Yes - my country has caused some problems in Iraq, we should of looked long term over there, Iran is just sitting back with a big smile on her face. And if you see who the Russians are making alliances with over there that will not be good either.
Turkish M60A1 upgrade
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I see that many Americans and Turkish people are friends last times, Americans eating Turkish Delight (Lokum) and in Turkey we know about the Thanksgiving. Yes this year I am also in California when it is thanksgiving...
I think that the old times are getting back. That US-Turkish relation will improve to its best hights. Also, that Turkey is getting close to the JSF project, the relations with EU is getting worser and with the US is getting better. If I look to the Turkish army, it is the best in the region. Iran has a large army, but they are mostly obsolete. Only small amounts are high tech. But about Iran saying that Israel must be wiped of of the globe is for sure not a smart idea to say. Because you put your hostilities on the table. Now Israel will ai it's long range missiles to Iran to counter in case of problems.
Getting back to the toppic.... Is there a need to modernize the all existing M60's (some 1000 pieces) to the Sabra configuration or look a like configuration? Maybe the M48's too???What to do with 2000 M60&M48 tanks with Sabra package? Is it good useful in the eastern front?
I think that the old times are getting back. That US-Turkish relation will improve to its best hights. Also, that Turkey is getting close to the JSF project, the relations with EU is getting worser and with the US is getting better. If I look to the Turkish army, it is the best in the region. Iran has a large army, but they are mostly obsolete. Only small amounts are high tech. But about Iran saying that Israel must be wiped of of the globe is for sure not a smart idea to say. Because you put your hostilities on the table. Now Israel will ai it's long range missiles to Iran to counter in case of problems.
Getting back to the toppic.... Is there a need to modernize the all existing M60's (some 1000 pieces) to the Sabra configuration or look a like configuration? Maybe the M48's too???What to do with 2000 M60&M48 tanks with Sabra package? Is it good useful in the eastern front?
Yes, it is better to scrap them, convert them to a remote controlled bomb demolition vehicle or to a bridgelayer or something. Or at least, change the turret to a winch or crane to lift heavy material. Or else use it as a target tank or basic trainer like the F-5's are pre-F-16 trainers. The Dutch army is still using Leopard-1 tanks for recruits and when finished the army school, they go to the Leo-2.
Turkey needs somewhat 170 Sabra's to close the gap together with the Leo-2A4's for a 10 year period. Turkey is working to produce it's indigenous MBT, combat helicopter co-production with Agusta or with Denel. There are rumors that 20 Apache heli's will be bought to use till the first batch will be delivered over 3 years. The tanks are produced by 4 companies in Turkey and the tech transfer is already done by Israel, USA, Pakistan and some EU countries I think.
Turkey needs somewhat 170 Sabra's to close the gap together with the Leo-2A4's for a 10 year period. Turkey is working to produce it's indigenous MBT, combat helicopter co-production with Agusta or with Denel. There are rumors that 20 Apache heli's will be bought to use till the first batch will be delivered over 3 years. The tanks are produced by 4 companies in Turkey and the tech transfer is already done by Israel, USA, Pakistan and some EU countries I think.
I agree - but instead of sending them to the bone yard, donate them to Lebanon.
Also a good Idea. But I was thinking to give them away to Azerbaijan or other Turkish countries. But what I have read, it was not good to give away weapons because of the proliferation (or something). If the M60's and M48's are bought with the FMS from the US, then Turkey is the End-User of it, like windows licence agreement you know, the end user is that you are not allowed to sell them to others.
For how concerned the U.S is right now with the stability of the Lebaneese government, they just might make an exception.
The 274 of the all ex-USMC M60A1's should be modernized to this Sabra standard, the M60A3 is also going well today, only the armor is weak by todays standards. The rest of the M48's must be phased out. Replaced by newer ones.
The Sabra can be effectively used for another 10 year not?
The Sabra can be effectively used for another 10 year not?
