JSF leads in race over Turkey's new generation fighters

[anafor2004]

JSF leads in race over Turkey's new generation fighters
Friday, October 27, 2006



ANKARA/WASHINGTON - TDN Defense Desk


The U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) seems to be leading the fierce competition over selling around 100 fighter aircraft to the Turkish Air Force over the next 15-20 years, with Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon lagging behind, procurement and military officials said.

In recent months the government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan was in favor of an idea to go for a combined solution: Proceed with an ongoing partnership in the F-35 JSF program and join the European Eurofighter consortium for other strategic purposes related to Turkey's European Union membership aspirations. But the military command recently told the government's defense agency that it favored only the F-35 JSF solution for the Air Force's future requirements, the officials said.

In addition to locally produced military equipment used by the Turkish Armed Forces (TSK), the navy mostly belongs to the German school, while the army's inventory includes a mixture of U.S., European and other weapons systems. But the Turkish Air Force has always been a strong follower of the U.S. tradition in domains ranging from aircraft and weapons to training. And Turkey's current F-16, F-4E and F-5 fighter squadrons are exclusively U.S.-designed.

The Eurofighter already is in service, while mass production of the F-35, now called the Lightning II, will begin in several years.

Together with the United States and seven other Western allies, Turkey has been a member of the JSF's ongoing system development and demonstration phase since 2002, agreeing to pay $175 million.


http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=57647

 

[Big-E]

I find it ironic that with Turkey's quest to become self sufficient in arms production she would make herself dependent on the US. The EF would have been the perfect solution to building a domestic production capacity with sales liscence.

The logic of the situation lends to 6 reasons why they shouldn't get JSF

1) They can't afford it
2) They don't need it
3) It doesn't help them get into the EU
4) Have to depend on US b/c they wont get source codes
5) won't be able to produce it
6) won't be able to sell it

:nutkick

 

[contedicavour]

I find it ironic that with Turkey's quest to become self sufficient in arms production she would make herself dependent on the US. The EF would have been the perfect solution to building a domestic production capacity with sales liscence.

The logic of the situation lends to 6 reasons why they shouldn't get JSF

1) They can't afford it
2) They don't need it
3) It doesn't help them get into the EU
4) Have to depend on US b/c they wont get source codes
5) won't be able to produce it
6) won't be able to sell it

:nutkick

Hello Big-E, wouldn't an acquisition under FMS rules be affordable ?
Regarding production, I wonder if some sort of final assembly isn't possible. The Turks did assemble after all hundreds of F16s locally in the '90s.
Last but not least, I'm not sure that even ourselves or the British will get our hands on the source codes despite the fact that we are very close partners in this programme... yet we're still planning to build them.

Anyway, if we do get a chance to export some more Typhoons in the meanwhile (since the F35s won't start building until 2012 earliest), more than happy

cheers

 

[Occum]

Microsoft Support - Aerospace Style

I find it ironic that with Turkey's quest to become self sufficient in arms production she would make herself dependent on the US. The EF would have been the perfect solution to building a domestic production capacity with sales liscence.

The logic of the situation lends to 6 reasons why they shouldn't get JSF

1) They can't afford it
2) They don't need it
3) It doesn't help them get into the EU
4) Have to depend on US b/c they wont get source codes
5) won't be able to produce it
6) won't be able to sell it

:nutkick

Agree entirely.

However, there is this myth about the source codes that needs to be dispelled.

At the end of the day, source codes are just script and zeros and ones on a page or burned into a DVD/CD or on a hard disk. Even if countries like the UK and Australia get the source codes, these data are useless unless one has the capabilities to do something with them - the hardware, software and warmware capabilities in an appropriate development environment that can do such things as the regression testing et al.

No-one but LM will have this capability and it will be closely guarded. This is one of the many reasons why JSF support is going to be the aerospace version of Microsoft Support.

 

[contedicavour]

Agree entirely.

However, there is this myth about the source codes that needs to be dispelled.

At the end of the day, source codes are just script and zeros and ones on a page or burned into a DVD/CD or on a hard disk. Even if countries like the UK and Australia get the source codes, these data are useless unless one has the capabilities to do something with them - the hardware, software and warmware capabilities in an appropriate development environment that can do such things as the regression testing et al.

No-one but LM will have this capability and it will be closely guarded. This is one of the many reasons why JSF support is going to be the aerospace version of Microsoft Support.

