JSF leads in race over Turkey's new generation fighters

[swerve]

How can Tranche II provide air superiority in 2015 when even the phunniest Russian fighter will have AESA like systems ?

Tranche 2 radars are AESA-capable. Selex describes the upgrade as a "field modification". Takes hours.

What we don't have yet is a production-ready AESA antenna for Captor, & perhaps the software to use its capabilities fully. But by 2015 (i.e. when Turkey could start taking delivery of F-35s), I'm sure they'll be ready.

Also, AESA does not automatically make a radar superior to all non-AESA radars. Would you back a fighter with a 500 element array Vixen 500E against an otherwise similar one with a mechanically-scanned Captor? I wouldn't.

 

[beleg]

We are comparing apples to pears here. We are talking about a requirement for after 2015s.. Lets see what Eurofighter will have to offer for that time. ,

For today it doesnt have the necessary coverage in TuAFs needs, namely a strike fighter not an air superiority fighter.

Do you claim by your latest sentence that F-35 AESA radar will be inferior to EF Captor?

 

[swerve]

We are comparing apples to pears here. We are talking about a requirement for after 2015s.. Lets see what Eurofighter will have to offer for that time. ,
...

Do you claim by your latest sentence that F-35 AESA radar will be inferior to EF Captor?

1) Exactly.
2) No. I mean what I say, & I didn't say that. But I get tired of AESA being used as shorthand for "superior", when it may or may not be, depending on the particular radars being compared, & what is wanted from them.

 

[beleg]

Anyway, i would love to see EF-2000 with Turkish colours, although in somewhat limited numbers (2 sqs worth of airframes).But i am not the one to decide, and whenever we hear a decleration from EU diplomats, complaining about TSK, i dont expect the soldiers have sympaty for EU products..

 

[Waylander]

Maybe there is a reason for some of the critics.

 

[beleg]

Thats irrelevant to the armys feelings

 

[Waylander]

Aaaaaah.

 

[Ths]

As to need: Just look at Turkeys neighbours:
Iran, Syria and some sort of Russia. With that neighbourhood you pack all the heat you can get (to quote the shilling shockers). Believe me Greece is the least of their problems.
Not to mention the Black Sea Fleet.

Due to the terrain there are actually only a few ways to attack Turkey - as the hittites found out. These avenues will get pretty intense.

The traditional defence of the Anatolian Highland is to guard the approaches to gain time for a heavy reserve to arrive.

The need is there all-right.

 

[fantasma]

As to need: Just look at Turkeys neighbours:
Iran, Syria and some sort of Russia. With that neighbourhood you pack all the heat you can get (to quote the shilling shockers). Believe me Greece is the least of their problems.
Not to mention the Black Sea Fleet.

Due to the terrain there are actually only a few ways to attack Turkey - as the hittites found out. These avenues will get pretty intense.

The traditional defence of the Anatolian Highland is to guard the approaches to gain time for a heavy reserve to arrive.

The need is there all-right.

I agree with you but just have a look to these military installation airbases and aircrafts..if i had trully fears on the east i wouldnt put most and best of my planes in the west or in the centre but close to the area i may feel threatened

Western Turkey
Balikesir, near Aegean: 191 Filo "Kobra" F-16s
192 Filo "Kaplan" F16s

Bandirma: 161 Filo "Kartal" F16s
162 Filo "Zipkin" F16s (both sqn block 40 Lantirn strike roles maybe these sqns are dedicated to strike from the West of Turkey to Iran)

Eskisehir: 111 Filo "Panter" F-4E Terminator strike role
112 Filo "Seytan" F-4E Terminator strike role
113 Filo "Isik" RF-4E

other airbases to Afion, Akhisar, Dalaman, Attalia, Gazdemir etc.

Central Turkey
Mertzifon: 151 Filo "Tunc" F-16S BLOCK 50 (SEAD)
152 Filo "Acinci" F-16s block 50

Akintzi: 141 Filo "Kurt" F16 block 50
142 Filo "Ceylan"
143 Filo "Oncel'' F16 block 30

Ikonio: 131 Filo F-4E
132 Filo F-4E/ NF-5A/B
133 Filo F/NF-5A/B
134 Filo NF-5A

Incirlic where are based the KC-135R, Etimesgkout (sorry for spelling) where are based the CN-235, Erkinji C-160 and C-130..

