Pakistan Air Force [PAF] News and Discussions

[mysterious]

Most of the Defence related officials in Islamabad have gone against the F-16 purchase. They say only 18 C/D should be purchased & no 2nd hands. Not many people are happy with the deal. May be the officials are more in favor of J-10 than F-16. Recently high ranking PLAAF & other defence related Chinese officials also visited Pakistan & the anit_F-16 lobby continues to grow.

I can only tell you this myst. Something fishy is going on & as long it is going on you wont get much of a news.

With so many 'tags' and 'conditions' attached to the F-16 deal, I'm really not surprised that the anti-F16 lobby continues to grow. On the other hand, acquiring J-10s in large numbers doesn't seem like an effective move to me. We could just as well obtain Gripens while awaiting the J-10C.

 

[SABRE]

With so many 'tags' and 'conditions' attached to the F-16 deal, I'm really not surprised that the anti-F16 lobby continues to grow. On the other hand, acquiring J-10s in large numbers doesn't seem like an effective move to me. We could just as well obtain Gripens while awaiting the J-10C.

There is an offer from Europe for fighter jets as well. But who is offering & what is offered is what I dont know. This much information I gathered from a PAF official who visited my university (Quaid-E-Azam University, Defence & Strategic Studies Department). That offer may be effecting the deal as well. Not to ignore that PAF officials also went to see the EF-2000's flight in Italy.

There are various possibilities & reasons. Personaly I think buying only 18 to 20 F-16C/Ds & upgrading the rest is better idea. PAF should go for European platform which is also capable of carrying American weapon system.

 

[uaf]

There is an offer from Europe for fighter jets as well. But who is offering & what is offered is what I dont know. This much information I gathered from a PAF official who visited my university (Quaid-E-Azam University, Defence & Strategic Studies Department). That offer may be effecting the deal as well. Not to ignore that PAF officials also went to see the EF-2000's flight in Italy.

There are various possibilities & reasons. Personaly I think buying only 18 to 20 F-16C/Ds & upgrading the rest is better idea. PAF should go for European platform which is also capable of carrying American weapon system.

Excellent news as far as myself is concern I always was not a big fan of such deal F-16 is a good aircraft But the sanction in the past and the conditions put up for this deal should be enough for a LESSON America is not credible at all and further I have read news ( don’t know if that’s true or not) India has short listed their 126 Mrca deal the new list consist of Mirage 2000 , Gripen and of course F-16 Block 60.

Now lets examine the our F-16 deal again “ We can not use F-16s for aggressive purposes against Who “ well you all can guess. But 18 new C/Ds we are buying I think is purely to get up gradation for our F-16 to Mlu position that’s it and it’s a good thing rather than scraping at least we can use them for good 10 years. Looking at this angle it’s a good deal and not going more.

European offer erm that’s a good news what else you know about it ??

Leme say if India goes for Westren plans why can not we buy Su-30 MKi it surely can happen if USA can sell F-16 to both India ( atleast offered ) and Pakistan why can not Russia ..............

 

[powerslavenegi]

Leme say if India goes for Westren plans why can not we buy Su-30 MKi it surely can happen if USA can sell F-16 to both India ( atleast offered ) and Pakistan why can not Russia ..............

Well what you siad is correct in principle ,but practically it is highly unlikely that Russia would ink an arms deal with Pakistan (at least not in next 5 years).Russains have their hands full with contracts from India(easily their largest buyer).By negotiating with pakistan they would be risking all existing and future deals with India.Having said that If deals with Pakistan are financially more attractive then Russians might give it a thought.

Between MKI is the Indian version of Su-30(LRF and other avionics from Israel)

 

[uaf]

Well what you siad is correct in principle ,but practically it is highly unlikely that Russia would ink an arms deal with Pakistan (at least not in next 5 years).Russains have their hands full with contracts from India(easily their largest buyer).By negotiating with pakistan they would be risking all existing and future deals with India.Having said that If deals with Pakistan are financially more attractive then Russians might give it a thought.

Between MKI is the Indian version of Su-30(LRF and other avionics from Israel)

Ok my bad I thought Mki only had Thrust Vectoring

If Pakistan is considering any European offer IF there is any than I don’t think there is any need of Su-30/37 for 5years or so perhaps 10.what I was saying that in Future it could happen and it’s a pretty much possibility the way America and India Moving towards close relationship and Russia and China are on the other side any ways this thread is about PAF

So do any one know what kind of offer PAF has received ?? and what exactly F-20 is ( which PAF chief mentioned in his recent interview ) ??