What about the other "level 1" partners in the JSF programme, starting with the UK ? Sharing of source codes is a pre-requisite to continue a successful partnership in the R&D phase lasting up until 2011 at least...

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

What about the other "level 1" partners in the JSF programme, starting with the UK ? Sharing of source codes is a pre-requisite to continue a successful partnership in the R&D phase lasting up until 2011 at least...

cheers

There are no other tier 1 partners.

FMS wouldn't make sense if you're already a partner (formally a co-owner of the aircraft.). It's either one or the other.

 

[Occum]

What about the other "level 1" partners in the JSF programme, starting with the UK ? Sharing of source codes is a pre-requisite to continue a successful partnership in the R&D phase lasting up until 2011 at least...

cheers

This is true, as it is for Australia and others.

However, what are they going to do with the source codes once they have them.

I suppose if they are provided in computer printout form, these could be used for door stops. The 5+ million lines of code would make for some big printouts. No good for wheel chocks, though, as when they get wet they will turn to pulp .... and then there is the wind on the tarmac to consider. Duh!

 

[Grand Danois]

This is true, as it is for Australia and others.

However, what are they going to do with the source codes once they have them.

I suppose if they are provided in computer printout form, these could be used for door stops. The 5+ million lines of code would make for some big printouts. No good for wheel chocks, though, as when they get wet they will turn to pulp .... and then there is the wind on the tarmac to consider. Duh!

UK has the source code as they are co-developing the aircraft. The are deep into the bus, EW suite and other sensors in a heavily integrated and sensor fused aircraft.

They have the code and the environment at hand to apply it.

 

[dioditto]

There are no other tier 1 partners.

FMS wouldn't make sense if you're already a partner (formally a co-owner of the aircraft.). It's either one or the other.

Huh? Are you sure?

I am fairly certain UK is the tier 1 partner in the JSF program. I think Australia is tier 3 (?) partner...

The JSF program is 'tiered,' with 4 possible levels of participation based on admission levels and funding commitments for System Design & Development (SDD). Note that all totals below are in US dollar equivalents:

* Tier 1 Partners: The USA (majority commitment), Britain ($2 billion)
* Tier 2 Partners: Italy ($1 billion); The Netherlands ($800 million)
* Tier 3 Partners: Australia ($150M), Canada ($150M), Denmark ($125M), Norway ($125M), Turkey ($175M)
* Observer status: Israel ($35M), Singapore.


http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com...ighter-sdd-contracts-events-fy-2006/index.php

 

[Grand Danois]

Huh? Are you sure?

I am fairly certain UK is the tier 1 partner in the JSF program. I think Australia is tier 2 (?) partner...

I thought that was what I was saying.

 

[anafor2004]

Turkey confirms commitment to JSF buy
Tuesday, October 31, 2006

Defense Minister Gönül says Turkey is due to sign memorandum of understanding for JSF before the end of November

ÜMİT ENGINSOY

WASHINGTON - Turkish Daily News


Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gönül said late on Sunday that Turkey would soon sign a memorandum of understanding representing Ankara's commitment to the purchase of the U.S.-led Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) F-35 Lightning II as its new-generation fighter aircraft.

“We are asked to sign a memorandum of understanding before the end of November. We, nine countries, are signing it,” Gönül told a small group of reporters after arriving here for a visit for talks with U.S. officials on details of the planned JSF buy.

The nine countries Gönül was referring to are the United States, Britain, Italy, the Netherlands, Turkey, Australia, Canada, Denmark and Norway -- all members of the JSF's ongoing system development and demonstration phase. By signing the memorandum of understanding, those nations formally will express commitment to a JSF purchase.

Gönül's remarks were Turkey's first official statement that it would buy the F-35 JSF Lightning II, although this move was widely expected. They came amid ongoing competition, technically, between the U.S.-led JSF and Europe's Eurofighter Typhoon.

Until mid-summer, Turkish procurement officials had been saying that Turkey could buy “only the JSF, only the Eurofighter or a combination of both.” However, in the last few months the rivalry had been narrowed down to a choice between the JSF only or a shared purchase of the F-35 and the Eurofighter.

But procurement and military officials last week told the Turkish Daily News (TDN) that the military command, including the Turkish Air Force and General Staff, favored the JSF as the only solution.

Gönül did not say if Turkey had fully abandoned the Eurofighter option, or if a number of European fighters still might be acquired in addition to the F-35s.

The $10 billion, 15-year new-generation fighter aircraft program is the largest defense procurement project in Turkey's history.