Eastern Turkey
Erhak: 171 Filo "Korsan" F-4E
172 Filo "Sahin" F-4E
173 Filo "Sahak" RF-4E

Diyarbakir: 181 Filo "Pars" F-16 block 40
182 Filo "Atmaca" F-16 block 40
other bases Erzeroum,not sure Batman..

My view is that the new F-35 will be based on the West and central areas of Turkey mainly and the F16s from the western central areas will be pulled to the east..

 

[beleg]

Dear Fantasma,
Turkey has distributed the airbases and the aircraft quite equally on east and west of Turkey. For instance F-4 Terminators are divided into east and west, there are blok50 sq.s on both east and western Turkey.
Numerically there might be more aircrafts on west but this is natural, numerically there is more adversaries on west than east.

I agree with you about F-35 , initially the first F-35 sqs. will replace the F-4s in western bases. However thanks to tanker aircraft , the airplanes location and bases dont matter much to TuAF , sometimes you can see a squadron based in eastern Turkey, taking of from their base, excersizing in Black Sea, Med Sea or the Aegean. and returning to their base after refuelling.

 

[fantasma]

Dear Fantasma,
Turkey has distributed the airbases and the aircraft quite equally on east and west of Turkey. For instance F-4 Terminators are divided into east and west, there are blok50 sq.s on both east and western Turkey.
Numerically there might be more aircrafts on west but this is natural, numerically there is more adversaries on west than east.

I agree with you about F-35 , initially the first F-35 sqs. will replace the F-4s in western bases. However thanks to tanker aircraft , the airplanes location and bases dont matter much to TuAF , sometimes you can see a squadron based in eastern Turkey, taking of from their base, excersizing in Black Sea, Med Sea or the Aegean. and returning to their base after refuelling.

So this fairy tale that the F-35 are supposed to countermeasure the threat coming from the east must take an end..there is not such an airforce now or even a combination of airforces lets say Syria/ Iran that can oppose a serious threat against Turkey..(Iraq is still in the ashes and destruction)..Iranis airforce alone or combined together with Syrias Airforce are still inferior in numbers and in quality towards Turkey..Anybody denies that? ..the only adversary airforce in numbers and quality is the greek airforce and by bringing the F-35 in the "game" the only adversary that is affected by this procurement is the greek side..if anybody here considers the Iranis Airforce or the Syrians one as a threat to Turkey bring facts and data

 

[contedicavour]

I'd only say that the massive superiority of the Turkish Air force over Iran and Syria is useful for more than pure self-defence... it serves to make sure Iran and Syria keep their heads cool and don't push provocation too far.

Beyond the psychological perspective, if it came to an attack on a nuclear Iran, you do need a 5:1 or 10:1 advantage if you are running attack operations. Turkey would probably wipe out the Fulcrums and remaining Tomcats and Phantoms in Iranian service, but what about the modern sam installations and the bombing runs that would be needed against very heavily protected nuclear facilities ?

cheers

 

[fantasma]

I'd only say that the massive superiority of the Turkish Air force over Iran and Syria is useful for more than pure self-defence... it serves to make sure Iran and Syria keep their heads cool and don't push provocation too far.

Beyond the psychological perspective, if it came to an attack on a nuclear Iran, you do need a 5:1 or 10:1 advantage if you are running attack operations. Turkey would probably wipe out the Fulcrums and remaining Tomcats and Phantoms in Iranian service, but what about the modern sam installations and the bombing runs that would be needed against very heavily protected nuclear facilities ?

cheers

You mean attack operations from Turkey after a nuclear strike from Iran or a pre emptive strike..like this that the Israelis did in the 80ys..

 

[beleg]

fantasma,
you have to realise that our problem is not Greece and Greece alone. Turkeys goal is to be able to keep on fighting on 2 fronts. One on the west and one on the east. This dogma has been there since the Independence War and will be there for forseeable time.

You should know better, since it was your country that signed a deal with Syria during 90s which made you number one ally of Syria until 99.. and caused Turkey to get very close with Israel despite its then Islamist government.

