Yep - it`s all the same.Jup. I'm a former commie.
But when I joined the army we were already united and so I joined the Bundeswehr.
But my father served in the east german army (NVA).
The Leo has no big problems just the normal things.
Some broken engines, FCSs, turret hydraulics, TIs, etc.
Just the normal things which occur on armored vehicles during and after some weeks of training and live fire exercises.
Plus the normal maintenance on the engine, tracks, chassis...
Not much more and not much less than I know from units with Challi 2, Abrams, T-72, etc.
Turkish M60A1 upgrade
- Thread starter swerve
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Hey - it is better than smoke signals.Yes it's normal. For countries that want a tank without problems on electronics, other advanced systems, they have to use the tanks of the WWII because there is nothing to malfunction
It's different for me because I have never spoken East German people before. I have family in Köln and Duisburg. I live in Holland near Amsterdam (Turkish origin). My brother joined the Dutch army National Reserve and sometimes they met German soldiers too.
But the Sabra does also have things from the M60A1 wich will malfunction too. Like the Leo-II or Abrams, there will be always small things that will occur, also on the battlefield. Turkish tanks always have 'flintstone-technology' as a backup when systems fail. So, you are always operational. Also Morse telegraph systems are still used in Turkish army when the whole network is out of the air.
nfloorl:Yes I was also nfloorl: -'ing when my uncle said to me that there are still Morse telegraph systems used in Turkish army for backup. This system is so reliable that you can't cut the dialog off with electronic warfare, but with a scissors only .
All electronics can be disabled with a electro magnetic pulse (also atomic bombs) or with a jammer. The Morse can be jammed only by a jam for your bread: .
Joking is funny. But such backups can save your units asses in the battlefield. High tech is great and very easy but if it doesn't work, you need a good backup. Flares (Eckherl) are good but the enemy also see your signal.
But some tanks are invulnerable to ECM. According to a newspaper, I don't remember wich one it was, when the first Turkish tank tender in 2000 was run, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and the T-84 in trials were often attacked by French sattelites with electronic jammers. So, only the Leo-2A6 and the Leclerc was invulnerable to this kind of attack and others all systems failed to accomplish their targets. I don't know what happened after this. If this is true, I hope that the Sabra upgrade will fix this gap and also for the Volkan too
nfloorl: -'ing when my uncle said to me that there are still Morse telegraph systems used in Turkish army for backup. This system is so reliable that you can't cut the dialog off with electronic warfare, but with a scissors only .All electronics can be disabled with a electro magnetic pulse (also atomic bombs) or with a jammer. The Morse can be jammed only by a jam for your bread
: .Joking is funny. But such backups can save your units asses in the battlefield. High tech is great and very easy but if it doesn't work, you need a good backup. Flares (Eckherl) are good but the enemy also see your signal.
But some tanks are invulnerable to ECM. According to a newspaper, I don't remember wich one it was, when the first Turkish tank tender in 2000 was run, the Leopard-2A6, M1A2, Leclerc and the T-84 in trials were often attacked by French sattelites with electronic jammers. So, only the Leo-2A6 and the Leclerc was invulnerable to this kind of attack and others all systems failed to accomplish their targets. I don't know what happened after this. If this is true, I hope that the Sabra upgrade will fix this gap and also for the Volkan too
Yes, that's why I wrote you need a scissors to cut off the connection. When bombed or destroyed it will stop but it can also be listened when you tap off the wire. So you can do more than only destroy the connection.
I also prefer to use messenger-pigeon so, no kind of anti electronics can disturb your communication. (Joke)
But does the Leo-2 have system to withstand against such electronic warfare?
I also prefer to use messenger-pigeon
so, no kind of anti electronics can disturb your communication. (Joke)But does the Leo-2 have system to withstand against such electronic warfare?
The Leo-2A6 and Leclerc can withstand to this kind of attack. I hope the Sabra too or else? Who has such weapons that botters Turkey? Iran? I think it is not a big problem yet. Btw, if your ballistic computer is malfunctional or disabled by enemy fire, you can keep firing the gun but you have to do the calculations by your self not? It is said that the L44 (120mm Leo-2A4/A5) have a battlefield range of 1500m and after that the projectile begin to drop because of the gravity. So for 2000m enemy MBT, you have to aim a little bit above the tank. Can you fire the main gun effectively in this kind of situations?
