Turkish M60A1 upgrade

[beleg]

For Gods sake please, We neither have the buıdget or need for 4000 Sabras. We dont even have that many platforms to make so many tanks.

All these tank modernisation projects are ;

1 - Gap fillers until the new Turkish tank is designed and ready,
2 - They are technology steps to learn how to make some parts of the tank (FCS, barrel & ammunition, design & engineering knowhow etc).

If you look at the cancelled tanktender of 2000 you will see that the number of MBTs to be bought were 1000 which was the number necessary to replace WHOLE tank fleet.

The new tank tender first phase asks for 250 tanks to be designed and built by Turkish industry with limited foreign assistance. The prototype tanks are supposed to be ready by 2011.

Until the tanks are produced we will have 298 Leo2A4s , 170 sabras ,160 Leo I Volkans.. I personally expect that LeoIA3s might go a similar modernisation program which would add another 150 tough and all waether day & night battle capable tank to the tank force. This number supported by 600+ M60A3s should be enough to do the job.

Currently only the M48-A5T2s which are in same level with M60A3 are in the service (700+). The older ones are already in the reserve/scrapped.

 

[atilla]

whıch tank wıll be more efectıff t serıes agaınst m1 or abrahams ?? or upgraded whıch ıs usıng du ammos nıght and day cabelılted sabras??Iran doesnt have abılty to hunt 4000 tanks whıth helos and aır crafts or do they have ???? upgraded m60 s ıs perfect for to stop any armed dıvısıon tryıng to attack turkey from slıghty mountınes areas sabra ıs a realy good tank ın turkısh soil ın terms of defense attached sabras atılgan and zıpkıns could gıve turkısh armed dıvısıons good protectıon even they dont have aır power support so IRAN has cabalıty to hunt turkısh aır force ???? so easıly???? that armed dıvıons ıs thınkıng new concepts. we have to be realıstıc ENGLAND and ottoman empıre was realy good allıes before WW1 but thıngs has chanced

and turkey has a budget to upgrade 4000 m60 and even to land more 4000 mbt60 rıght now ıf turkey wants could develop ıts own tank 100 percent turkısh made ın 4 weeks because all economıc condıtıons and knowled ıs avaılable

 

[Waylander]

If it would be that easy to develop a state of the art MBT they would have done it already.
BTW, your post is really hard to understand.

 

[beleg]

attilla it takes more than 4 weeks to design and produce a t-shirt.

even if we had budget for modernising 4000 sabras (1,7 million$ X 4000) we dont have that many M60s.. So please just cool down and be realistic.

 

[Soner1980]

2000 Sabra's was my idea, but it was an example. What if you have a Sabra Tank army? That was my question.

That others may benefit of my question to upgrade your whole tank fleet to the Sabra standard, is very absurd. Too expensive and not a smart idea at all.

Like beleg said before. The 170 Sabra's and Leo-2A4's are all gap fillers till 2015 when we have enough modern MBT's produced at home to phase the others out or to put a small amount in reserve. Like some Sabra's and Leo-2A4. The other Leo-1 series and M48's can be used as training tanks, converted to rear area support vehicles/engineering vehicles or even to use it like a (remote controlled) target tank.

Turkey does not need thousands of tanks anymore because of the Red Army does not excist anymore. But the rumors indicate a new Russian opponent will be reborn after Putin's talk that the Russian army will increase it's defensive budget with some 20% per year. By that day, we all have better equipment or will be taken further steps to encounter that (again) or put your reserves until you have bought/produced new tanks.

 

[Soner1980]

Thanks for your respect. Here is a big example of American respect to Turkey: in 1946 the Turkish embassy was found dead in his office, I'm not sure why. The US navy brought the body with a Turkish flag to Turkey on a big Battleship. This is respect and I feel brothership. But thinking back to the year 2003, why is this silly cabinet of us not working with the US Army to invade Iraq? We were prepared (US & Turkish army) to fight together in Iraq. Tell our minister president for his amateur politics why!

What I am saying is that I have a lot of respect for the Turkish army and their capabilities on the battlefield. Iam happy that they are our allies.

 

[Waylander]

My opinion is that before you upgrade more M60s you should upgrade your Leo 2A4.
This would give you a tank which is also able of conducting an attack if necessary and would be the best tank for counterattacks in case of defense.

 

[beleg]

Waylander , i think somewhere in the future Leo2A4s will be modernised, however they are still being delivered, and we dont know the ocnditions of the purchase, i am not sure if Turkey is interested in a modernisation program which is handled by Germany, especially after the succesfull Volkan series modernisation & Turkish MBT project..

The KMW representative at IDEF2005 had told me that they might be willing to work together with Turkish industry (who wouldnt want a piece of this cake) , so they probably must have forced their (your) government to put a condition on modernisation.

 

[Soner1980]

Another option to increase the capabilities of the Turkish army. But I suggest to improve both tanks on the same time. But more Sabra's, more than 300 I don't think it's necessary because of the money you spend it (1,7 mln $ per each) or to pump that money to the R&D program of a new tank. A new Russian T-80 is now 2,5 mln $ if you buy 350 T-80's.

