, pshamim, umair & other senoir members what r the specs of radar... what next may be making it's way next to F-16 & J-10

 

[BilalK]

Is it a speculation on your part or rumors spread by others that you are quoting. What is the basis of this comment.

We already have the new L.M's Program Manager for F-16s in place now, and per him, all preparations are completed and the project has already started. Hope it will make many people sleep better.

So is the PAF designating the F-16C/D procurement project as different from the F-16A/B acquisition and MLU upgrade? Meaning are there two or three different F-16 projects running in PAF? Or are they under one (i.e Project Falcon)?

How is the U.S designating this? Is this new deal still under the Peace Gate program?

 

[pshamim]

These are two different projects handled separately by different entities in LM. Prgram Manager, I mentioned in my earlier post, is for the new Blocks and not MLU.

No the MLU is not under the Peacegate program.

 

[ahussains]

These are two different projects handled separately by different entities in LM. Prgram Manager, I mentioned in my earlier post, is for the new Blocks and not MLU.

No the MLU is not under the Peacegate program.

How many years of life of F-16 is incressed by the LM programe and what is the basic diffrence with MLU .. in the MLU programe its incress the Life of Aircraft upto 5000 Hours incleding the upgrades of radars airframe , cockpits and many other stuff ... and one other programe of F-16 on which Belgium Airforce is working on the ELU (End life Upgrade)...