J-10 is F-10 ok but F-20 there has been many rumors that it’s a twin seat version of F-20 , yesterday I saw a post at sinodefenceforum.com that its actually J-10

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=1546&page=28

What exactly is F-20 ?? erm ....

 

[aaaditya]

Ok my bad I thought Mki only had Thrust Vectoring

If Pakistan is considering any European offer IF there is any than I don’t think there is any need of Su-30/37 for 5years or so perhaps 10.what I was saying that in Future it could happen and it’s a pretty much possibility the way America and India Moving towards close relationship and Russia and China are on the other side any ways this thread is about PAF

So do any one know what kind of offer PAF has received ?? and what exactly F-20 is ( which PAF chief mentioned in his recent interview ) ??

J-10 is F-10 ok but F-20 there has been many rumors that it’s a twin seat version of F-20 , yesterday I saw a post at sinodefenceforum.com that its actually J-10

http://www.sinodefenceforum.com/showthread.php?t=1546&page=28

What exactly is F-20 ?? erm ....

there used to be a us project called f-20 tigershark which was a predecessor.

 

[uaf]

there used to be a us project called f-20 tigershark which was a predecessor.

sorry it is FC-20

Interview with PAF Cehif

Q. What are the options available for PAF to enhance its fleet, and what new fighter types are expected to join PAF in the next five years?

Ans. As I have mentioned earlier, we are keeping all available options open and wants a well balanced multirole jet fighter aircraft. We will be inducting 18 new F-16C/Ds and most probably will use our option of 18 more after the first squadron will be operational. We will also be inducting 26 MLU F-16A/B as well as our existing fleet of 34 aircraft will also undergo the MLU upgrades. 150 JF-17 Thunders and 36 F-10A aircraft will also be joining PAF, and more F-10s can be expected. Most probably we will also purchase FC-20 fighter aircraft from China.

 

[birdofprey]

Excellent news as far as myself is concern I always was not a big fan of such deal F-16 is a good aircraft But the sanction in the past and the conditions put up for this deal should be enough for a LESSON America is not credible at all and further I have read news ( don’t know if that’s true or not) India has short listed their 126 Mrca deal the new list consist of Mirage 2000 , Gripen and of course F-16 Block 60.

Now lets examine the our F-16 deal again “ We can not use F-16s for aggressive purposes against Who “ well you all can guess. But 18 new C/Ds we are buying I think is purely to get up gradation for our F-16 to Mlu position that’s it and it’s a good thing rather than scraping at least we can use them for good 10 years. Looking at this angle it’s a good deal and not going more.

European offer erm that’s a good news what else you know about it ??

Leme say if India goes for Westren plans why can not we buy Su-30 MKi it surely can happen if USA can sell F-16 to both India ( atleast offered ) and Pakistan why can not Russia ..............

try to stay up to date with news of this kind of topics.. pakistan will get F-16s without any restrictions! we can go across eastern country back and forth as much as we want!

 

[isthvan]

What exactly is F-20 ?? erm ....

FC-20 is possible PAF designation for J-10. Same shit as whit FC-1/JF-17, PAF joust like to give new planes names whit higher numbers compared to those they already have in service… I mean you can’t replace F-16 whit F-1 or F-10, it joust doesn’t sounds right

 

[SABRE]

FC-20 is possible PAF designation for J-10.

I never discussed it with my teachers or the PAF officials or the defence officials who visit my university but I am sure that FC-20 is J-10. Usualy PAF only turns "J (Jiang)" to "F (Fighter)" - same meaning. But here "F-10" for PAF seems like an inferior designation compared to F-16, F-18 & also the JF-17. Hence the designition of FC-20. We cant opt for only F-20 cause that one already exist. F-20 was Northrop Grumman (If I am not misstaken) project which was defeated by F-16 (at that time project of General Dynamics). Hence inspired by "FC-1" PAF calls it "FC-20." Since the makers of both aircrafts are same there aint gona be much issue on it.