There are some kinds of emergency fire operations if the FCS is broken.
You have a cross-hair in your optic which not only consists of a simple cross but some additional lines.
The gunner knows by using these lines how far away a target ca. is.
For example when the front of an enemy MBT is 4 bars wide in his optic he knows from tabelles how far away this is. There are charts for MBTs, IFVs, etc.
Then he manually enters the distance into the system. The gun elevates into the right direction and he can fire with cross-hair directly on target.
If the gunners knows his charts this is a fast way.
If the gunner is good and experienced enough you can also just enter 1000m into the system and fire by feeling. This is not official but especially used during close combat because it is a little bit faster and this little timeframe could be critical.
Hitting moving targets is just a matter of training and a good feeling for the gun.
Fore example during one live fire exercise two of our three tanks had laser malfunctions but anyhow 27 of 31 rounds where hits.
There was for sure some luck in it but it is not impossible to have adequate results without FCS.
The biggest problem is that you loose the ability to fire from the move.
You have a cross-hair in your optic which not only consists of a simple cross but some additional lines.
The gunner knows by using these lines how far away a target ca. is.
For example when the front of an enemy MBT is 4 bars wide in his optic he knows from tabelles how far away this is. There are charts for MBTs, IFVs, etc.
Then he manually enters the distance into the system. The gun elevates into the right direction and he can fire with cross-hair directly on target.
If the gunners knows his charts this is a fast way.
If the gunner is good and experienced enough you can also just enter 1000m into the system and fire by feeling. This is not official but especially used during close combat because it is a little bit faster and this little timeframe could be critical.
Hitting moving targets is just a matter of training and a good feeling for the gun.
Fore example during one live fire exercise two of our three tanks had laser malfunctions but anyhow 27 of 31 rounds where hits.
There was for sure some luck in it but it is not impossible to have adequate results without FCS.
The biggest problem is that you loose the ability to fire from the move.
I know this kind of aiming. The crosshairs and the extra lines are called 'Stadia' lines. Russian tanks used Stadiametric range finder in it's tanks till the T-80 came in service. The T-64 is believed to have a stereoscopic (doule lensed sight) range finder.
The stadia lines are also used in sniper rifles but this is a different story (also working the same). You described that you can enter the range with your hand to the system but when if this also shows '8888' on your display? Than you have to use your own calculations plus estimate the super elevation. I have read a story that NATO tankers were so experienced with a M48A3 with a 1960's state of the art fire control system.
Text from www.fas.org
"A good crew in Europe was able to put the first round on target 90% of the time, but this required excellent teamwork and communication on the part of the entire crew. In peacetime qualification, it was possible to stop from a speed of 20 mph, acquire the target, and get off a first round kill at 2,000 yards in seven seconds."
So, was this able with a Leo-2? I think that today it is faster because of the technology, but when malfunction occur, then you can not do this in 7 seconds anymore.
The stadia lines are also used in sniper rifles but this is a different story (also working the same). You described that you can enter the range with your hand to the system but when if this also shows '8888' on your display? Than you have to use your own calculations plus estimate the super elevation. I have read a story that NATO tankers were so experienced with a M48A3 with a 1960's state of the art fire control system.
Text from www.fas.org
"A good crew in Europe was able to put the first round on target 90% of the time, but this required excellent teamwork and communication on the part of the entire crew. In peacetime qualification, it was possible to stop from a speed of 20 mph, acquire the target, and get off a first round kill at 2,000 yards in seven seconds."
So, was this able with a Leo-2? I think that today it is faster because of the technology, but when malfunction occur, then you can not do this in 7 seconds anymore.
You mean when the turret is totally down?
You have crank handles and can use them if the turret is down. Bit this is slow and the driver should help the gunner as much as he can by turning the vehicle into the enemies direction. On the cranks there is also an emergency fire button. If this is also not funktioning due to some electrical problems you have a last chance with a big emergency fire button at the barrel which is connected directly to the batteries. If this also doesn't work pray.
