Grand Danois
Entertainer
Last time I looked, UK was up to 6 sqns worth of JSF ~ 100. But that may not be the accurate an up to date numbers.
Re assembly lines. Well, Italy and Holland are "interested" and UK is "looking into it".
JSF leads in race over Turkey's new generation fighters
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Re assembly lines. Well, Italy and Holland are "interested" and UK is "looking into it".
contedicavour
New Member
Holland has handed over to us assembly, so no Dutch assembly line (btw, wasn't Fokker bankrupt ?).
BAE has several factories in the US so I'm not sure the UK is interested in an assembly plant, rather more in building components of JSFs for all countries involved in the project.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
The largest order remains the joint RAF/RN for 136. The joint AMI/MMI order in Italy is for 120 planes (22 at least are for the MMI, the Navy). The Netherlands are planning to order 80.It was not an entirely genuine question.
cheers
Grand Danois
Entertainer
Well, then that is set right.
I don't see how I am biased against Turkey... if she would stop propogating an arms race she would have nothing to fear. Greece has no chance of keeping up with Turkey in terms of expenditures or manpower. All they do is attempt to retain the status quo. Turkey on the other-hand uses excuses of being threatened from third world powers like Iran to explain her radical arms purchases like JSF. In reality no nation that borders Turkey has a bats chance in hell of being successful against her. Your welcome to explain the threats faced by your nation... I would love to hear why JSF is needed.
Your GDP per capita is much lower than the UK or any other partner nation for that matter. People first, military second. Social spending isn't a bad thing when 20% of your nation is in extreme poverty. To western standards 90% of the nation is in abject poverty
EF has a superb strike capability, it is the BEST in it's class. Just look at the ordinance list. It is far superior to Lightning II. Just because it is the sucsessor to F-16 doesn't make it a MUST buy. I doubt if THK is modelled after the USAF. I could understand your purchase of both JSF and EF-2000 but that article said you opted for JSF only. You will now have no air-superiority fighter. Only a semi-stealth attack air-craft. If she is spotted she is dead. I would rather be in a visual dog-fight in the F-16 than the JSF.
According to that article Turkey won't be buying EF ever. JSF will eat ALL of your procurement budget... especially if final build costs reach the $100 million mark. There is no better bribe than a multi-billion dollar consortium buy to sway the leading players when your per capita GDP is less than Botswana. If Turkey wants acceptance to the EU she has to spend more on her people and less on wasted defense.
Your last statement just made my point. Instead of being at Lockhead's whim get rights for your own aircraft... something that was offered to you by the EF consortium. You could do anything you wanted to those Typhoons without anyone's permission or help. If you so much as look at the JSF the wrong way you will be in breech of contract and the DOD will recall every last one.
Building parts is the low end of the equation, your just being used for cheap labor. The real $$$ is in assembly.
You WILL NOT get to sell JSF. You can't sell F-16s without US approval, what made you think you can sell JSF? The EF-2000 at listed prices will out sell JSF if it ends up costing twice as much which is currently projected.
Dollar for dollar the Eurofighter is a better workhorse, it is superior in every way in aerial combat minus stealth. Considering none of the nation's that border Turkey will ever have stealth this century it really is not needed. EF is MORE than adequete for the strike role.
I would love to hear why Netherlands needs JSF for that matter..They dont even have an enemy! Or why USA keeps an agressive stance about Iran ? Saying that they are trying to build a nuke.. She has enough nukes her self why still the arms race? Your excuses about the arms race are ridiculous. It applies for every nation. Even the mighty US can feel threatened about Iran why not us..
Still full of confusion, you have no insight... Still i respect your thoughts but Turkey has only said she will continiue her commitment to the JSF project. There is no statement saying the option of EF-2000 was fully dropped. Imo if Tranche III is ever realised TuAF may want that aircraft afterall but not as a primary aircraft but as secondary one.
For an American you talk like you are so sad your economy will gain 10bio$. This is very amusing... Then again perhaps you are an American that is not an American..
Still full of confusion, you have no insight... Still i respect your thoughts but Turkey has only said she will continiue her commitment to the JSF project. There is no statement saying the option of EF-2000 was fully dropped. Imo if Tranche III is ever realised TuAF may want that aircraft afterall but not as a primary aircraft but as secondary one.
