Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[BilalK]

A fine example of pathetic Journalism!

I particularly like the way (Sarcasm) the previous article (posted by Meh) was authored. He/She not only tore apart different stories from different sources he/she even took these extracts from different points in time stretching back couple of months, Completely disregarding linear nature of the story. No Integrity at all. My best guess is that the writer has an agenda to push through.

Can we possibly get a source posted here aswell!! So that we’re aware in the future where this rubbish would flow from!

It is not so much the article that ticks me off - but rather the readers' inability to do some additional research. These folks act like sheep in a heard - and none of them are willing to go to some depth and just think. Not only do they discount the objective statements given by generals - but formulate their own and insult people who have worked in this certain field for 20+ years.

Here is an article from the PakDef E-Reporter;

Link-16
Link-16 (Multifunctional Information Distribution System-Low Volume Terminals) is a secure data link system which uses precise time to provide; Communication, Navigation & Identification (CNI). Link 16, military aircraft as well as ships and army units may exchange their tactical picture in real time. Link 16 is defined as one of the digital
services of the Multifunctional Information Distribution System (MIDS) in the Standardization Agreement STANAG 5516. It is a secure, high-speed digital data link. One important added feature of Link-16 is the digital storage memory bank which retains all the information shared by all players in warfare arena, therefore, eliminating the usage of Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) which are used in advanced integrated defensive electronic warfare and electronic warfare & coordination. Link 16 already has all sensors and shooters platforms in place. It provides high performance command & control for moving and relocating targets. Its navigation capability is an adjunct to GPS and built for precision guided weapons. Jam-resistant Link-16 radios automatically exchange
battlefield information - particularly locations of friendly and enemy aircraft, ships and ground forces - among themselves in a long-range, line-of-sight network. For example, air surveillance tracking data from
an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) aircraft can be instantly shared with fighter aircraft and air defense units. More than a dozen countries have installed Link 16 terminals on over 19 different land, sea, and air platforms, making it an interoperability success story. For example: An F-16 pilot will be able to see exactly what appears on the Erieye (PAF recently signed a deal to buy 6 or 7 of this system)
terminals without turning on his radar. Through this system, a pilot can not only see up to several hundred miles but also distinguish between friends, foes, and his wingman.

The targets can be designated by the Erieye operator and pilot fires the missile without turning on his radar.

 

[birdofprey]

....and the sheep keep on shitting; Austria agreed to pay 2.6bn USD for 18 Eurofighters - so get your facts straight before making half thought comments like that. BTW, Saudi Arabia will pay 20bn USD for the maintenance for 72 Eurofighters for 20-25 years; if you do the math, that is the PAF's annual budget for 20 years.

ahoy! what is the tune here for pissed off red neck!
i said one squadoron meaning 18 planes! and you did proved your self worong "2.6bn USD for 18 EF-2000" isnt 3 bn USD more then enough for PAF to maintain 18 EF??? As far as the KSA EF-2000 deal goes, it comes with enough spare parts to mentaine the whole EF inventory for couple of decades!
and stop using the term "sheep" "heard"

 

[birdofprey]

The F-16's you are talking about. Yeah they don't even have offensive ability and lack other very important components that WERE suppose to come standerd with EVERY F-16 blc 50/52 so you tell me is it even worth paying for. Oh the most important thing of all the air crafts radar might not even be able to detect alied NATO aircrafts.

hey come on bro your news is pretty outdated now!

US, Pak resolve differences over F-16 deal

Washington, Oct 2 : Pakistan and the US on Saturday finalised the F-16 deal after resolving mutual differences over airspace and technology swapping restrictions which Washington had placed on the former.

The letter of offer and acceptance was signed in Islamabad on Saturday, which was the last date for final acceptance of the March 25, 2005 offer by the US when the Bush administration announced its decision to sell F-16 aircraft to Pakistan.

"All the differences, on payment installations, on technical restrictions, have been resolved to satisfactory level. Both sides had to accommodate each other before they reached an understanding. Under the deal, even a day's delay could have caused an increase of more than 140 million dollars in the price," the Dawn quoted a diplomatic source as saying.

He further said that there were some differences on the money that Pakistan was required to pay in advance.

