Libyan military modernization

[F-15 Eagle]

And just how much money do you think Libya has?

BTW, Tu-22M hasn't been built since 1993, so new Tu-22M are rather scarce. Su-25 has also been out of production for many years. It was built in Tbilisi, in Georgia, & production ceased (apart from the Georgians completing some already on the production line, IIRC, & the Russians building a few prototypes of an upgraded version, perhaps using spares stocks) with the fall of the USSR. Also, don't you think that's an awful lot of different types? Perhaps a touch impractical.

That was all based off my own opinion nothing more, in real terms Libya is more likely to get military equipment from France, though how much of it I don't know, first I think they will start out by upgrading their current inventory then buy some new weapons from France or maybe Russia.

 

[Firehorse]

Will they try to replace old Tu-22s with something newer? Since China rejected Tu-22Ms, maybe the Russians will offer them to Libyans?

 

[ROCK45]

French sales

I'll wait until the ink on the Rafale contract dries first if I were the Libyans I would build up my air defense with modern SAM's. What is the best French made SAM or air defense systems Libya could buy? The ink drying comment is because aren't 14 aircraft too small of an order? Doesn’t it sound odd for so many years without buying new aircraft and such a small order might be placed? I don’t know I think a Russian order may get in because why wouldn’t they order a full squadron at least 20/22 aircraft. Something seems wrong with this?

 

[contedicavour]

I'll wait until the ink on the Rafale contract dries first if I were the Libyans I would build up my air defense with modern SAM's. What is the best French made SAM or air defense systems Libya could buy? The ink drying comment is because aren't 14 aircraft too small of an order? Doesn’t it sound odd for so many years without buying new aircraft and such a small order might be placed? I don’t know I think a Russian order may get in because why wouldn’t they order a full squadron at least 20/22 aircraft. Something seems wrong with this?

The best French made SAM is the Franco-Italian SAMP-T based on Aster 30 SAM. Political objections and a high price tag mean Libya will probably just join the list of countries buying S300s from Russia.
Russian jets are almost sure to be procured as the Libyan air force needs at least 100 jets to replace the 350+ former Soviet planes of the 70s and early 80s. Such a procurement of Western jets would cost too much even for oil-and-gas-rich Libya.

cheers

 

[ROCK45]

oil-and-gas-rich Libya

Thanks contedicavour for the French info

Oil-and-gas-rich Libya needs around 100 jet? Well Russia doesn't really produce Mig-23 type jets anymore so either upgraded Fulcrums or Su-30/35 Flankers. I remember reading somewhere that Libya's Su-24s use to get a lot of flying time and were among the best air assets they had.

A littler off the wall and maybe not for Libya since they have money but for a different type client could a upgraded Su-27s in some form. I wonder does Russia has some ex-Flankers for that Su-27M or Su-27M1 upgrade for sale? Maybe a client doesn't need dual purpose platform and wants to save a little kind of how the US Air Force uses there F-15Cs? Or is that too custom?

 

[Chrom]

Thanks contedicavour for the French info

Oil-and-gas-rich Libya needs around 100 jet? Well Russia doesn't really produce Mig-23 type jets anymore so either upgraded Fulcrums or Su-30/35 Flankers. I remember reading somewhere that Libya's Su-24s use to get a lot of flying time and were among the best air assets they had.

A littler off the wall and maybe not for Libya since they have money but for a different type client could a upgraded Su-27s in some form. I wonder does Russia has some ex-Flankers for that Su-27M or Su-27M1 upgrade for sale? Maybe a client doesn't need dual purpose platform and wants to save a little kind of how the US Air Force uses there F-15Cs? Or is that too custom?

Russia certainly have older Su-27 / Su-30K and Mig-29SMT upgrades for sale. But buying unupgraded Su-27 or Su-30k is a little pointless, and upgraded versions are already multirole. Either way, seeing Libya political situation right now - i wouldnt buy any air-related assets except most basic ones. The last thing Libya need is a conflict with Israel - and realisticaly, Israel airforce would be the only target for such AD.

Much better to spend money on army and internal issues to stabilize situation.