For an American you talk like you are so sad your economy will gain 10bio$. This is very amusing... Then again perhaps you are an American that is not an American..
My dad was a River-rat in Nam, my Grandfather was logistics at Normandy on D-day, my great Grand father served aboard USS Olympia and raised the flag over Manilla in the Spanish-American War, my x2 great grandad served in the Union army while my x2 grand mother (neice to Robert E. Lee) married him which not only divided the nation but my family. Thru Robert E. Lee I have lineage to George Washington himself. No sir, I am as American as apple pie... on my fathers side, my mum is true blue Aussie.
hmm I must have misunderstood you somewhere LOL.I thought that was what I was saying.
Wow, haha, maybe you can run for president..
BIG-E FOR PRESIDENT!!
BIG-E FOR PRESIDENT!!
BIG-E FOR PRESIDENT!!
Just kidding with ya
Grand Danois
Entertainer
English is not my native language so I sometimes get a little obscure.
Ever hear of a General that wanted the "2'nd best" system? Needing and wanting are two different words. But even after saying that its important to remember that while "we" may not see a need for a country like Turkey to field a system like the JSF. The Turks do!
I would also add there is a political componant, one that I can understand having spent so much time in Turkey. The Turks dont see their nation as a 2'nd string of NATO ; They see it as a first line NATO ally that should operate systems every bit as modern as the rest of the Alliance.
I guess you have to have lived in the place to experience the honored place the Turkish armed forces have in their society and their sensitivity to having their military being armed with castaways from the rest of NATOs modernization programs.
As to "being threatened by Iran"? I highly doubt any NATO member other then Britain and America will ever be threatened by the Mullahs. The reason being that the lesson learned from Gulf-1, when Saddam got his guts stamped out from a united NATO, are quite fresh in the minds of the Iranian leadership. Their goal is to divide NATO, as was Saddams after 1992, and its one they will probably succeed at since NATO is mostly a paper tiger nowdays.
Why do we consider Iran an enemy?? Well for three decades they have been burning our flag, calling for our destruction, supporting terror groups that have murdered our citizens, and established their cultural identity based on hatred of the USA. The fact that such a country sits on top of such a strategic waterway doesn't help things much either.
I was all over that country in the 70s when their standard of living was much lower then today, and much of the country was in turmoil under martial Law. But I'd say the above statement wasnt even close to being true in the 70s let alone today. When I think of "abject poverty" I think of kids eating from garbage dumps. I saw no such thing in Turkey and if it wasnt there in the 70s it isn't there today.
Entirely correct. I travelled around Turkey a lot in the 1980s, & went back for a couple of weeks in 2003. Even in a small provincial town like Bartin (income way below average according to official statistics), I saw nothing like that. Just a shortage of decent restaurants & no posh hotels. The average Turk is well-fed, well-clothed, has a mobile phone (about 70% of the population now), TV (95% of households), washing machine (80%), etc, etc. Go to the Black Sea resorts in summer & they're crowded with tourists - 99% of them Turkish.
Meanwhile Anatolian Agency reported that during his meeting with Donald Rumsfeld, Turkish MoD has asked to assemble the aircraft in Turkey.. This is news for me.
What will be the decision criteria on where the aircraft will be assembled in Europe? The number of ordered platforms?
What will be the decision criteria on where the aircraft will be assembled in Europe? The number of ordered platforms?
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Grand Danois
Entertainer
Hahahaha! What did I say.
Criteria: Willingness to pay for your own assembly line. It seems the others will be paying for theirs.
Ridiculous. [The entire assembly line thing.]
contedicavour
New Member
There are some firm criteria, n° of planes ordered, level of skill of local industry, ability to run maintenance operations over the whole lifespan of the aircrafts, security at the site (which explains why we shall assemble F35s in a former air force base at Cameri)Hahahaha! What did I say.
Criteria: Willingness to pay for your own assembly line. It seems the others will be paying for theirs.
Ridiculous. [The entire assembly line thing.]