The deal is part of a five-billion-dollar arms package for Pakistan, including F-16 fighter jets and an assortment of air and ground weaponry.

The Bush administration has received Congressional approval for selling 18 new F-16 jets to Pakistan. The deal also allows Pakistan to buy an additional 18 new or old F-16s. In July, the US Defence Security Cooperation Agency notified Congress that the F-16s would come with 200 Sidewinder and 500 AIM-120C5 air-to-air missiles plus 800 general purpose 2,000 and 500-pound bombs.

 

[BilalK]

ahoy! what is the tune here for pissed off red neck!
i said one squadoron meaning 18 planes! and you did proved your self worong "2.6bn USD for 18 EF-2000" isnt 3 bn USD more then enough for PAF to maintain 18 EF??? As far as the KSA EF-2000 deal goes, it comes with enough spare parts to mentaine the whole EF inventory for couple of decades!
and stop using the term "sheep" "heard"

Genius, if you learnt a bit of common sence - you would've figure out that it would take Saudi Arabia needs to pay 15-20bn USD to maintain the Eurofighters for a couple of decades. The PAF is not going to fly planes for one year and throw them out - it will be flying them for 25-30 years; to maintain them - so its pilots could fly for a respectable amount of hours - it would cost the PAF 2-3bn USD to maintain one squadron for 25-30 years.

BTW, there is a big difference between buying an aircraft and maintaining it; the PAF could buy the Eurofighters for 3bn USD - but like I said above, maintaining it for 25-30 years is a whole new issue. Now as time goes on, the PAF will have to buy another 2-3 squadrons of Eurofighters. By the time its time to retire these fighters, the PAF would have spent well over 15bn USD to maintain them. Now my little sheep friend, use the pebble sized jelly in your heard and do some thinking before making half thought comments like the one above.

BTW, you're the lamb of the herd...easier to pick off than the rest.

 

[falconlover81]

ok i know what the deal consists of... 36 new block+ f-16 $3billion meaning 82 million dollors per unit! OMG :shudder you can easily operate one EF-2000 squaderon or two! WTF mate, r we beeing tugged by uncle sam??

and what the hell is FC-20??? never heard of that..

bird the answer is simple and easy see u r buying an aircraft for the first time hence u dont have the infrastructure as well as the training to support ur buy right as well as if u read the DSCA document u will know that it comes with a lot of additional engines radars etc so on the whole i would say that it is quite a fair deal on the other hand if we al ready operated f-16 block 50/52+ then the price would have been much more cheaper and as for ur EF-2000 it costs about 100 million dollars a piece so now u can calculate the price that is approx equal to 3.6 billion dollars for 36 ef-2000
fc-20 might be an improved j-10 as indicated by bilal it can have better engines tvc aesa radar all we can do is just speculate about this aircraft

 

[falconlover81]

guys i just dont understand why u keep repeating the same old phrases "its not going to have offensive capabilities" for god's sake plz try to understand that thecurrent f-16 deal just lacks one component called the DRFM and it can be made available through back channels as indicated by shamim sahab and plz dont quote hillen's speech as ur source i am getting sick of seing it again and again and to respond very bluntly to the above said speech i would say its pure "bullshit"

 

[birdofprey]

Genius, if you learnt a bit of common sence - you would've figure out that it would take Saudi Arabia needs to pay 15-20bn USD to maintain the Eurofighters for a couple of decades. The PAF is not going to fly planes for one year and throw them out - it will be flying them for 25-30 years; to maintain them - so its pilots could fly for a respectable amount of hours - it would cost the PAF 2-3bn USD to maintain one squadron for 25-30 years.

BTW, there is a big difference between buying an aircraft and maintaining it; the PAF could buy the Eurofighters for 3bn USD - but like I said above, maintaining it for 25-30 years is a whole new issue. Now as time goes on, the PAF will have to buy another 2-3 squadrons of Eurofighters. By the time its time to retire these fighters, the PAF would have spent well over 15bn USD to maintain them. Now my little sheep friend, use the pebble sized jelly in your heard and do some thinking before making half thought comments like the one above.