 

[aaaditya]

I never discussed it with my teachers or the PAF officials or the defence officials who visit my university but I am sure that FC-20 is J-10. Usualy PAF only turns "J (Jiang)" to "F (Fighter)" - same meaning. But here "F-10" for PAF seems like an inferior designation compared to F-16, F-18 & also the JF-17. Hence the designition of FC-20. We cant opt for only F-20 cause that one already exist. F-20 was Northrop Grumman (If I am not misstaken) project which was defeated by F-16 (at that time project of General Dynamics). Hence inspired by "FC-1" PAF calls it "FC-20." Since the makers of both aircrafts are same there aint gona be much issue on it.

can someone confirm if the f20 tigershark had some design influence on the fc-1,ibelieve china were once interested in this project ,though i cant confirm it.

 

[birdofprey]

F-10 = J-10
FC-20 = Super J-10


F-20 was a competitor for F-16s back in 80s for the USAF.

 

[SABRE]

can someone confirm if the f20 tigershark had some design influence on the fc-1,ibelieve china were once interested in this project ,though i cant confirm it.

There is a possibility. F-20 Tigershark was a Northrop Grumman project which lost to F-16 of General Dynamics in 1968-9/1970. Later Sino-US relations started to improve and both countries went into defence cooperations. It was than that Northrop signed a deal with China to upgrade its J/F-7 fleet & build newer advance versions. Since J/F-7 was PLAAF's front line fighter back than, PLAAF was looking for an upgrade that could match the 2.5-3rd gen fighters (of that time). So there is a possibility that Northrop did bring in the designs of F-20 in consideration during the upgrade. This project was known as SABRE-II (but I have no confirmation on this). Later in 1980s US-Sino relations worsen after the Tinaman Square issue & Northrop dropped out of the project. CAC, the maker of J-7/F-7 & also of FC-1/JF-17 (& J-10) continued the project under the designation of "Super-7" which later evolved into "FC-1/JF-17" as Pakistan joined the program under 50% partnership. So with the involvment of Northrop Grumman there is a possibility of F-20 being in consideration in the project. In 1991, PAC had also started studying the 2 broken down F-16s. It is because of this the FC-1/JF-17 also shows some inspirations from F-16.

All in all it seems like J-7/F-7, F-16 & F-20 combinition.

 

[isthvan]

F-10 = J-10
FC-20 = Super J-10


F-20 was a competitor for F-16s back in 80s for the USAF.

Sorry but do you have more info about that since Chinese still didn’t develop Super j-10? AFAIK FC-20 is J-10...

As for F-20 he was never in competition for USAF, F-16 competitor was YF-17 which later become F-18… F-20 was F-5 successor developed to provide cheep relatively modern fighter for allied countries. It failed when US decided to lift ban on F-16 exports…

 

[SABRE]

As for F-20 he was never in competition for USAF, F-16 competitor was YF-17 which later become F-18… F-20 was F-5 successor developed to provide cheep relatively modern fighter for allied countries. It failed when US decided to lift ban on F-16 exports…

AFAIK, it was. F-20 dropped out of the list (just as YF-17) but the US govt did allow Northrop to market it to other countries but it failed to capture any market. Probably because F-16 was also made available. Even if it was never in the line of competition for USAF, it did fail to beat F-16 in international market.

 

[isthvan]

AFAIK, it was. F-20 dropped out of the list (just as YF-17) but the US govt did allow Northrop to market it to other countries but it failed to capture any market. Probably because F-16 was also made available. Even if it was never in the line of competition for USAF, it did fail to beat F-16 in international market.

F-20 didn’t compete in LWF/ACF program vs. YF-16 and YF-17 but...

In February of 1977 Jimmy Carter announced a new arms transfer policy in an attempt to reduce arms proliferation throughout the world. Under this policy, American manufacturers could no longer sell to foreign air forces any combat aircraft that were the equal of those in the US inventory.

After that FX Export Fighter program started whit two competitors: F-16/79 and F-20. Both projects weren’t founded by DOD but by manufacturers…

After Carter relaxed his policy during 1980 and Regan’s election later that year export ban on F-16A/B was lifted and FX Export fighter was terminated. Compared to F-16/79 F-20 was actually better bird…

 

[uaf]

The F-20 Tigershark (initially F-5G) was a privately financed fighter aircraft, designed and built by Northrop in the USA, starting in 1975. It was a further evolution of Northrop's F-5 Freedom Fighter, although ultimately it shared little more than a strong family resemblance to that aircraft. It was originally designated F-5G, which was approved by the USAF in May 1981. The USAF gave approval for F-20 designation use in November 1982 and of the extra name Tigershark in March 1983. The initial request for F-20 was initially turned down in 1982, the USAF proposing F-19 which ended up not being used at all.