Earning a local assembly line may be in the offset deal that a government may negotiate with Lockheed Martin.
cheers
contedicavour
New Member
Regarding the question on the Netherlands, they need a limited number of multi-purpose jets to ensure control of airspace and run international peacekeeping missions (such as patrolling above A-stan
)On the item of air superiority, I believe it should be primary mission of any air force... F35 will do the job of course, but EF Typhoon would be even better for the reasons already stated previously in this thread. Anyway, up to Turkey to decide how to spend its money !
cheers
How can Tranche II provide air superiority in 2015 when even the phunniest Russian fighter will have AESA like systems ?
As i said if you look at history and doctrine of TuAF we always had more emphasis on strike (cold War doctrine where Russia was big enemy and NATO would provide air superiority).
In post cold war scenario where Turkey would fight on 2 fronts (Greece & Syria in 90s) what we needed was numbers that would eventually give air superiority. Besides F-15C was never relased for sale to Turkey until too late although F-15As were offered as donations during Gulf War I.
Today and future the doctrine still applies quite same. As long as there is no airsuperiority fighter in our neighbors i dont believe we will need or buy any. When Iran goes for Su-27 derivatives and when TrancheIII deal is signed expect Turkey to look at EF-2000 or similar.
Meanwhile today i read that remaining F-16 blk40s will also be going under the modernisation program which will bring TuAFs F-16 fleet to same capabilities as Block 50+ aircraft. That will make 240+ aircraft with latest order of 30..
As i said if you look at history and doctrine of TuAF we always had more emphasis on strike (cold War doctrine where Russia was big enemy and NATO would provide air superiority).
In post cold war scenario where Turkey would fight on 2 fronts (Greece & Syria in 90s) what we needed was numbers that would eventually give air superiority. Besides F-15C was never relased for sale to Turkey until too late although F-15As were offered as donations during Gulf War I.
Today and future the doctrine still applies quite same. As long as there is no airsuperiority fighter in our neighbors i dont believe we will need or buy any. When Iran goes for Su-27 derivatives and when TrancheIII deal is signed expect Turkey to look at EF-2000 or similar.
Meanwhile today i read that remaining F-16 blk40s will also be going under the modernisation program which will bring TuAFs F-16 fleet to same capabilities as Block 50+ aircraft. That will make 240+ aircraft with latest order of 30..
contedicavour
New Member
Tranche II are already superb air superiority fighters, no need to wait for Tranche III for that. Tranche III will add mostly air-to-ground features that will help make the Typhoon more multi-purpose.
By 2015 Russia might have finished modernizing its Flankers and Foxhounds (MIG31) plus its Fulcrums, but at current rate even that seems unlikely. From there to expecting that even the worst Russian fighters in 2015 will have AESA you are way too optimistic
Last but not least, regarding your neighbours, it is likely that Greece will get Typhoons sooner rather than later... and once that's done and Iran gets SU30s, you won't be able to rely on a F35-only air force (greatly reduced from today's numbers as you won't be able to afford 1:1 replacements of F4s and F16s).
cheers
How can a mechanic radared , non LO aircraft provide air superiority against an aircraft with LO and AESA radar? Tranche II Eurofighter is better than F-16 yes, But tomorrow there will be no place in the sky for aircraft with mechanic radars. Please dont compare an aircraft which was designed in 80s to another aircraft which is still passing its prototype years. They are way different.
Besides as i said TuAF still might show interest in TIII, AESA radar, Meteor missile, Stand - off weapons selections and even Thrust vectoring might make it interesting.. But today? No thanks, we wont be getting planes that even UK is trying to dump into Saudi Arabia from her production limits for future tranches.. Btw i dont mind at all if Greece goes for EF.. But i believe they will opt for F-35 not Eurofighter , since their fighter tender will start only after 2010...
Besides as i said TuAF still might show interest in TIII, AESA radar, Meteor missile, Stand - off weapons selections and even Thrust vectoring might make it interesting.. But today? No thanks, we wont be getting planes that even UK is trying to dump into Saudi Arabia from her production limits for future tranches.. Btw i dont mind at all if Greece goes for EF.. But i believe they will opt for F-35 not Eurofighter , since their fighter tender will start only after 2010...