BTW, you're the lamb of the herd...easier to pick off than the rest.

even KSA's 72 EF-2000 alone is not even worth $15 billion, Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K. will spend about $17 billion to buy 236 planes so how the hell 18 ef-2000 will cost $15 billion to Maintain for couple of decads!! lets say if PAF does go ahead with the EF deal they have got KSA's support for spare parts..
the Austrian 18 EF-2000 $2.6 billion package includes, training for pilots and ground crew, logistics, maintenance, and a simulator...

ALRIGHT, birdofprey. deleted some of your not so pleasantries. If you are going to debate, do so. PERSONAL ATTACKS ARE NOT PERMITTED

 

[BilalK]

even KSA's 72 EF-2000 alone is not even worth $15 billion, Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K. will spend about $17 billion to buy 236 planes so how the hell 18 ef-2000 will cost $15 billion to Maintain for couple of decads!! lets say if PAF does go ahead with the EF deal they have got KSA's support for spare parts..
the Austrian 18 EF-2000 $2.6 billion package includes, training for pilots and ground crew, logistics, maintenance, and a simulator...

Let me break my own post down for you; if you carefully re-read the post you quoted - it will clearly say - Now as time goes on, the PAF will have to buy another 2-3 squadrons of Eurofighters. By the time its time to retire these fighters, the PAF would have spent well over 15bn USD to maintain them.

Each year an air force pays a certain amount to pay to maintain the fighters it operates; this includes basic things such as fuel as well as components. Over an aircraft's life time - it would go through many annual maintenance overhuals; replacement of parts, structural reinforcement, etc, etc. Naturally this would take up a certain amount of money; Saudi Arabia will pay 20-25bn U.S dollars to cover the 72 Eurofighters and their maintenance, training, etc, for 20 or so years. That means, the Saudis calculated that they will spend 15bn USD to simply fly those aircraft for 20 or so years; understand?

The overall Saudi deal is worth 25bn USD; x-amount for the aircraft, and y-amount to actually operate them. x+y=25bn USD. One PAF squadron would be roughly at around 18; divide 25 by four = 6.25bn USD. So the PAF would have to pay 6.25bn USD to keep ONE Eurofighter squadron up and running for 20 or so years. Unless the political situation goes really sour, then the PAF would buy another 2-3 squadrons - it will have to; keeping such a small fleet of expensive fighters is unfeasible. The overall maintenance costs will go up -and by the time the Eurofighters are retired from PAF; the PAF would have spent at least 15bn USD.

Austria's deal includes the infrastructure, logistics, etc to set up the Austrian Air Force for their Eurofighters. However they will spend billions of dollars extra to actually maintain those Eurofighters over their service time.

As for Saudi Arabia helping out Pakistan - that remains to be seen.

 

[birdofprey]

So the PAF would have to pay 6.25bn USD to keep ONE Eurofighter squadron up and running for 20 or so years.

ok what you are saying is to maintain 18 EF for couple of decades it will take pakistani government $6.3 billion, wright?

$6.3 billion divide it by 20years= $315 million per year..
$315 million divide it by 18= meaning it will take ~$17 million to maintain a single unit per year?? come on man... you got to be kiddin me!

 

[tphuang]

ok what you are saying is to maintain 18 EF for couple of decades it will take pakistani government $6.3 billion, wright?

$6.3 billion divide it by 20years= $315 million per year..
$315 million divide it by 18= meaning it will take ~$17 million to maintain a single unit per year?? come on man... you got to be kiddin me!

There is also the start up cost of actually purchasing the typhoon, I think Kurt Plummer will probably be more aware of the cost of that than I am. Do a search on this forum for Kurt's posts. I think you will be better informed at that time. But definitely, purchasing something that you already have infrastructure and training program for is cheaper than a new platform. btw, you can toss away this dream of purchasing EF, since the next plane of PAF's list is J-10.

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys since you are dicussing about the ef2000 typhoon ,i suggest you check out this cool website on the ef2000,it is the official ef2000 website and has detailed information on every aspect of this ultra modern fighter9i dont know if this website has been posted before).

here check out this link:

www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

also i believe that the eurofighter can be purchased at a very low cost ,however much of the technology associated with this combat aircraft would not be available and it would be just like any other modern combat jet.

