Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[Waylander]

Ah, the automated tracking system and the battlefield management system are nice items.
The rest is nearly the same as in the Leo 1A5.
Is the armor also improved?

In the end a Leopard 1 gives you excellent mobility and hunter/killer capabilities.
But when facing something bigger than a 30-40mm gun you should be sure to be the first to fire.

 

[Soner1980]

Ow ok, I understand. The project for 162 Leopard-1 upgrading with Volkan is $ 160 mln.. Yes 160mln / 162 = $ 987.654,32 Almost a million $.

No armor upgrade yet, but it is good to up-armor them with the Sabra like passive armor plates or even with ERA too. But btw, this tanks will be phased out over 10 year I think.

 

[Waylander]

Not that cheap.
You have to take into account that you would get Leo 1A5 for nearly nothing (Just the steel price and transportation costs).
Add a battlefield management system and a MG which can be fired under armor protection and you would nearly have the same tank. Just the auto tracker would not be implemented.
But I agree that this would not be good for your economy so in the end the Volkan upgrade might still be the better decision.

 

[Soner1980]

It is not only to getting cheap tanks with nearly the same quality, but giving the defensive industry a chance to improve their present project to a more sophisticated project. 7-8 years ago, Turkey was not able to bid an upgrade offer like this, what is happening after 10 year?

Do you read this:
"-- Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets,
-- Integration to the existing and new generation battle space command control systems (C4ISR)" from the website of Aselsan. Is the Leo-2A6 and the Leo-1A5 also able to do this? The British Challenger 2 is able to do this and can hit a football at 5 kilometers. Izz it good???

With long range detection/recognition/identification than if you are in the gunner position in the Volkanized Leo-1, you are also able to see and recognize your mama's face at a couple of kilometers not?

After implementing the Sabra tech, I want to know what tank is next to improve.

 

[Waylander]

No, I've not seen it.

I do not even know what this exactly is: "Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets"

How does it works. And what does it precisely shows you?

As for the battlefield management system.
Rheinmetall and KMW offer this in their package for new Leopard II A5/A6. Strv122 as well as Leopard IIE and HEL all have a battlefield magament system but it is not implemented into German Leopard IIs (The money problem ).

The Leo 1A5 does not have a battlefield management system because of this I wrote that you have to add this after buying them.

 

[Soner1980]

I don't understand why the werhmacht not install battle management system to their modern MBT's, for the money you got a good system in your tank that maybe enhences the effectiveness of your units. Ok, if the German government has decided to cut off money from the defensive budged, it is not the problem that Germany does not have money, Germany want to spend their money on other things.

The "Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets" means that the thermal imager is of a very high resolution, that's why a make the joke that you are able to recognize your mother at a distance of several kilometers when you look at it. The Leo-1 Volkan is able to recognize a tank from 4 km and if the tank is friendly or not, what type and even more detailed picture of the tank. But the Leo-2A5/A6 does have this feature too I think.

The price of nearly a million $ for the upgrade is because of the battle management system I think or else it was maybe a couple of tons of dollars. The thermal imager is also expensive I think.

 

[beleg]

Not that cheap.
You have to take into account that you would get Leo 1A5 for nearly nothing (Just the steel price and transportation costs).
Add a battlefield management system and a MG which can be fired under armor protection and you would nearly have the same tank. Just the auto tracker would not be implemented.
But I agree that this would not be good for your economy so in the end the Volkan upgrade might still be the better decision.

Dear waylandar,

Its not cheap yes, when you compare it to Leo2A4s we bought you can argue its even expensive.
Eagle Eye is an R&D project of Aselsan and you must see it as a step in the Turkish MBT FCS.. Ofcourse this R&D had a cost but it will eventually pay off when we use it.. We are late to invest in defence industry, but we say in Turkey "Better late then never."

 

[Waylander]

Because of that I said that it might be a good decision even if it is not cheap.

And another important thing.
It is the Bundeswehr nowadays and not the Wehrmacht. The Wehrmacht died together with the third Reich!
This is really important because the Wehrmacht is not part of our official military tradition.

The implemention of a battlefield management system into our Leos is planned but as often it is planned for the next year and next year it is planned for a year later...
There are some battlefield management systems implemented in our newer vehicles like Puma, Fennek, scout Wiesel 2, etc.