 

[ROCK45]

Libya

It's interesting what makes you think if Libya buys new aircraft fighters etc that Israel would see them as a threat right away? I would think first Libya just for themselves want to modernized there air force, it's been years since they bought aircraft. Libya is just starting to be accepted by the west and Europe again attacking a country supported by the US and one that has a very good air force doesn't seem the route they would. Having aircraft that have the range is one thing but having know how and drive to do is it is different. Libya's Su-24s have had the range for years to strike Israel and even in the 70s and 80s when the world situation was different never did it. In this other forum I'm heard some people saying good things about Libya's Su-24s like well maintained, flight hours, and strong pilots. Always like the Su-24 with some upgrades a great platform for Russia's Air Force, but that's another thread.

Second with all the arms being sold to African countries some nearby building up ones military after so many years seems to about normal and expected. I agree money spent internally is always useful don't get me wrong, medical, schools, even new roads are wonderful things and needed. Central and north Africa have become and/or will become the new Middle East. It's a different situation to for southern Europe to deal with because a lot of North Africa countries already have or will have soon the aircraft with the range to reach Europe. I'm not saying African countries will attack countries in Europe just that more will have the means in theory to do so.

Algerian rebels and basically Algeria itself I think is what spark Libya to
realize that there arms forces are little behind the time one might say? I don't know about the Libyan-Sudan border maybe that help heat up the situation a little to. I don't know if the two countries are friendly toward each other maybe somebody could help. I watch a show on the military channel about Africa and the diamond wars and realize there is so much about this region I don't know . I'm going to hunt around this web site and see what I can find.

 

[Firehorse]

Well, I agree with ROCK45. And, since they gave up WMD programs, at least for now, it makes sence to modernize/upgrade their conventional armed forces.

BTW, Tu-22M hasn't been built since 1993, so new Tu-22M are rather scarce.

They won't need new ones- those surplus now in storage will be good enough, and they don't need many of them!
Also, Russia is getting more Su-34s now, and Libyans may get some older Su-24s they replace.
Libya Back in Western Fold?

 

[Chrom]

It's interesting what makes you think if Libya buys new aircraft fighters etc that Israel would see them as a threat right away? I would think first Libya just for themselves want to modernized there air force, it's been years since they bought aircraft. Libya is just starting to be accepted by the west and Europe again attacking a country supported by the US and one that has a very good air force doesn't seem the route they would. Having aircraft that have the range is one thing but having know how and drive to do is it is different. Libya's Su-24s have had the range for years to strike Israel and even in the 70s and 80s when the world situation was different never did it. In this other forum I'm heard some people saying good things about Libya's Su-24s like well maintained, flight hours, and strong pilots. Always like the Su-24 with some upgrades a great platform for Russia's Air Force, but that's another thread.

You understood me wrong. I dont say Israel will see Libya as thereat due to new aircrafts. No. Allthought this is also possible, but ofc Israel will not attack Libya just for that fact. I tryed to tell other thing - WHY would Libya even want to upgrade its airforce by such modern planes??? For what purpose? WHO will be possible target for them?

I have only 1 real candidat - Israel. Only Israel can possibly atack Libya by modern airforce. But really, against Israel all these few new aircrafts mean squat. So in the end, there is no point buying them. They dont have purpose - they are either overkill or useless depending on target.

Algerian rebels and basically Algeria itself I think is what spark Libya to
realize that there arms forces are little behind the time one might say? I don't know about the Libyan-Sudan border maybe that help heat up the situation a little to. I don't know if the two countries are friendly toward each other maybe somebody could help. I watch a show on the military channel about Africa and the diamond wars and realize there is so much about this region I don't know . I'm going to hunt around this web site and see what I can find.

Libya is not exactly Africa i fear

 

[ROCK45]

Mixed

Chrom
Russia certainly have older Su-27 / Su-30K and Mig-29SMT upgrades for sale. But buying unupgraded Su-27 or Su-30k is a little pointless, and upgraded versions are already multirole

I meant early Russia Su-27s which aren't true multirole and more or less slapping a better radar and a engine upgrade and basically turn it into a interceptor kind of like a cheap man's Mig-31. For a custom who just wants a fighter and doesn't need to drop smart weapons. Like how the US uses F-15C purely as a fighter and only in fighter roles. Maybe they could save $10 or $15 million per?

