Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

aaaditya

New Member
also the ef2000 costs around 75-100million dollars/per aircraft,it has a mechanically scanned radar and a problematic 23mm mauser cannon,i believe they offered it to india hoping to integrate it with either selex aesa or the nora(to be used in the gripen) as well as fix problems with the cannon,this can be achieved in the timeframe for the indian mrca deal(5-10 years) but not in the near future.

also i dont think saudi arabia has been given a complete transfer of technology or source codes.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
There is no truth or even a remote possibility that Pakistan will buy EF-2000s. These are nothing but speculation or just wishful thinking by some that Pakistan will buy them and then posted as if it is a real possibility.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
aaaditya said:
also i dont think saudi arabia has been given a complete transfer of technology or source codes.
They've never been given ToT or source codes by the US, French, or UK for any hi-tech gear.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
aaaditya said:
also the ef2000 costs around 75-100million dollars/per aircraft,it has a mechanically scanned radar and a problematic 23mm mauser cannon,i believe they offered it to india hoping to integrate it with either selex aesa or the nora(to be used in the gripen) as well as fix problems with the cannon,this can be achieved in the timeframe for the indian mrca deal(5-10 years) but not in the near future.

also i dont think saudi arabia has been given a complete transfer of technology or source codes.
What's the supposed problem with the Bk27 27mm gun? I've never heard of it giving problems on the 1500+ other aircraft it's been fitted to, or the naval mounts. I thought one of the reasons for selecting it was its outstanding reliability. After making over 3000, I expect they should have any bugs ironed out.

http://www.airforce-technology.com/contractors/cannons/mauser2/


The CAPTOR radar is mechanically scanned, but probably the best mechanically scanned radar in the world, with a longer range than some AESA fighter radars. There has never been any proposal to fit it with NORA, or anything derived from it. It has been tested with an AESA antenna from Euradar (the consortium which builds CAPTOR - it includes Selex), with ca 1500 T/R modules. Current production radars going into Typhoons are, according to the manufacturers, AESA-ready. Fitting the antenna for flight tests earlier this year (there had been previous ground tests) was a plug-and-play operation. They describe it as a "field modification".

The AESA version is called CAESAR (Captor AESA Radar). It could be put in production quite quickly if someone was willing to pay for it. At present, the chief obstacle to development is financial. There isn't enough money to push it along quickly.
 
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BilalK

New Member
pshamim said:
There is no truth or even a remote possibility that Pakistan will buy EF-2000s. These are nothing but speculation or just wishful thinking by some that Pakistan will buy them and then posted as if it is a real possibility.
I agree, fighters like EF-2000 and Rafale are simply out of Pakistan's financial capability; buying them is one thing, what about the maintenance costs? Quite frankly, I doubt the PAF will get a next generation fighter from the West. Gripen may be the only technical/financial option, but surely not a good political one.
 

mysterious

New Member
tphuang said:
how cheap can you get the typhoons for? And so far, I have only heard speculations that they will be offered to Pakistan. Until something concrete materials, there really is no point keep on speculating like this.
Not as cheap as PAF would like obviously. I was merely talking about the possibilities to be considered. It is quite apparent that Typhoon is too expensive for the PAF resources. But I'm confused as to why the Typhoon was being demonstrated to PAF personnel in Italy (DefenceNews.com reported it) if they weren't exactly offered to them in the first place.
 

TheDefender

New Member
BilalK said:
I agree, fighters like EF-2000 and Rafale are simply out of Pakistan's financial capability; buying them is one thing, what about the maintenance costs? Quite frankly, I doubt the PAF will get a next generation fighter from the West. Gripen may be the only technical/financial option, but surely not a good political one.
Typhoons are costly and the case is also same with the Rafales and the only fighter which is remaining is JAS 39 Grippen , which is inexpensive but it uses a lot of US equipment engine etc and it isant superior to F-16 block 52 and higher so it would be foolish to buy a plane having US equipment on it.Firstly Pakistan must not struck this third fighter into US hands and it must be be out or US influences.And Secondly when Pakistan can get the second hand F-16s for free ( excluding the $$ for the upgradation ) then why should buy the comparable aircraft from another country having the same capebilities.
Now there are two options for Pakistan:

1.As there are drawbacks is the Grippen deal so there would be two planes i.e the EF and Rafale . IMO Pakistan should go for that plane which is having less influential countries in its manufacture and and in its sale,there can be problems in aquiring the weapon system and the radar one country may not be thinking that Paksitan should be given high tech radar and other must be thinking to give it to pakistan and there can be same case with the weapon system.So after seeing this the Rafales seems to be a decent option so forget the cost and get it.Paksitan would not be buying these planes in 1-2 years they will be delivered in 2-10 years so there would be a lot of moeny coming in Paksitan's treasury in the coming years.

2. Pakistan should buy more J-10s and should take part in the future projects with China simple.
 

aaaditya

New Member
i dont think that the rafale would be quite that costly to maintain,particularly as pakistan has experience and basic infrastructure for french aircrafts,though the operational costs of the rafale may be slightly high beause of its twin engined design.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
with the delys and uncertainties of the F16 deal (rumor has it that US congress is still in doubt as to approuval),I think pakistan should concentrate on an alternative sooner rather than later,be it J/F10 or Rafale....
 
old faithful said:
with the delys and uncertainties of the F16 deal (rumor has it that US congress is still in doubt as to approuval),
the sale has been approved. congress had a month to block the sale but the deadline pass without stopping the sale. there might be some announcement with regard to the f16 deal later this month when musharaff will be visiting the US.
 

BilalK

New Member
Pakistan may get a good discount on the F-16s in the form of debt write-offs or subsidizations. If subsidized at least 50% - it will leave another 2.5bn USD to spend on Air Defence, JF-17 and Plus One; or more F-16s.
 

kams

New Member
Pak puts off F-16 deal

Pakistan has put off signing the letter of acceptance (LOA) for purchase of 36 F-16 fighters from the US after complaints from its air force that the planes were "bereft" of vital electronic warfare systems.
After the complaints, Pakistan's Ministry of Defence asked the US Secretary of Air Force International Affairs, which is the coordinator and supervisor for the project, to extend the signing of LOA until December 31, reports The Friday Times, a Pakistani weekly.

The last extension was sought on July 31 this year.

The deal was apparently deferred partly due to conditions imposed by the US on the operations of F-16s and the "absence" of vital electronic capabilities from these platforms. Musharraf was expected to take up these issues when he meets President George W Bush in Washington today.

"So the signing deal is off. Perhaps President Musharraf will try to extract some concessions during his meeting with Bush. But the entire deal is likely to spark much more debate and change before finalisation," the weekly quoted a Pakistani official as saying.

According to the report, the F-16s were being offered without some Electronic Warfare programme capabilities for their radar warning receiver (RWR). "This means that they will have pre-installed threat library and its RWR will only be able to identify Non-NATO aircraft," it quoted an expert as saying.

"Any NATO aircraft attacking these F-16s using Beyond Visual Range capability could take them out easily simply because these F-16s would not know when they would be locked in sight of the attacking adversary and hence would be unable to take evasive measure," he said.

However, PAF Chief Air Marshal Tanvir Ahmed denied reports that there was any bar on operational deployment of F-16s being purchased at the cost of about five billion dollars from the US.

Ahmed said US authorities have not imposed any conditions on operational capability. "We will be fully empowered to use our platforms whenever we want and however we want," he told The News.

He said the Pakistan Air Force would use the F-16s for all sorts of offensive and defensive sorties carrying conventional weapons. Earlier reports said US has excluded the equipment necessary to carry nuclear weapons from the package being offered to Pakistan.

As for "arrival" of US personnel at the bases where the F-16s are going to be placed, he said it was not something surprising or new. US personnel had also come along when Pakistan bought F-104 Starfighters in 1960 and F-16s in 1983. The same was true of France and China, who sent their personnel to provide PAF technical assistance during early days.