Since you were never a primary target of Mullahs that swore to overthrow the democratic and secular system we enjoy, its hard for you to feel a threat from east. But please spare us to think different.Dont feel offended but for the ordinary Turk , Iran is a true rival while Greece is just a nuicance, no matter what is the strength of each nations military power is.
Its not the airforce which is the threat, its the Iranian state which uses various ways (Hizbollah, nuclear ambitions ) to become the regional tyrant and become the leader of all Muslims. Middle east is approaching another shia - sunni civil war and this war might fuel other ethnical wars too.

Anyway, Both Iran and Syria might lack a reputable airforce today but especially for Iran things are changing face. They are in a nuclear race and if they do win it, which i think they will after the elections in USA , the middle east will not be the same anymore. Expect them to rapidly grow their military power in a decade or so since they have both the natural resources and the dedicated and fanatic rulers.

I do not think that Turkey will let Iran play the Islamist Revolution and Kurdish terrorism card again.

I firmly believe that even if Turkey and Greece had no problems , Turkey would still buy the JSF. Turkey is a member of NATO, joining all the NATO peace keeping operations unlike some other NATO members, sending her aircraft ,helicopters and soldeirs to patrol skies and guard the people of her NATO alllies. The hostile geography we live in , with or without Greece, is enough reason to buy this aircraft.

For Gods sake, even Netherlands, which is just a little bigger than Istanbul is planning to buy 80 F-35 which is just a squadron less than us. Dont exagerrate your country mate, you are a problem for us but not the worst ..

 

[fantasma]

fantasma,
you have to realise that our problem is not Greece and Greece alone. Turkeys goal is to be able to keep on fighting on 2 fronts. One on the west and one on the east. This dogma has been there since the Independence War and will be there for forseeable time.

You should know better, since it was your country that signed a deal with Syria during 90s which made you number one ally of Syria until 99.. and caused Turkey to get very close with Israel despite its then Islamist government.

Since you were never a primary target of Mullahs that swore to overthrow the democratic and secular system we enjoy, its hard for you to feel a threat from east. But please spare us to think different.Dont feel offended but for the ordinary Turk , Iran is a true rival while Greece is just a nuicance, no matter what is the strength of each nations military power is.
Its not the airforce which is the threat, its the Iranian state which uses various ways (Hizbollah, nuclear ambitions ) to become the regional tyrant and become the leader of all Muslims. Middle east is approaching another shia - sunni civil war and this war might fuel other ethnical wars too.

Anyway, Both Iran and Syria might lack a reputable airforce today but especially for Iran things are changing face. They are in a nuclear race and if they do win it, which i think they will after the elections in USA , the middle east will not be the same anymore. Expect them to rapidly grow their military power in a decade or so since they have both the natural resources and the dedicated and fanatic rulers.

I do not think that Turkey will let Iran play the Islamist Revolution and Kurdish terrorism card again.

I firmly believe that even if Turkey and Greece had no problems , Turkey would still buy the JSF. Turkey is a member of NATO, joining all the NATO peace keeping operations unlike some other NATO members, sending her aircraft ,helicopters and soldeirs to patrol skies and guard the people of her NATO alllies. The hostile geography we live in , with or without Greece, is enough reason to buy this aircraft.

For Gods sake, even Netherlands, which is just a little bigger than Istanbul is planning to buy 80 F-35 which is just a squadron less than us. Dont exagerrate your country mate, you are a problem for us but not the worst ..

Finally mate true feelings and your arrogance towards Greece comes to the surface..maybe you forget that you are a NATO member and according to article 5 of Nato you will be assisted in case of war with your south eastern or northeastern neighbours thus as you deliberately faulse told us before, not a single f16 block 50 is based on the east of Turkey, maybe you didnt read my list above..is this list true or faulse?
For the same reason Turkey has acquired the F16s to "counterbalance" the Iran Iraq and Syria and that's why in the Eastern front are based less than 30% of the total number of your best fighters that are the f16s..if we are a nuincence then why on the western front you have headed the most of your quality weapons armour helos ac etc..if im not right just make a list about the weaponry you have heading on the "west side" which is a nuincence and a list with your weaponry assets facing Iran Iraq Syria and Armenia..afterwards add the weaponry which is headed towards the "western threat" and compare the assets you have stationed towards your "eastern threat". Please do..Maybe opposite this nuincence you have your best assets
ac helos armour frigates etc..
Thanks in advance

 

[beleg]

I stand by my words, i dont insult you with words like arrogance, but your lack of knowledge makes you miss judge the situation. Did you read all of my post?

