Libyan military modernization

France is in talks with Libya about modernizing the north African country’s weapons arsenal as part of the defense cooperation deal they renewed in 2005, officials confirmed on Oct. 18.

The armament division of the French defense ministry confirmed contacts had been made and said its head of international relations, Jean-Paul Panier, had recently visited Tripoli.

Arab-language newspaper Al-Hayat on Oct. 17 quoted “informed sources in Paris and Tunis”, the Tunisian capital, as saying France and Libya had made “a big step” towards signing a series of military contracts and clinching the sale to Tripoli of around 20 French-made Airbus airplanes.

If the planes are sold at the Airbus catalogue price, the deal would cost around 1.8 billion euros.

Sources close to the defense talks told AFP the agreement under consideration was “designed essentially to enable Libya to recover the operational capacity it possessed before the international arms embargo” in place from 1986 to 2004.

The talks also dealt with the retrofitting of 38 Mirage F1 jets bought by Libya more than 25 years ago and the installation of modern anti-ship Otomat missiles on patrol boats, the sources said. Otomat missiles are maanufactured by MBDA, a joint venture created by defense firms EADS, BAe Dynamics and Alenia.

The sources declined to indicate whether the negotiations included the purchase of major new military hardware, such as the Rafale fighter jets made by Dassault or military helicopters manufactured by Eurocopter, another subsidiary of EADS.

French defense companies are expected to turn out in force for Libya’s first arms trade fair, Lavex, in Tripoli on December 4-6.


link

possible export order for rafale.
 
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contedicavour

New Member
Everybody is busy trying to sell new hardware to Libya.
Even Blair was in Tripoli a while ago trying to sell Eurofighters to Gheddafi.
The Russians are active in fighters and submarines as well, and we Italians are busy selling helicopters and patrol vessels.
Strangely enough, despite high oil prices, Gheddafi hasn't bought much since the embargo ended.
He might be thinking it's a higher priority to strengthen the police and his own guard against the Islamists and potential coups.

cheers
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Refurbishing & upgrading the Mirage F.1s would be a relatively quick & cheap way of restoring some kind of functional air force. The Moroccan upgrade, with RC400 radar, would enable them to use Mica & AASM. They would even be able to scoop up some more, if they wanted: there are a few dozen sound Mirage F.1s stored in various places.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Refurbishing & upgrading the Mirage F.1s would be a relatively quick & cheap way of restoring some kind of functional air force. The Moroccan upgrade, with RC400 radar, would enable them to use Mica & AASM. They would even be able to scoop up some more, if they wanted: there are a few dozen sound Mirage F.1s stored in various places.
I agree with your assessment, though, with all the oil money Gheddafi has, I would have expected already several MIG29SMT or SU30 ordered already... with potentially a Eurofighter or Rafale order in the pipe for later on...

cheers
 

aaaditya

New Member
from what i have read of ghaddafi he seems to be a pretty smart guy,iam sure he will acquire the right capability for his armed forces in the required numbers and at the right time to give george bush sleepless nights and constipated mornings,i dont think he wants to acquire defence technology in such large quantities as of now , for this will make usa very suspicious of his intentions(the usa are in a trigger happy mood as of now),he would rather use this time to strengthen his diplomatic and economic relations with europe and russia.
 

contedicavour

New Member
from what i have read of ghaddafi he seems to be a pretty smart guy,iam sure he will acquire the right capability for his armed forces in the required numbers and at the right time to give george bush sleepless nights and constipated mornings,i dont think he wants to acquire defence technology in such large quantities as of now , for this will make usa very suspicious of his intentions(the usa are in a trigger happy mood as of now),he would rather use this time to strengthen his diplomatic and economic relations with europe and russia.
Hmm at the moment Gheddafi is an ally of the West (USA included), which is in his own interest, as his enemies are Islamists and coup plotters... since he gave up his WMDs full diplomatic representations have been reestablished, and American and European oil and gas companies are very busy prospecting in the Libyan desert.
Last time Gheddafi was as rich (in terms of oil money) he went on a spending spree even before he completely fell out with the US : in the '70s he had already ordered hundreds of Mirage III and F-1 plus the first of several MIG21, 23 and SU22 (for which deliveries were completed in the early '80s though).
The fact that this time he is much more cautious is in my opinion more due to the fact that it won't be SU-30s that would save him in case of a coup attempt or an Islamist suicide attack...