For defensive capibilities in that regoin - yes, as far as the M60A3 goes, it actually has a better Thermal sighting system than a early M1A1, that is my opinion only, but that is not the case for the M1A1 heavy or M1A2. with the 105mm that is installed on the M60A3 if you were to use M833 or M900 DU kinetic energy penetrators you will have a fighting chance with anything that Iran tries to throw at you at the present time, If you lock horns with the likes of a LEO2A5 or A6 you will have to let them get real close, ie: 1200meters or closer. If you are not in a ambush position that will be bad news if coming across LEO`s. P.S: go for the flank shots.
One Iranian high ranked officer wrote a year ago that the Tank is out of time and that it is time for APC or IFV because of the infantry it can carry. I'm not with this speak of the Iranian officer but this mean that tanks are not the No. 1 anymore in Iranian forces. Turkey also does not have a priority in MBT's because of the threat of gunships or fixed wing aircraft bombing them from above.
The M60A3 has one of the best thermal sights ever time produced but it was a huge system. The Sabra will have some equal system I hope but much smaller and simple designed. The M60A3 (or even M48A5) with it's 105mm gun, it is very good to fight T-72's in battle. Also the 120mm CTG from the Sabra can be mounted on a M60 without much work on the turret. It's told that the barrel is almost the same in the diameter ??? (is this true) and therefore easily fit to the original turret of the M60A3. Then it can also fit to the M48 I think??? When a big war breaks ou (I hope not) Then I'm sure Turkey will use it's WWII era tanks to Iran too
The M60A3 has one of the best thermal sights ever time produced but it was a huge system. The Sabra will have some equal system I hope but much smaller and simple designed. The M60A3 (or even M48A5) with it's 105mm gun, it is very good to fight T-72's in battle. Also the 120mm CTG from the Sabra can be mounted on a M60 without much work on the turret. It's told that the barrel is almost the same in the diameter ??? (is this true) and therefore easily fit to the original turret of the M60A3. Then it can also fit to the M48 I think??? When a big war breaks ou (I hope not) Then I'm sure Turkey will use it's WWII era tanks to Iran too
The barrel diameter is a little bigger but not by much, you would be pressing the issue sticking the 120mm inside of a M48 though. Either way the 105mm if used properly and with the right ammunition will be deadly on the battlefield.One Iranian high ranked officer wrote a year ago that the Tank is out of time and that it is time for APC or IFV because of the infantry it can carry. I'm not with this speak of the Iranian officer but this mean that tanks are not the No. 1 anymore in Iranian forces. Turkey also does not have a priority in MBT's because of the threat of gunships or fixed wing aircraft bombing them from above.
The M60A3 has one of the best thermal sights ever time produced but it was a huge system. The Sabra will have some equal system I hope but much smaller and simple designed. The M60A3 (or even M48A5) with it's 105mm gun, it is very good to fight T-72's in battle. Also the 120mm CTG from the Sabra can be mounted on a M60 without much work on the turret. It's told that the barrel is almost the same in the diameter ??? (is this true) and therefore easily fit to the original turret of the M60A3. Then it can also fit to the M48 I think??? When a big war breaks ou (I hope not) Then I'm sure Turkey will use it's WWII era tanks to Iran too
Right now Iran is looking at Russian upgrades to their T-72 fleets, when they will actually start doing this, still is undetermined. And as far as the size of the TTS on the M60A3 you are right, I hated replacing them on the tanks.
Carring the TTS out of the M60's a day later you need a wheelchair
Ok, imagine that a big war broke out, Turkey has about 170 M60A1 upgraded to the Sabra Mk. 2 standard. Putting only the 120mm CTG on a M48's and increase the tank fleet with again 3000 plus existing tanks would be nice not? Then we have nearly 5500 MBT's with killing power.