It took 3 long months and alot of pressure from USA to bring a few phunny Patriots from Germany and Neatherlands to Turkey during the last crisis with Iraq (which was attacked for existance of WMDs). No one is stupid enough to trust only on alliences and signatures.

Are you aware that all of Turkeys 9 Supercobras are based in Eastern Turkey?

Are you aware that we dont have sea on east ? So its natural that our Navy exists near our most important sea & trade routes, namely Straits and Eastern Med.


TuAF is divided into 2 tactical aircommands,

1st Tactical Air Command (west) has the following jet bases and airframes

1.AJU Eskişehir F-4, F-4 2020
2.AJU ANKARA F-16 blk30&40
3.AJU Bandırma F-16 blk40
4.AJU Balıkesir F-16 blk50
2nd Tactical Air Command (east) has the following jet bases and airframes
5.AJU Merzifon F-16 blk-50
6.AJU Erhaç F-4, F-4 2020
7.AJU Diyarbakır F-16 blk40

http://www.scramble.nl/mil/4/thk/orbat.htm#LTBFMerzifon airbase which is in the eastern half of northern Turkey is a blk 50 user. One of this sqs is the SEAD sq. of TuAF. I told you before that it doesnt matter which aircraft is stationed east or west for Turkey since we have enough tanker aircrafts to supply our fighter fleet in the air with fuel they will need in case of emergency.

the only difference is on west we have a special jet base whose duty is to protect our capital ANKARA from attack and is mainly using block 30s (2sqs)..

now tell me about arrogance again? Please...

 

[contedicavour]

You mean attack operations from Turkey after a nuclear strike from Iran or a pre emptive strike..like this that the Israelis did in the 80ys..

Rather more pre-emptive strike after an umpteenth UN resolution that would have been disregarded, yes.

cheers

 

[Big-E]

As to need: Just look at Turkeys neighbours:
Iran, Syria and some sort of Russia. With that neighbourhood you pack all the heat you can get (to quote the shilling shockers). Believe me Greece is the least of their problems.
Not to mention the Black Sea Fleet.

Due to the terrain there are actually only a few ways to attack Turkey - as the hittites found out. These avenues will get pretty intense.

The traditional defence of the Anatolian Highland is to guard the approaches to gain time for a heavy reserve to arrive.

The need is there all-right.

Lets look at her neighbors,

Iran... IRIAF is a joke compared to F-16 block 50s
Iran MBTs are no match for Leapords
Navy, no comparison

Syria... nfloorl:

Russia... when are they going to meet?
Black Sea Fleet will be gone once the lease on Sevastopol runs out.

Not one of Turkey's neighbors compare, no threats real or imagined justify the expenditure for so little a return.

 

[beleg]

I wonder if threats real or imagined did justify the expenditure for Iraq..

I wonder why Bush administration is threating Iran with war , when IRIAF is a joke compared to blk50s..

I wonder why is it weird to look for a stealth strike fighter when all your neighbors have very capable SAMs (Patriot PACIIIs, S300s etc etc)

I wonder why USAF looks for a new multirole fighter when blk50 is so cool...

I wonder why there is still no answer from you for the needs of Netherlands and their 80 F-35s..

I wonder why you still look at the world events and Turkey with such a narrow perspective with no real depth in your arguments.. You dont even seem to realise that this order is for the NEXT decade when Iran will not be the same Iran and Middle East will not be the SAME Middle East.. Oh by the way this is thanks to the Democracy Patriot Bush Administration..

 

[contedicavour]

I think what would help is finding out what sort of equipment the Turkish armed forces expect Iran, Syria, etc to have in 10 years' time.

Deciding which weapons procurement to go for as a function of the expected threat from your neighbors in 10-20 years' time is key.

That would also help assuage any fears that part of tomorrow's Turkish arsenal may actually be built up more against the West than the East.

Just one final question : how would total numbers of fighterbombers evolve in the next 10-15 years, as the F4s and then the F16s are replaced by F35s ? I can't stop thinking that by buying only the F35 your air force's numbers risk shrinking very fast.

cheers