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
Well It was about time that they modernize some of there equipment, now all they need to do is to try to train someone to properly use this equipment...
Libyans always had more problems whit troop quality then whit equipment they had( Chad is good example of that)...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Hmm at the moment Gheddafi is an ally of the West (USA included), which is in his own interest, as his enemies are Islamists and coup plotters... since he gave up his WMDs full diplomatic representations have been reestablished, and American and European oil and gas companies are very busy prospecting in the Libyan desert.
Last time Gheddafi was as rich (in terms of oil money) he went on a spending spree even before he completely fell out with the US : in the '70s he had already ordered hundreds of Mirage III and F-1 plus the first of several MIG21, 23 and SU22 (for which deliveries were completed in the early '80s though).
The fact that this time he is much more cautious is in my opinion more due to the fact that it won't be SU-30s that would save him in case of a coup attempt or an Islamist suicide attack...

cheers
But perhaps his focus is more on developing Libya and controlling radical elements this time.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #9
i think libyan military modernization is for external threats not the so called "islamist" or radical elements.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
i think libyan military modernization is for external threats not the so called "islamist" or radical elements.
I think you read me wrong.

Because the focus of this military modernization is on external threats, it might not just have the highest of priorities. Meaning no major purchases eg Rafales.
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #11
we should get a better indication on their future plans and purchases later this year during the arms fair.
 

contedicavour

New Member
we should get a better indication on their future plans and purchases later this year during the arms fair.
It will be quite bizarre to see Americans, French, Italians, all other Europeans, not to mention Russians and Chinese, all trying desperately to sell hundreds of jets, MBTs, ships to a regime that was considered renegade only a year ago... things really can evolve fast and positively after all ! This should be a good sign for other nutty regimes around the worlds...

cheers
 
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #13
i would be very surprise if the libyans order any bit ticket items from the US. i think they will stick with the russians and french which is in their best interest.
 

contedicavour

New Member
i would be very surprise if the libyans order any bit ticket items from the US. i think they will stick with the russians and french which is in their best interest.
Makes sense. Russian material costs less at comparable levels of performance, and the French are ready to offer very high discounts to get the Rafale exported. Latest rumours on the Rafale is that France might be negotiating with Saudi Arabia so that Saudi pays for a Rafale squadron to be delivered to Morocco ... just to give an idea of how far they're going ;)

As far as Italy is concerned, I think we've got good chances of exporting OPVHs (Comandanti), FACs (Saettia-derived), helos (AB139 and/or NH90), trainer jets (though probably not the M349), C27J, VTLMs, 6x6 Puma or 8x8 Centauro (tank destroyer and/or the VBC variant).

cheers
 

icelord

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
It may take a while before the US fully opens trade and military equipment, perhaps they will wait for some reforms in Government or army...HAHAHA yeah right, they just know they can't afford it!
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
BAE Systems have been in Libya now for the past several years, mainly concentrating on work related to getting the civilian aviation infrastructure their back in business.

However, there are two rumours that have been circulating for a while now: One, that Hawk 100 series LIFT has been offered to the Libyan Air Force. The second rumour allegedly involves the transfer of Saudi's second-hand Tornado ADV interceptors, 19 of which are being handed back to BAE as part of the Typhoon deal.

Hawk is possible, though I think Italian tranier manufacturers are much better placed for an order. As for the second rumour - I'll believe that when I see it!
 

contedicavour

New Member
BAE Systems have been in Libya now for the past several years, mainly concentrating on work related to getting the civilian aviation infrastructure their back in business.

However, there are two rumours that have been circulating for a while now: One, that Hawk 100 series LIFT has been offered to the Libyan Air Force. The second rumour allegedly involves the transfer of Saudi's second-hand Tornado ADV interceptors, 19 of which are being handed back to BAE as part of the Typhoon deal.