 

[Soner1980]

Hey, I'm sorry for the name Wehrmacht for the German army. But it was the only name that I will always remember because of the movies I like to see. Yes WWII movies especially German WWII movies like Stalingrad I like it much. Then the Wehrmacht just stuck in my dusty brains.

Ok, I call after now the Bundeswehr.

Beleg is also right, because the R&D is done, money is invested, now the local defensive industries must be given a chance no matter how expensive it is to improve their product, built a better device after some years later. Later the price will be drop down and then the production of new systems will be more easily accepted by the Türk Silahli Kuvvetleri (Turkish Armed Forces). With the 1,7 mln Sabra upgrade, to the 0,987 mln Volkan upgrade, later the 0,500 other upgrade. And for 2-3 million there can be built a battle tank for our army I hope. If you look to the cancelled Indian tank project, it was to expensive. What a mess! Respect to the Indians but they have made many faulty steps to advance. We take them as an example and we will not do the same fault as the Indians I hope.

 

[Waylander]

2-3 millions seems a little bit too optimistic for me even if you buy large quantities.
A greece Leopard IIHEL is now ca. at 7,5 million €. This includes simulators, technical support, etc. But it is still far away from 2-3 mill.

Turkey has one large +.
They are one of the few countries which are ordering reltively large numbers only for themselfes while most western european countries have to hope for foreign customers to keep the costs low due to their low smaller armed forces.

 

[eckherl]

It is not only to getting cheap tanks with nearly the same quality, but giving the defensive industry a chance to improve their present project to a more sophisticated project. 7-8 years ago, Turkey was not able to bid an upgrade offer like this, what is happening after 10 year?

Do you read this:
"-- Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets,
-- Integration to the existing and new generation battle space command control systems (C4ISR)" from the website of Aselsan. Is the Leo-2A6 and the Leo-1A5 also able to do this? The British Challenger 2 is able to do this and can hit a football at 5 kilometers. Izz it good???

With long range detection/recognition/identification than if you are in the gunner position in the Volkanized Leo-1, you are also able to see and recognize your mama's face at a couple of kilometers not?

After implementing the Sabra tech, I want to know what tank is next to improve.

You have my attention, please elaborate a little more on this.

 

[atilla]

silly???

why is this silly cabinet of us not working with the US Army to invade Iraq? We were prepared (US & Turkish army) to fight together in Iraq ???????*?




you saıd ???? ı dont lıke thıs cabınet also but that was theır best desıcıon whıch was made ın 3 years of theır governıng and may be one of the most spectacular moments of mustafa kemals state

we have no busıness ın others wars and we wıll not fıgth others wars even they brıng our embasadors body whıth 100 shıps ın 1946

we are lıvıng ın today not ın 1946

and ıf you are that much ready and ıntrested to help US Army ın IRAQ ı m sure some people can help u here then u can serve for US army still talkın about russıan danger ırans danger thıs that bla bla ıt doesnt make sense anymore ın turkey pls fınd out other new dangers DD

AS mustafa kemal saıd once peace ın our lands peace ın world from thıs word ı thınk cabınet dıd good thıng not to enter that mess

 

[Soner1980]

Atilla, I understand your way of talk. But if war is unstopable, then you can go in war with US army to the north of Iraq only. Now Turkey have to fight against the US army to enter northern part of Iraq to eradicate some PKK terrorists. That is the reason why they are not thinking broader than 2003. If they were entered together with the US army, then we had some problems with neighboring countries, but still entering Iraq or not, in Istanbul Al Qaeda also struck us in our hearth when two bombs were exploded. This is a really shitty dillema, whetever you do, the PKK and Al Qaeda is doing their job now and our 'Red lines' has been wiped of, PKK is killing innocent people again with ex-Iraqi army C-4 and mines on the road.

We have no business in others war, true. It's really true. But Iraq is our neighbor. So, we have to pay for a war who is in our neighboring country, entered or not.