The US does not want to transfer technology to any other country, specially countries with which Pakistan had defence cooperation, he said without directly referring to China.

The Friday Times report said that US was concerned about transfer of technology to China as Beijing is considered to be an expert in reverse engineering. Pakistan and China are currently developing JF-17 Thunder aircraft.
Pak puts off F-16 deal
 

WAR

New Member
No bar on use of new F-16s, says air chief

Link:
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=3191


No bar on use of new F-16s, says air chief


By Mayed Ali

ISLAMABAD: Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mahmood Ahmed has said there is no bar on the operational employment of the new F-16s Pakistan intends to acquire from the US under the proposed deal.

In an exclusive interview with The News panel, the Air Chief Marshal made it clear that the US authorities had not imposed any restriction on the operational capability of the Fighting Falcons Pakistan would purchase from the US. “We will be fully empowered to use our platforms wherever we want and however we want.”

The News panel comprised Salim Bokhari, Mayed Ali and Naeem Tahir. He said the PAF would use the F-16s for all sorts of defensive and offensive sorties, carrying all conventional weaponry in its inventory. The air chief set aside the apprehensions attached to the possible deal with the US in this regard.

As for arrival of the US personnel, he explained that this was not something surprising or a new phenomenon. The US personnel had also come along with the F-104 Starfighters in 1960s and F-16s in 1983. The same was true for other nations like France and China, who had sent their skilled personnel with the consignments of Mirage III and F-6 (Mig-19) and F-7 P and PGs (Mig-21s) for providing technical assistance to the PAF during the early days of induction.

He said the US wouldn’t want the technology transfer to any other country, especially those working in cooperation with Pakistan in the field of defence. Tanvir was all praise for the F-16s, Block 52 versions and the upgraded midlife platforms. He looked forward to smooth completion of the deal.

He believed the induction of latest Fighting Falcons would give an instant lift to the PAF capabilities in defending its territorial integrity. He firmly believed the induction of these planes would balance the skies in the subcontinent. Highlighting the features of the new F-16s, he explained that the relatively bigger aircraft (Block 52) has a more powerful engine with more thrust, more fuel carrying capacity along with air-to-air refuelling capacity, more hard points with more loading capacity, long-range radar, very effective avionics, laser, and ECM pods. The aircraft would also have recce cameras, night-vision capability, smart weaponry, including BVR missiles (AMRAAM), sidewinders, and other smart ammunition. The air chief was of the opinion that the Fighting Falcons would help the PAF grow into future, giving the air force the liberty to take on the threats in the air, over land and sea, day or night in all weather conditions.

Since the aircraft would not need extended logistic arrangements as these were already in operation in the country, it would give the PAF extra financial liberty for upgrading other equipment on the ground.

The air chief was also enthusiastic about the induction of SAAB Erieye Airborne Early Warning System (AWACS) platforms, which would become a force-multiplier. He believed the Erieye was as good as the Phalcon radar platforms with better agility, courtesy the SAAB 2000 aircraft.

In addition to this, the PAF is also awaiting the delivery of air-to-air refuelling system. The air chief hinted at acquisition of platforms from Ukraine. He also informed that the PAF was working on a pilot project for upgrading some existing aircraft for the purpose of aerial refuelling.

Once these aircraft got the capability, these would be integrated with the fleet of fuel-tankers. The success of this programme would help the PAF move forward, he said. The air chief was of the view that since air combat and superiority is becoming the name of the game in the modern-day warfare, the PAF has to be equipped and upgraded accordingly. In a world where air-land strategy is taking over from the conventional mode of war, the PAF should have the required technology and workforce to meet future challenges.

==============

Another version. This time from a responsible person, the PAF Chief, who is quite satisfied with the deal. He rejected the apprehensions regarding operational capabilities of would-be inducted Falcons.
 

adsH

New Member
gf0012-aust said:
They've never been given ToT or source codes by the US, French, or UK for any hi-tech gear.