The number of aircraft to be bought is expected to be around or slightly higher than 100, but an exact figure is now known at this point. The exact number of the F-35 JSFs Turkey would be committed to purchase should be specified when Ankara signs the memorandum of understanding.

Gönül was due to meet with U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld late on Monday when TDN went to press. In his talks in Washington and later in Fort Worth, Texas, the F-35's main production site, the Turkish team will seek to maximize local work share for Turkey's defense industry in the JSF program and remove a number of hitches.

“Each member country wants a local work share and advantages in line with its interests,” Gönül said, adding that his team would seek the same.

Head of the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) Murad Bayar, Turkey's top bureaucrat on defense procurement, is accompanying Gönül on the U.S. visit. Lockheed Martin, the world's largest defense company, is leading the JSF's development. In the Pengaton's largest contract in history, worth more than $280 billion, over 3,000 aircraft are planned to eventually be produced, with the United States buying around 2,400.In talks with Lockheed Martin, Turkish procurement officials have so far received a pledge for the manufacture of the center fuselage of 400 F-35s, worth $1.85 billion in 2002 prices, by Turkey's Tusas Aerospace Industry (TAI). In today's prices the figure is close to $2.5 billion. TAI's stake is expected to be around two-thirds of the total Turkish work share in the JSF program. The new-generation fighters will replace the Turkish Air Force's present fleet of aging F-16s and Vietnam War-era F-4Es. The new batch of F-16 Block 50s is planned to compensate for the attrition of aircraft in the last two decades and act as a stopgap solution until the new-generation fighters begin to arrive in the mid-2010s. Gönül and his U.S. counterparts will also discuss a possible Turkish work share in the production of 30 new F-16 Block 50 fighters Ankara is planning to buy from the United States. The U.S. Congress in mid-October approved the sale to the Turkish Air Force of the latest batch of F-16s, worth up to $2.9 billion. But the two sides must work out all details and sign a contract.

Gönül said “we definitely want” a role for the Turkish industry in the latest F-16 program, but added “I don't know how we can find a middle ground.”The Turkish defense minister said that in his meeting with Rumsfeld, joint efforts to counter the terrorist Kurdistan Worker's Party (PKK) also were expected to be discussed briefly.



http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=57919

 

[beleg]

I find it ironic that with Turkey's quest to become self sufficient in arms production she would make herself dependent on the US. The EF would have been the perfect solution to building a domestic production capacity with sales liscence.

The logic of the situation lends to 6 reasons why they shouldn't get JSF

1) They can't afford it
2) They don't need it
3) It doesn't help them get into the EU
4) Have to depend on US b/c they wont get source codes
5) won't be able to produce it
6) won't be able to sell it

:nutkick

Dear Big-E

From your earlier remarks in this forum i can safely say you are strongly biased against Turkey thus making those remarks above. But unfortunately they are totally false.

1 We can afford it and you will see it pretty soon with orders confirmed and deliveries starting on 2014. If we cant afford it rest assured none of the partners can afford it except UK.

2 We do need it, If you look at the force strutcture of TuAF you will see a strong multi-role aircraft with an emphasis on strike roles (F-16 , F-4 2020). TuAF doesnt have any Air superiority fighter and never had the priority of one in its long history. F-35 which is the natural replacement of F-16 in NATO airforces , the most succesfull multirole strike fighter, is the future strike fighter of TuAF. EF-2000 can be only a secondary aircraft since its main role is airsuperiority not strike.

3 Although this purchase has political meanings attached to it, the decision to join EU (which is 10+ years ahead) cannot be bribed today with military orders. We have other cards up our sleeve. Lets talk about military bribes when the time comes (i.e when Tanche III is ready and when technically Turkey is ready to join EU)

4 Its same for all NATO countries that buy the aircraft , and it would be pretty same for Eurofighter. Do you think that they would share everything they know all the source codes just for an order of 80 aircraft. I see this as a marketing bluff used by Alenia . Do you think we have access to sourcecodes of F-16? IMO For Turkey the main priorities are to be able to update the EW library at home and secondarily to install locally designed arms into existing fleet.

5 Turkey has already secured 5 bn $ worth of workload in the project, half the cost of project estimation. There wont be a final assembly but many parts will be produced only in Turkey.. Including the planes that will be sold to other NATO ocuntries.

6 Who cares, we are a partner in the project and will make gains from it when sales to other countries are made. Do you think Ef-2000 will reach the sales levels of F-35? You are dreaming.