But you are right. The M900 105mm DU round or the MECAR Belgian 105mm round are also deadly to even a M1A2 tank let stay a upgraded T-72 or Zulfiqar tank from Iran.
The question is, where should Turkey go with it's modernized M60A1's? Should Turkey modernize their whole fleet of M60's to the Sabra standard or use the tech transfer to research for a more modern concept? I think that Turkey will also upgrade their best M48's to the Sabra whetever we don't want it till the First Turkish indigenous tank is delivered. Also, it is only for a short while and take the 120mm barrel and get rid of the M48. What if Turkey has 1000 M60's converted to the Sabra and 1000 M48's converted to the Sabra? Would it be much diferent from the M60A1 Sabra in it's mobility and killing power? I think the armor is only a bit worser because of the basis armor of a M60 is better than the silly M48 not? I know it's not a good intention to upgrade the old M48's because it is dead investment but you don't know Turkey. Turkey would use it's M48's till it's destroyed!
Ok, imagine that a big war broke out, Turkey has about 170 M60A1 upgraded to the Sabra Mk. 2 standard. Putting only the 120mm CTG on a M48's and increase the tank fleet with again 3000 plus existing tanks would be nice not? Then we have nearly 5500 MBT's with killing power.
But you are right. The M900 105mm DU round or the MECAR Belgian 105mm round are also deadly to even a M1A2 tank let stay a upgraded T-72 or Zulfiqar tank from Iran.
The question is, where should Turkey go with it's modernized M60A1's? Should Turkey modernize their whole fleet of M60's to the Sabra standard or use the tech transfer to research for a more modern concept? I think that Turkey will also upgrade their best M48's to the Sabra whetever we don't want it till the First Turkish indigenous tank is delivered. Also, it is only for a short while and take the 120mm barrel and get rid of the M48. What if Turkey has 1000 M60's converted to the Sabra and 1000 M48's converted to the Sabra? Would it be much diferent from the M60A1 Sabra in it's mobility and killing power? I think the armor is only a bit worser because of the basis armor of a M60 is better than the silly M48 not? I know it's not a good intention to upgrade the old M48's because it is dead investment but you don't know Turkey. Turkey would use it's M48's till it's destroyed!
The M833 is a mean little sabot round also, If you can perform upgrades that are cost effective than by all means this would be a realistic approach, also why can you not place these tanks in mothball or re sell them, if you were to sell them to a country that the U.S approves of, I do not think that Turkey would catch to much flak from us for that. I would keep them in the front lines until you have something to replace them with, either your own design or if you purchase them from someone else. Some people get into the habit of pre judging a country by it`s equipment when they need to look at that country as a whole. You can have a deadly opponent operating a T-55 if that unit has high morale, proper training and has a full understanding of that vehicles capabilities, North Korea would be a good example of this. If you can still get first round kill shots with the 105mm ammunition that is around what is the big deal or rush to get them replaced, spend the money in research or other weapon platforms.Carring the TTS out of the M60's a day later you need a wheelchair
Ok, imagine that a big war broke out, Turkey has about 170 M60A1 upgraded to the Sabra Mk. 2 standard. Putting only the 120mm CTG on a M48's and increase the tank fleet with again 3000 plus existing tanks would be nice not? Then we have nearly 5500 MBT's with killing power.
But you are right. The M900 105mm DU round or the MECAR Belgian 105mm round are also deadly to even a M1A2 tank let stay a upgraded T-72 or Zulfiqar tank from Iran.
The question is, where should Turkey go with it's modernized M60A1's? Should Turkey modernize their whole fleet of M60's to the Sabra standard or use the tech transfer to research for a more modern concept? I think that Turkey will also upgrade their best M48's to the Sabra whetever we don't want it till the First Turkish indigenous tank is delivered. Also, it is only for a short while and take the 120mm barrel and get rid of the M48. What if Turkey has 1000 M60's converted to the Sabra and 1000 M48's converted to the Sabra? Would it be much diferent from the M60A1 Sabra in it's mobility and killing power? I think the armor is only a bit worser because of the basis armor of a M60 is better than the silly M48 not? I know it's not a good intention to upgrade the old M48's because it is dead investment but you don't know Turkey. Turkey would use it's M48's till it's destroyed!