Chrom
You understood me wrong. I dont say Israel will see Libya as thereat due to new aircrafts

You wrote

i wouldnt buy any air-related assets except most basic ones. The last thing Libya need is a conflict with Israel - and realisticaly, Israel airforce would be the only target for such AD.

That's why I wrote - It's interesting what makes you think if Libya buys new aircraft fighters etc that Israel would see them as a threat right away?

Anyway I don't see any real threat between Israel and Libya. I don't agree that if Libya bought new jets that Israel would or could be the only possiable target or reason for buying them. Algeria next store is good enough reason. They need new equipment it's and in the past they never was able to project power I don't see that changing. At least not quickly at least or without a good reason.

Chrome
Libya is not exactly Africa i fear

I agree Libya isn't the power house threat of Africa. I think Sudan down the road and the region near the Red Sea spreading east will cause more problems for Africa in time. The US, Russia, England, French, and the Chinese are pouring hundreds of millions of dollars in arms into Africa something has to give. Like I said before it's going to be the new Middle East

A good portion of the worlds oil supply is just on the other side of the Red Sea so I see that as a possiable threat 15 years from now. But that's just how mind works could be nothing.

 

[Chrom]

That's why I wrote - It's interesting what makes you think if Libya buys new aircraft fighters etc that Israel would see them as a threat right away?

good reason.

.

It is becouse i still wasnt completely woke up after fun night and mistaken Libya for Lebanon. Shit happens. Forget Israel thing please, i wrote nonsense :unknown

But for for subject - Su-27 could be only delivered "as is" - i.e. without upgrades or as "SM" variant which is more or less multirole. Noone will develop new upgrade option for such cheap and small contract - it will defeat the "cheap" purpose at first place. Without upgrades Su-27 is too old to be effective and will require upgrade right away anyway

 

[radiosilence]

Janes is reporting that Russia will sell Libya

S-300 PMU2 Favorit; about 20 Tor M1 and Buk M1-2 anti-aircraft missile systems; two aircraft squadrons - one Mikoyan MiG-29 SMT and one Sukhoi Su-30 MK; and several dozen Mil Mi-17, Mi-35 and Kamov Ka-52 helicopters

Not a bad deal for about 2.5 billion dollars.

 

[ROCK45]

unofficial

From a Russian source today I was reading about building a train line and natural gas deals as well, which I think is a signed deal. Doesn't Russia already control most of the natural gas in Europe already? If they nailed down Libya's gas assets that leaves Algeria's natural gas as the other big European gas supplier? I think controlling the natural gas market share in the important part here not the arms deal. One is worth fifty times more over time that's for sure.


This part isn't a signed deal yet.
At Janes web site it says:

Quote
Interfax-AVN said that "according to unofficial information"

Russia has prepared arms contracts for defence exports to Libya, which may exceed USD2.5 billion, according to a report from Russian military news agency Interfax-AVN on 14 April.

Citing an industry source, Interfax-AVN said that "a set of contracts for the export of Russian aircraft, anti-aircraft missile systems, naval and army weaponry to Libya may be signed in the near future. All the technical and financial formalities have been co-ordinated. The total cost of the contracts may exceed USD2.5 billion."

Interfax-AVN said that "according to unofficial information", the list of potential armaments for export to Libya includes: "several squadrons" of Russian anti-aircraft missile system, including the S-300 PMU2 Favorit; about 20 Tor M1 and Buk M1-2 anti-aircraft missile systems; two aircraft squadrons - one Mikoyan MiG-29 SMT and one Sukhoi Su-30 MK; and several dozen Mil Mi-17, Mi-35 and Kamov Ka-52 helicopters.

There are also plans to sign contracts for the modernisation of Soviet-made weaponry, which makes up nearly 90 per cent of Libya's armaments.
165 of 442 words
© 2008 Jane's Information Group
End of non-subscriber extract

Link
http://www.janes.com/news/defence/business/jdi/jdi080416_1_n.shtml

 

[Feanor]

There has been a contract for railroad construction cited at 3.5 billion (2.2 billion euro). That would make it more major then the weapon deal.