 

[webmaster]

hey guys since you are dicussing about the ef2000 typhoon ,i suggest you check out this cool website on the ef2000,it is the official ef2000 website and has detailed information on every aspect of this ultra modern fighter9i dont know if this website has been posted before).

here check out this link:

www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

also i believe that the eurofighter can be purchased at a very low cost ,however much of the technology associated with this combat aircraft would not be available and it would be just like any other modern combat jet.

That website is not official... it is maintained (very well) by one of the members who lurks around here on DT forums.

The official website is here:
http://www.eurofighter.com/

 

[BilalK]

ok what you are saying is to maintain 18 EF for couple of decades it will take pakistani government $6.3 billion, wright?

$6.3 billion divide it by 20years= $315 million per year..
$315 million divide it by 18= meaning it will take ~$17 million to maintain a single unit per year?? come on man... you got to be kiddin me!

It might be hard to swallow, but its the truth my friend; if it was 1/5 cost, then the PAF may have seriously considered it. Remember, the PAF's annual budget covers for maintenance for all of its equipment - and its about 1bn USD. To spend 300mn USD on a single squadron - and expect to keep up else with everything else is simply not possible.

Although the PAF's budget will increase in the future; just remember that it would have to maintain AEW&C, long-range SAMs and an overall more expensive air force. Like tphuang said; the next plane on the PAF's list is J-10 - I think it would only acquire them if it gets soft financial loan agreements from China, which is definite.

 

[birdofprey]

That website is not official... it is maintained (very well) by one of the members who lurks around here on DT forums.

The official website is here:
http://www.eurofighter.com/

webmaster
can u give us an answer regarding to the EF cost for running it up for couple of decades.. will it realy take over 6.5 billion??

 

[BilalK]

webmaster
can u give us an answer regarding to the EF cost for running it up for couple of decades.. will it realy take over 6.5 billion??

If the Eurofighter was any cheaper to maintain - then I can assure you the PAF would have seriously considered it for purchase. The only way the PAF would decide to procure Eurofighter is if the IAF decides to procure 126 aircraft valued 10-12bn USD.

 

[aaaditya]

If the Eurofighter was any cheaper to maintain - then I can assure you the PAF would have seriously considered it for purchase. The only way the PAF would decide to procure Eurofighter is if the IAF decides to procure 126 aircraft valued 10-12bn USD.

actually uk offered india the ef2000 typhoon for as low as 37.5 million dollars per aircraft during the initial stages of the 126 aircraft mrca deal when india overlooked the ef2000 typhoon,however it was to be a grossly stripped down version without several of the capabilities of the tranche3 version,it would still be a top class aircraft atleast comparable to the mirage2000-5.

this modification is possible since the ef2000 is a highly modular aircraft which can be considerably modified.this has been mentioned in the website that i have posted .the ef2000 tranche 3 the most advanced version of the ef2000 is expected to cost around 80-100 million dollars per aircraft.

 

[mysterious]

Any news update as to the status of F-16s and other procurement considerations? Suddenly, it seems, things have gone hush hush.

 

[SABRE]

Any news update as to the status of F-16s and other procurement considerations? Suddenly, it seems, things have gone hush hush.

Most of the Defence related officials in Islamabad have gone against the F-16 purchase. They say only 18 C/D should be purchased & no 2nd hands. Not many people are happy with the deal. May be the officials are more in favor of J-10 than F-16. Recently high ranking PLAAF & other defence related Chinese officials also visited Pakistan & the anit_F-16 lobby continues to grow.

I can only tell you this myst. Something fishy is going on & as long it is going on you wont get much of a news.

 

[aaaditya]

Most of the Defence related officials in Islamabad have gone against the F-16 purchase. They say only 18 C/D should be purchased & no 2nd hands. Not many people are happy with the deal. May be the officials are more in favor of J-10 than F-16. Recently high ranking PLAAF & other defence related Chinese officials also visited Pakistan & the anit_F-16 lobby continues to grow.

I can only tell you this myst. Something fishy is going on & as long it is going on you wont get much of a news.

thats interesting ,has the f-18 c/d been officially offered?

i dont think that the f-18c/d would offer any advantage over the f-16,the super hornet would be a different matter,also does pakistan have any experience operating the f-18's?

 

[old faithful]

read the post more carefully,he never mentioned F/A18 just 18xC/D,s and no 2nd hand aircraft.....meaning 18xF16c/d....