The Sabra is a good tech transfer and have the tech to use it for a while till the tech transfer is re-used to upgrade the tech in a lab. The Leopard-2A4 upgrading to a Leopard-2A6 standard would be a good choice for the Turkish army. But there was an offer from ASELSAN to improve it to almost Leo-2A6 (See pic) but without the armor. But I don't know of the deal may allow it. But why Germany does not come with a modernization plan for a Leopard-1A3 and M60 series tanks to us? The German 'wehrtechnik' is known to produce one of the best tanks in the world since the WW II.

 

[Waylander]

No offers for Leo 1 modernization?
Are you sure?
Would be very surprising for me.
Ok in the end you could get our Leo 1A5 for free.

The photo does not really looks like A6 standard (Not to talk of Strv122 or E/HEL standard). It looks more like an A4 with a L55 and a new commanders periscope.

 

[Soner1980]

Yes is a A4 but with a new thermal imager (Kartalgözü) and a new long barrel 120mm gun. I had showed you a time ago do you remember?

Then you said to me that the sight system was placed on the roof and not in the right front. A Leo-2A6 with A4 armor.

The Leo-1's are all modernized in Turkey by Turkey.

 

[Waylander]

Ah yes, I remember.
I was not sure about it but it looked familiar to me.

How are the Leo 1s going to be modernized?

 

[Soner1980]

The Leo-1A3's have got a T1 name wich they are modernized to a more modern state than the original A3, a new ballictic computer and wind sensors, new commanders viewer etc. and the ability to fire the roof MG 'under armor'. The A3T1 is known to have a image intensiefier produced by ASELSAN or the original EMES, I'm not sure.

The Leo-1A1/A1 is getting the Volkan upgrade and can function like the Leo-2A4 with thermal imager, ASELSAN radio, new laser range finder, etc. Leo-1 with 3rd generation MBT capabilities.

There are rumors that a Volkan 2 upgrade will be available soon.

 

[Waylander]

Wouldn't it have been cheaper to take our old Leo 1A5 for free?
Seems like a very similar upgrade.

 

[beleg]

Eagleeye 1 FCS

It gives the Leo1 day & night all wather fighting capability with line of sight stabilizor.

http://gallery.koroshiya.net/albums/IDEF2005/IDEF200542.sized.jpg

http://gallery.koroshiya.net/albums/IDEF2005/IDEF200540.sized.jpg

 

[Soner1980]

The Volkan upgrade is much better than the A5 version. The Volkan upgrade gives the Leo-1 the same capabilities of a 3rd generation tank like the Leclerc or even a M1A2 or Leopard-2A6. But with lesser armor and destructive power because of it's 105mm gun. But with DU ammo, also a serious threat, not?

 

[Waylander]

Much better?
The only significant superioity is the ability to fire the MG under armor protection. Does the commander has a TI for his periscope or is it day channel only like on the A5?
The Leo 1A5 has the same FCS like the Leopard IIA4 which is not much inferior to the one in Leo II A5 upwards. It has a new thermal imager and the EMES 18 and also has some improved armor protection.

Is the superiority this big that it is worth the money?

 

[Soner1980]

It has all the capabilities of a A5. The Volkan also adds a thermal imager. The capability of a 3rd generation tank is like the capability of a Leo-2A6. What I wrote, the Leo-1 Volkan is the same as a Leo-2A6 with (much) lesser armor and lesser destructive power because of it's 105mm gun.

You look at this page, very good: http://www.aselsan.com/urun.asp?urun_id=79

It gives you professional information about ASELSAN, you can also see other projects like the M113 APC converted to a mobile Stinger SAM vehicle. Other upgrades to MBT's etc..

 

[Waylander]

I know what you want to say.
But my question is not if the Volkan upgrade is better but is it this better.
How much does the government paid for this upgrade?

 

[Soner1980]

Volkan Fire Control System.

Text courtesy of ASELSAN:

VOLKAN Fire Control System developed by ASELSAN significantly improves the fire control capability of Leopard 1 Main Battle Tanks (MBTs).

21st century combat conditions require the ageing Leopard 1 to be upgraded as a new generation war machine, with enhanced fire control capability compatible to the 3rd generation MBTs.

With its contemporary software and hardware integrated capability, VOLKAN Fire Control System provides Leopard 1 MBTs; High First Round Hit Probability, day/night in future combat environment, even in total darkness.

With its modular and flexible structure, VOLKAN also provides enhanced integration baseline on to the other MBTs and similar weapon systems/platforms.



General Specifications
- Two-axis Gun Stabilization,
- Automatic Target Tracking
- Fire Control/Ballistic Computer,
- 2nd Generation High Resolution Thermal Camera,
- Driver’s Night Sight Periscope,
- North Finding and Self-Positioning System,
- Battlefield Command Control Information System,
- Open System Architecture for Future Improvements and new ammunition Types Provides the following capabilities:

-- High first round hit probability
-- Day and night combat capability,
-- On-the-move Firings to the moving targets,
-- Long range identification/recognition/detection of targets,
-- Integration to the existing and new generation battle space command control systems (C4ISR)

SYSTEM UNITS

- Gunner's Periscope System
- Commander's Control Display
- Muzzle Reference System
- Fire Control System Command Unit
- Fire Control Computer
- Ammunition Selection Unit
- Inclinometer
- Meteorological and Ammunition Temperature Sensor
- Turret Azimuth / Gun Elevation Position Encoders
- North Finding And Self-Positioning System
- Power Distribution Unit
- Gunner’s Additional Command Unit
- Gunner’s And Commander’s Handles
- Driver’s Night Sight Periscope