 

[Soner1980]

The 7,5mln euro is for a western technology based MBT with support, simulators, etc. But Russian tanks are often much cheaper than NATO MBT's. Greek Cypriots have also T-80 U's bought from Russia with a price of 2,7 mln each tank. But in what conditions, used tanks ornot I don't know. Maybe used and without support but this is far away of reality i guess.

Also NATO vehicles are technologically better than the Russian MBT's but Russian vehicles seems more robust and mechanically more reliable I hear from my uncle who used russian vehicles in Azerbaijani army when he was there for 6 month. Also, I newer bought hundreds of tanks because I don't have a big backyard. But someday when I am 65 and retired I will buy some 350 MBT's and then I know the real price. nfloorl: (joke)

2-3 millions seems a little bit too optimistic for me even if you buy large quantities.
A greece Leopard IIHEL is now ca. at 7,5 million €. This includes simulators, technical support, etc. But it is still far away from 2-3 mill.

Turkey has one large +.
They are one of the few countries which are ordering reltively large numbers only for themselfes while most western european countries have to hope for foreign customers to keep the costs low due to their low smaller armed forces.

 

[Soner1980]

This is what I think what is going to happen (I hope) that after the Sabra upgrade, Turkish firms will find for better improvements. For sure, after the Sabra improvement Turkish firms have enough information gathered from all the projects that Turkey is almost capable of building a locally designed MBT with todays standards.

One thing is still on the way: Composite armor plating technology. But Pakistani officials have reported that they are ready to sell the technology to Turkey what will be used in the project for the Turkish national tank project. It is rumored that the same armor used in the Al Khaled MBT will be transfered to Turkey but this has been never confirmed.

You have my attention, please elaborate a little more on this.

Originally Posted by Soner1980
It is not only to getting cheap tanks with nearly the same quality, but giving the defensive industry a chance to improve their present project to a more sophisticated project. 7-8 years ago, Turkey was not able to bid an upgrade offer like this, what is happening after 10 year?

Do you read this:
"-- Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets,
-- Integration to the existing and new generation battle space command control systems (C4ISR)" from the website of Aselsan. Is the Leo-2A6 and the Leo-1A5 also able to do this? The British Challenger 2 is able to do this and can hit a football at 5 kilometers. Izz it good???

With long range detection/recognition/identification than if you are in the gunner position in the Volkanized Leo-1, you are also able to see and recognize your mama's face at a couple of kilometers not?

After implementing the Sabra tech, I want to know what tank is next to improve.

 

[Waylander]

As long as it comes to T-72 they are for sure not more robust than their western counterparts.
My father served on T-72 and T-55 and they had the same problems and brakedowns like I had with Leo II.

 

[Soner1980]

Are you from the former east Germany? The T-72 is 30 years old tank and they are now not so well in their mechanics anymore. The Leo-II, what kind of problems are there? The Leo-II is also more than 20 years old now but they are still built and I think many problems are worked out comparing to the 1980's and 1990's or even present production.

 

[Waylander]

Jup. I'm a former commie.
But when I joined the army we were already united and so I joined the Bundeswehr.
But my father served in the east german army (NVA).

The Leo has no big problems just the normal things.
Some broken engines, FCSs, turret hydraulics, TIs, etc.
Just the normal things which occur on armored vehicles during and after some weeks of training and live fire exercises.
Plus the normal maintenance on the engine, tracks, chassis...
Not much more and not much less than I know from units with Challi 2, Abrams, T-72, etc.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes it's normal. For countries that want a tank without problems on electronics, other advanced systems, they have to use the tanks of the WWII because there is nothing to malfunction and everything is fixed with your screwdriver nfloorl:

It's different for me because I have never spoken East German people before. I have family in Köln and Duisburg. I live in Holland near Amsterdam (Turkish origin). My brother joined the Dutch army National Reserve and sometimes they met German soldiers too.

But the Sabra does also have things from the M60A1 wich will malfunction too. Like the Leo-II or Abrams, there will be always small things that will occur, also on the battlefield. Turkish tanks always have 'flintstone-technology' as a backup when systems fail. So, you are always operational. Also Morse telegraph systems are still used in Turkish army when the whole network is out of the air.

 

[Waylander]

I understand the need for backup systems. There are many redundant systems on any tank and in any good army.
But morse telegraphs? :unknown
Isn't this a little bit too much backup?