As far as i'm aware Source codes are not a necessity to maintain autonomy. There are documentations that accompany a platform, having the right infrastructure to integrate a compatible system is the real "TOT" as far as i think.

I doubt anyone would part with Source codes since its absolutely unnecessary for an operator to have them. Even if it has the ability to understand them, i doubt it would have the capability to manipulate it or even improve it other then debug field issues.

A Black box spec with complete system specs would be suitable,

From what i understand is that most users who claim to integrate new weapon systems from other vendors, have either had extensive support from the system/Platform supplier or have either done a Half arsed job, ie not followed the correct protocols. I believe it is absolutely necessary for the platform supplier to participate in any new upgrades or integration. Unfortunately Procuring is a much cheaper and simpler process then integrating, E.g. simple system soft flashes for systems upgrades from OEMs can cost huge sums, Certainly extorted prices.


Comments would be appreciated!
 

adsH

New Member
kams said:

This is ridiculous! the only thing they would be unable to do would be Identify NATO IFF codes, thats understandable, why would NATO hand-over its Air Assets Identification codes, it won't prevent PAF from Realizing that there is a Threat in its FIR, since it would be operating Ground radars along with its own IFF codes with the Eyries.

this is ridiculous i doubt PAF has any grievance about it in the first place.
 

kams

New Member
adsH said:
This is ridiculous! the only thing they would be unable to do would be Identify NATO IFF codes, thats understandable, why would NATO hand-over its Air Assets Identification codes, it won't prevent PAF from Realizing that there is a Threat in its FIR, since it would be operating Ground radars along with its own IFF codes with the Eyries.

this is ridiculous i doubt PAF has any grievance about it in the first place.
I have my doubts too. The reason I posted the story is, its original source is Friday Times of Pakistan which is quoting a PAF official. The report is also saying signing of LOA has been put off till December. Many of you guys have first hand info. about PAF so I thought may be you guys can correct the inaccuracy in the report, if any.
 

adsH

New Member
kams said:
I have my doubts too. The reason I posted the story is, its original source is Friday Times of Pakistan which is quoting a PAF official. The report is also saying signing of LOA has been put off till December. Many of you guys have first hand info. about PAF so I thought may be you guys can correct the inaccuracy in the report, if any.

I do think PAF wouldn't get the EW Package usually installed on UAF and NATO F-16, since PAF is not a NATO Ally and it does conduct War games with China. so that could be a point of concern for PAF since the Price per-unit would increase if PAF has to negotiate/procure a deal with BAE Systems for there F-16 EW system, similar to the ones sold to the Turks. i suspect they may be engaged in this sort of arrangement, but Pshamim might have to comment on this.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
adsH said:
I do think PAF wouldn't get the EW Package usually installed on UAF and NATO F-16, since PAF is not a NATO Ally and it does conduct War games with China. so that could be a point of concern for PAF since the Price per-unit would increase if PAF has to negotiate/procure a deal with BAE Systems for there F-16 EW system, similar to the ones sold to the Turks. i suspect they may be engaged in this sort of arrangement, but Pshamim might have to comment on this.
Thanks ADSH. I still feel that PAF will end up with the American system probably from Turkish route because it will not require the congressional approval. My take on this is that deferral of LOA has a lot to do with this issue. Pakistan putting a lot of pressure and if they succeed, Turkish route is the only option to supply without creating a controversy before the shipment.

Suggest monitoring transfers to Turkey as many of those may be for Pakistan.
 

BilalK

New Member
uaf said:
Ok now the deal has been put off , what's next ?? ( although i was not a big supporter of such a deal with multiple restrictions )

http://thedailystar.net/2006/09/24/d609241310126.htm

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/Pakistan_puts_off_signing_F-16_deal_with_US_20060926.php

Is it sumthing that relates to J-10 issue as well ??
Has PAF found J-10 very much capable like F-16 and cheaper as well ??
You'll get your answer if you read one of the two articles above :)
 
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