Shooting is than done like with a rifle. Estimate the range and fire. If the first round doesn't hit you just correct the next round into the right direction.
A problem could be if it is very dusty or the smoky. Than you might not be able to se your own round and have to count on another tank doing the fire correction.
You have crank handles and can use them if the turret is down. Bit this is slow and the driver should help the gunner as much as he can by turning the vehicle into the enemies direction. On the cranks there is also an emergency fire button. If this is also not funktioning due to some electrical problems you have a last chance with a big emergency fire button at the barrel which is connected directly to the batteries. If this also doesn't work pray.
Shooting is than done like with a rifle. Estimate the range and fire. If the first round doesn't hit you just correct the next round into the right direction.
A problem could be if it is very dusty or the smoky. Than you might not be able to se your own round and have to count on another tank doing the fire correction.
No if you have no laser range finder, no computer elevating the barrel to a direction, like firing on the M48 what I typed below, is it possible to fire the gun without the computer and rangefinder in a leo-2? Manual firing to 3000 meters is possible I think. You just aim the gun higher than the enemy tank is. Just like WWII tankwarfare.
Maybe we missunderstand each other.
The manual input by rotating the button has nothing to do with the fire control system.
It is nearly the same procedure like in the M48. At least an older reserve staff seargent who trained with us told me that.
The manual input by rotating the button has nothing to do with the fire control system.
It is nearly the same procedure like in the M48. At least an older reserve staff seargent who trained with us told me that.
Ok, but if you turn the turret, the barrel will correct because the computer is thinking the target is moving. Therefore I tought to say that if you turn the ballistic computer off it is like older tanks aim and shoot and if the target is too far, aim slightly higher so the projectile can hit the target. So you can train yourself when systems are down, and hitting a target in 7 second without systems is very good. Today is 3-4 second the time you must reach also on the move. after 7 seconds you have to see the smoke and fire of the enemy not?
Ok, it is not a problem. Do you know that we are very off-toppic???
But there is also nothing special anymore about the Zabra tank to tell. It's just a fat M60 with more modern systems on it and a bigger barrel. I want to see it in action, ofcourse this can be seen in action only against the PKK, not in big clashes.
Ok, it is not a problem. Do you know that we are very off-toppic???
But there is also nothing special anymore about the Zabra tank to tell. It's just a fat M60 with more modern systems on it and a bigger barrel. I want to see it in action, ofcourse this can be seen in action only against the PKK, not in big clashes.
No me neither. Turkish tanks fighting the PKK is nothing. Also, their RPG-7 is considered too weak to destroy even a M48. Also in Vietnam war a RPG-7 could not destroy a M48. The armor was not just steel but it was worked out that the RPG-7 could be redirected to another direction. Spall liners to help injuries. This is also written in fas.org and never M48's destroyed by PKK fire.
Turkey also put their M47's in use. Comming back to Sabra, only serious enemy is another tank or infantry with guided missile or air power. Do you know from what material the armor plater are made of the Sabra?
Turkey also put their M47's in use. Comming back to Sabra, only serious enemy is another tank or infantry with guided missile or air power. Do you know from what material the armor plater are made of the Sabra?
Yes but why the extra ERA on it? Ok the Abrams are receiving reactive armor too but thats different reason in Iraq because of the roadside bombs. But for roadside bombs, you can also use it for jet dropped bomb also I think.
When I was 14 years old, I saw a Turkish military excercise. A F-4 dropped a bomb above a M48 tank and the whole tank spatted away. You saw only the hull with a turret blast open. I'm happy that I am behind a PC and not in that tank. A Hillfire missle does not blow like that. But Hellfire burns the entire tank I think instead to blast till the turret rips open.
So, the composite armor is not alway a good protection against HE material I guess. Reinforcing with ERA is not optional anymore today.
When I was 14 years old, I saw a Turkish military excercise. A F-4 dropped a bomb above a M48 tank and the whole tank spatted away. You saw only the hull with a turret blast open. I'm happy that I am behind a PC and not in that tank. A Hillfire missle does not blow like that. But Hellfire burns the entire tank I think instead to blast till the turret rips open.
So, the composite armor is not alway a good protection against HE material I guess. Reinforcing with ERA is not optional anymore today.