Yes good point. But the upgrade of the M48 or M60 to the Sabra cost also some hundreds of thousands or maybe a million $ for the Turkish army. The Turkish army have 120,000 shells of the M833 APFSDS/DU that can penetrate 600mm RHA at 2000 meters. So, also modern tanks must take the 105mm armed tanks seriously. I think that by the reason you mentioned this: "Some people get into the habit of pre judging a country by it`s equipment when they need to look at that country as a whole. You can have a deadly opponent operating a T-55 if that unit has high morale, proper training and has a full understanding of that vehicles capabilities, North Korea would be a good example of this. If you can still get first round kill shots with the 105mm ammunition that is around what is the big deal or rush to get them replaced, spend the money in research or other weapon platforms." that the Turkish army is also knows what he is using. But if the M48's are out of their operational live, then you have to replace them with new ones. But also, Turkish armored units with it's M48's are a very dangerous opponents in war time because of the high quality in training.
Then there you go - It will be a matter of what works out for the Turkish Army and how much you can afford to do at this present time, I will also say that Turkey has a long history of having a strong competant military that is very capable of handling themselves, a good example is the Korean war, when the North Koreans and Chinese knew they were in a certain area they tried to steer clear of them because of their bravery and tactics, trust me - for what I know about the Tukish Army I wouldn`t take anything for granted and would dread having to lock horns with them, thats with M48`s or not.
What do you mean with this (qoute)? I understand English good but it's not my own language, sorry for this.
But btw the Korean experience, especially in the Kunuri war was fought with big bravery. Not only with military power but also with humanity bu the Turkish brigade to the civilians. I saw a documentary in the Turkish TRT-Int television that a Korean old man who also fought to the North (he was speaking very good Turkish) told that the Turkish army was the 'thing' to go out of the Chinese 350,000 men strong surrounding with bajonets. When he was telling this, the old men was crying...
What I am saying is that I have a lot of respect for the Turkish army and their capabilities on the battlefield. Iam happy that they are our allies.
after thıs upgrade ıf ı understood rıght TSK wıll have nearly 4000 mbt some sabra leo and upgrades gentelmen why TURKEY SHOLD NEED that much MBT ???? ıt ıs a lot and realy large force agaınst who these thanks wıll be ın use ???? ıf ıt ıs agaınst our old neıghbors ıt ıs realy a lot BUT IF IT IS agaınst new commers ın the regıon then we shal say TSK gettıng ready to handle an bıg combat ın comıng 10 years ???? ıf we asume reasonable relatıons ın europıan border of turkey ıs ok and north and syrıan borders there ıs no rıval or not realy tensıons then who ıs left ???? ıran ??? why ???? ıran turkısh relatıons are ok for at least 200 years so what for ????? ıs ıt we all tryıng to avoıd one maın poınt and we should al consıder ın lookıng IS THERE A POSIBILTY IN NEXT 10 years THAT TSK and IRAQS new gowerment and also coalıtıon forces could end up ın battle ?? and sabra could ıt be just a show ın the regıon ??
I personally do not know why Turkey has that many tanks, as far as the coalition forces over there goes, I do not see any reason why the U.S and Turkey would go to war, not on our part anyway. Turkey and the U.S have a good relationship that has been ongoing for years, we may not alway`s see eye to eye but we alway`s work our differences out. Could it be that Turkey is a little concerned with the capabilities that Iran may end up with, I know there are other countries over there that are a little worried.
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Turkey got so many tanks to fight the Red Army with. The Red Army has gone away, but Turkey hasn't scrapped all the old tanks (it has scrapped some), only put them into reserve.