The main change was the replacement of the F-5's two General Electric J85 engines with a single General Electric F404 turbofan, increasing its total thrust by 60%. Like the F-5, however, it was designed as a low-cost, high-performance fighter plane that was easy to maintain. It could reach speeds of Mach 2.1 and had a ferry range of 1,715 miles (2760 km). The aircraft was armed with General Electric AN/APG-67 radar that offered significant performance improvement over the original Emerson AN/APQ-159 and AN/APG-69 radars of the original F-5.

The F-20 made its first flight on August 30, 1982, and a total of three prototypes were created. It was intended for sale to foreign countries and militaries, but the market for the plane never developed, as President Ronald Reagan relaxed the restrictions on selling fighters such as the F-16 Fighting Falcon to other countries. Also, the fact that the United States government had not placed an order for the aircraft had a large effect on the decisions of other countries to buy the F-20 or not. The Pakistan Air Force was offered the F-20 and A-10 Thunderbolt II, but insisted on choosing the F-16 because it would give them a technological advantage. Currently Pakistan is involved in the development of a very similar aircraft to the Tigershark,the JF-17. In 1986 China signed a US$550 million agreement with Grumman to modernise its J-7. The project was cancelled in early 1990 and restarted in the form of the JF-17 thunder project. It is alleged that Grumman used the F-20 plan as a final target for the upgrading the F-7.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-20

and of course pix of F-20

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/1986/Air_Force/DF-ST-86-12146.JPEG

http://www.dodmedia.osd.mil/Assets/1986/Air_Force/DF-ST-86-12144.JPEG

Pakistan was offerd for F-20 ?? erm probabaly Pakistan wanted the plan proven in battle feild but F-20 with 2.1 mach and range of 1,715 miles (2760 km) looks like a good option that time ...........

 

[Bluemoon]

What you think guys by accuiring J10 is this good decison, or better to go for the Gripen if PAF got the ERI eye which thing can work good with ERI eye .. ..
J10 or Gripen

 

[BilalK]

In the mid 1960s the PAF wanted to replace its F-86 with F-5 Tiger II aircraft, but the U.S did not release them due to the 1965 war and the crises in East Pakistan. Throughout the 1970s PAF tried procuring F-5s to replace F-86, and kept failing due to one reason or another.

Then in the late 1970s the PAF wanted to replace its F-6s, and approached China's idea of a possible F-7 upgrade called Sabre-II. However when the F-16s were finally released and freeze of U.S/Chinese relations, the Sabre-II was eventually dropped. If there was a time for PAF to get F-20, it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s; anytime after was the era of F-16s. PAF tried to procure F-5 Tiger II aircraft in the late 1960s to supplement its Mirage III fleet and replace the F-86.

 

[pshamim]

In the mid 1960s the PAF wanted to replace its F-86 with F-5 Tiger II aircraft, but the U.S did not release them due to the 1965 war and the crises in East Pakistan. Throughout the 1970s PAF tried procuring F-5s to replace F-86, and kept failing due to one reason or another.

Then in the late 1970s the PAF wanted to replace its F-6s, and approached China's idea of a possible F-7 upgrade called Sabre-II. However when the F-16s were finally released and freeze of U.S/Chinese relations, the Sabre-II was eventually dropped. If there was a time for PAF to get F-20, it was in the late 1970s and early 1980s; anytime after was the era of F-16s. PAF tried to procure F-5 Tiger II aircraft in the late 1960s to supplement its Mirage III fleet and replace the F-86.

You are correct but in between, Pakistan became interested in A-7 Corsairs but were turned down by Carter Administration invoking Pressler Amendment.. Shortly after Reagan took over, F-18L were offered. Pakistan was quite excited by this development and while the initial talks started between Lockheed and PAF, F-16s were injected by General Dynamics by a promise that if Pakistan showed interest, GD would work with the Congress for transfer of F-16s to Pakistan. We know the rest of the story.