Hawk is possible, though I think Italian tranier manufacturers are much better placed for an order. As for the second rumour - I'll believe that when I see it!
Given the size of the Libyan airspace, Tornado ADVs are great as long-range patrollers ... so the rumour may be correct after all !

cheers
 

Ibizan Hound

Banned Member
Lybia will have no reliable defense in the fduture. He took blame recently for the bombings and thought that was ll it took for better relationships with the US. Then they told him he had to destroy his missiles with ranges threatning his neighbors(Israel) whi9ch was over 500 SCUDS...... Lybia is weakening. Do you think after wanting him to moderate his threat against israel that they will supply an adequate military supply/assistance?:confused:
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Do you think after wanting him to moderate his threat against israel that they will supply an adequate military supply/assistance?
Well, it would seem that most of the European arms manufacturers are all set to explore future deals with Libya. Of course, there is no way the US is going to supply Libya, but did they ever have much interest in the Libyan market in the first place? The Russians will be be in there like a shot and France especially seems keen to sell...

JANE'S DEFENCE WEEKLY - OCTOBER 25, 2006


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

France eyes Libyan market
J A C Lewis JDW Correspondent
Paris

France hopes to gain up to 20 per cent of Libya's military market but some industry sources are sceptical about the scope of potential sales


France's leading military suppliers are to make their first major push to sell arms to Libya in early December after receiving a green light from the French government to test Tripoli's potential as an export market.

Industry sources said Dassault Aviation, Eurocopter, MBDA, Thales and others would promote their goods in Tripoli from 3-6 December at the 2nd Arab-African Aviation Conference, known in France as LAVEX.

This will be the first time, since a European arms embargo on Libya was lifted in October 2004, that French suppliers have mounted a concerted bid to sell arms to Libya, although some groups have individually put out feelers to Tripoli in recent months.

The turnout has been actively promoted by the French government, which is anxious to increase France's arms exports; these dipped to a low of EUR3 billion (USD3.8 billion) in 2004 but are expected to climb to EUR5 billion in 2006.

The government panel that acts as a watchdog over French military exports, the Commission Interministerielle pour l'Etude des Exportations de Materiel de Guerre (CIEEMG), has authorised suppliers to begin prospecting in Libya. This is the first step in a three-stage process leading to the actual export of weapons.

A spokesman for Dassault Aviation said France's Rafale multirole fighter would be on show in Tripoli but said its presence was primarily to "fly the flag" and that the French constructor did not expect a booking for Rafale from Libya in the foreseeable future.

Sources said the strongest prospect for French suppliers could be a contract to upgrade some or all of the 25 Mirage F1 fighter aircraft that Libya procured in the late 1970s. The upgrade would be carried out by a joint venture between Thales and Safran, dubbed Astrac, that picked up a EUR350 million booking from Morocco in 2005 to upgrade that country's fleet of Mirage F1 fighters and equip them with MICA missiles.

The French could also upgrade Libya's fleet of maritime patrol vessels in a programme that could be partly funded by the EU.

The EU has been prodding Tripoli to do more to halt the flow of illicit immigrants entering southern Italy from Libya.

A government aide said France could hope to gain a 20 per cent share of Libya's military market. However, doubts remain about the scope of that market. "We are sceptical because Tripoli has given no indication of what it wants in the way of military goods, let alone how much it is willing to spend," said a leading industry figure.

Nevertheless, the French appear heartened by a recent Libyan move concerning the civil aviation sector. Libya's Afriqiyah Airways has signed a letter of intent to acquire six wide-body airliners and 14 smaller aircraft from Airbus Industrie in a package worth around USD1.7 billion.
With Libya flush with oil profit and a need for new equipment after a decade of sanctions, to say that they are going to have no reliable defence in the future seems rather hopeful.
 

Ths

Banned Member
Just maybe, Ghadaffi has changed his priorities. His earlier ambitions has brought him nothing but greif. He just might say:"Leadership of the Arab world - oh no! Who could possibly want that?"

The thing to remember about Moammar Ghadaffi is that he gets wiser - and more realistic. The sail-past of equipment just before the second Gulf War just might have convinced him that minding his own sandbox is quite rewarding enough. He knew Arafat, intimate relations with his successor might not be that attactive.
 
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