I dont want to comment too much on EF-2000. Its an amazing plane. Its the best out there today. But what it offers both politically and technically is not superior to JSF even in equal prices.

 

[contedicavour]

What is bizarre in this F35 vs Typhoon confrontation for the Turkish new planes market in replacement of Phantoms is that my country's Alenia Finmeccanica (leader for Typhoon consortium when we are talking sales to Turkey, as the UK BAE is for Saudi Arabia) stands to gain whether Turkey takes Typhoon or F35 ... because we're going to build & assemble both types of planes (or to be correct, we are now assembling Typhoons and will assemble F35s as of 2012 in Cameri/Novara airbase).
It's rare to see such a market situation...
Anyway, Turkey is free to decide what it feels is best for its procurement policy. Though it won't be able to afford to replace F4s and F16s with F35s at 1:1 rate, so a legitimate question is whether going 100% on F35s makes good sense.

cheers

 

[Grand Danois]

What is bizarre in this F35 vs Typhoon confrontation for the Turkish new planes market in replacement of Phantoms is that my country's Alenia Finmeccanica (leader for Typhoon consortium when we are talking sales to Turkey, as the UK BAE is for Saudi Arabia) stands to gain whether Turkey takes Typhoon or F35 ... because we're going to build & assemble both types of planes (or to be correct, we are now assembling Typhoons and will assemble F35s as of 2012 in Cameri/Novara airbase).
It's rare to see such a market situation...
Anyway, Turkey is free to decide what it feels is best for its procurement policy. Though it won't be able to afford to replace F4s and F16s with F35s at 1:1 rate, so a legitimate question is whether going 100% on F35s makes good sense.

cheers

Tyrkey is likely to want its own assembly line.

Question for Europe is: How many assembly lines will there be? BAE in UK, Fokker in Holland and Alenia in Italy? And then one in Tyrkey?

 

[Grand Danois]

What is bizarre in this F35 vs Typhoon confrontation for the Turkish new planes market in replacement of Phantoms is that my country's Alenia Finmeccanica (leader for Typhoon consortium when we are talking sales to Turkey, as the UK BAE is for Saudi Arabia) stands to gain whether Turkey takes Typhoon or F35 ... because we're going to build & assemble both types of planes (or to be correct, we are now assembling Typhoons and will assemble F35s as of 2012 in Cameri/Novara airbase).
It's rare to see such a market situation...
Anyway, Turkey is free to decide what it feels is best for its procurement policy. Though it won't be able to afford to replace F4s and F16s with F35s at 1:1 rate, so a legitimate question is whether going 100% on F35s makes good sense.

cheers

Turkey is likely to want its own assembly line.

Question for Europe is: How many assembly lines will there be? BAE in UK, Fokker in Holland and Alenia in Italy? And perhaps one in Turkey?

 

[chrisrobsoar]

Turkey is likely to want its own assembly line.

Question for Europe is: How many assembly lines will there be? BAE in UK, Fokker in Holland and Alenia in Italy? And perhaps one in Turkey?

Turkey will not be offered nor get an assembly line from LM for the F-35 or from EF for the Typhoon.

Some sort of offset deal may be an option.

The small number of aircraft and the low value of the deal, make this route a non-starter.




Chris

 

[Grand Danois]

Turkey will not be offered nor get an assembly line from LM for the F-35 or from EF for the Typhoon.

Some sort of offset deal may be an option.

The small number of aircraft and the low value of the deal, make this route a non-starter.

Chris

It was not an entirely genuine question. IIRC the biggest order for F-35s in Europe is likely to be the Dutch, with a bit more than a 100. The rest are 100 and less - comparable to the Turkish numbers. There will be a Battle of the Assembly Lines somewhere in the future.

 

[atilla]

woww a lot ((

lıke ın the news says 10 billion dollars ( woww a lot thıs new defense dpartment was chosen to buılt 80 rescent of turkey needs at home even they combıend most of the defence companıes

NOw ıt ıs sad to hear 10 billion dolars ıs goıng to be spend for thıs projekt

 

[harryriedl]

are you sure about that as the UK are buying a minium of 136 to 150 and they are part of Europe when i last looked.

but i don't actually think the UK is particlarly intersted in an assblerly line although they are looking into it

 

[beleg]

I havent heard or read that Turkey is interested in assembling the aircraft. We are looking for higher off-set deal and parts production rather than assembling our own aircraft.