Arms race: Greece & Turkey

[contedicavour]

Here is your info

Thanks ! Apache prices are coming down but the birds still remain more expensive that Mangusta International. I don't know about Rooivalk costs though.
Is there an official deadline for selection of winning bidder ?

cheers

 

[orko_8]

Thanks ! Apache prices are coming down but the birds still remain more expensive that Mangusta International. I don't know about Rooivalk costs though.
Is there an official deadline for selection of winning bidder ?

cheers

The winner will be announced on October 14th, if I'm not mistaken.

 

[beleg]

Thanks ! Apache prices are coming down but the birds still remain more expensive that Mangusta International. I don't know about Rooivalk costs though.
Is there an official deadline for selection of winning bidder ?

cheers

Well Denel had proposed 1bn€ while Agusta 1,4bn€ for 50 aircraft if i remember correctly. Thats slightly cheaper than Apache but then again Apache is much more capable than a Mangusta. Actually imo the offer from Boeing is a lifesaver for SSM, thanks to this they can put a bigger pressure on Denel and Agusta to bring prices even more down, or move all production lines to Turkey..

 

[beleg]

Here is an interesting article from The New Anatolian about ATAK Helicopter Tender. Thanks to orko_8 for pointing out to the article in another forum.

Apache also on the table
Evren Deger

[email protected]
22 September 2006

The last phase of the assault helicopter tender, a major defense industry project for the country, has started. Two choices were placed on the shortlist for the final stage of the tender. One is South African company Denel's Rooivalk, and the other is Italian Agusta's Model A129.

Defense Industry Undersecretary Murat Bayar, in an interview last week, said the final decision on the tender would become clear at the Defense Industry Executive Committee meeting scheduled for next month.

Under the program, the committee will meet on Oct. 18. The committee, consisting of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit and Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, will come to a final decision after the presentations.

The shortlist decision for the ATAK helicopter tender, which was initiated to meet Land Forces' need for an attack and tactical reconnaissance helicopter -- with 30 decided and 20 additional -- and is expected to cost $2 billion, was reached in the committee's July meeting.

However there have been some claims coming out of defense industry circles regarding the meeting held in July.

According to backroom talk, then Chief of General Staff Gen. Hilmi Ozkok complained to Defense Ministry bureaucrats, saying, "I hope you don't oblige us to the Italians."

Also according to these sources, Gen. Ozkok at the same meeting said the French company that was not included on the shortlist declared that the South African company was using their engines and threatened not to allow their engines to be used if the South African company won the tender.

We raised these claims with Defense Industry Undersecretary Bayar. He said, "No, there wasn't any talk like that regarding the Italians. However there were some claims about the Eurocopter, as the media also reported. South Africa was manufacturing general purpose helicopters, a version of the Puma, under license from Eurocopter. Later, taking the engine transmission of this helicopter, the South African company developed the attack helicopter. First of all, nearly all companies get their engines from somewhere. No one makes their own engine. The French engine comes from Turbo Meka. This is another company. The Italians' engine also comes from another company. So the helicopter manufacturers don't make engines. And dynamic systems are produced under the Eurocopter license. That license is legally valid. South Africa's Denel submitted its offer and letter of guarantee. Those companies are all assemblers. We consider the incident a competition tactic. We have the offer of a trustworthy company. In October the tender will be finalized by the decision of the committee."

Bayar expressed optimism about the short list and said that the final decision will be reached in next month's meeting, but also added:

"There is an ongoing process. We will have a result out of this. But if we can't come to a conclusion we will consider Apache and the other alternatives. Apache has an alternative offer. We have also invited them to this tender. However they didn't enter the tender. They were eliminated because their price was even higher than the one they submitted in the previous tender."

Bayar, on one hand, is saying he is satisfied with the shortlist but on the other is sending signals to other companies. He says the Apache offer can be taken into consideration. However he severely criticizes them with these words:

"Apache had a performance failure in Iraq. International defense magazines claim this. Apache's most important feature is its longbow radar system. Its key features are the millimeter wave seeker, ability to engage multiple targets, ability to fire anti-tank missiles at multiple targets, and ability to locate enemy targets even from behind cover. It's an ATAK helicopter weighting 11 tons. Its Longbow radar was dismantled in Iraq in the field because it couldn't use it in that environment. Secondly it was too heavy and slow for that environment. There were men hiding all around and they were sending an 11-ton helicopter at them."

Through these remarks Bayar is pursuing a competition tactic. Time moves on. Next month will determine the result! ...

 

[beleg]

The expected has happened. Turkey has requested to buy 30 F-16 Block50+ aircraft and equipment thru FMS,

The request (http://www.dsca.mil/PressReleases/36-b/2006/Turkey_06-71.pdf)

includes;

30 F-16 block 50 aircraft (not mentioning C/D models)
42 F110-129 GE engines
60 Lau129 Launchers
36 Link 16 MIDS-LVT
35 APX113 AIFF
35 APG68(v9) Radars
36 JHMCS
36 ALQ211/ALQ117 EW Suites
3 Link16 ground stations

If all options are realised it could cost 2,9billion$.

Since the CCIP will start shortly and the amount of attrition has passed 1,5 squadrons worth of aircraft it was expected that Turkey would order more F-16s. This imo reduced the chances of EF-2000 selection for the FCA. Some people suggest there is still a small chance for being selected as an air superiority fighter in very small numbers, but imo if it happens its just because it will be used as a political tool.

 

[341-Phalanx]

Beleg,

You say Turkey will buy Blk50+, so they have CFT?

 

[orko_8]

Probably not, since Turkish Air Force does not have a tactical requirement for CFT.

 

[European]

Wooow,
how much does it cost a F-16 block 50 to turkish?
100 milion $ per unit????

It seems very expensive

 

[orko_8]

Since this is a DSCA notification, the price seems rather high. In DSCA notifications, all prices are calculated with a bery large safety margin, actual prices are usually much lower. For the real cost we must wait for the contract between USAF and LM.

 

[fantasma]

The sub U-214 Papanikolis was to be accepted by 30th of September 2005 then 30th September 2006 but still has severe problems and thus is not going to be accepted and maybe the whole project of the rest constructions and upgrades will be surely affected.
1.Lack of stability while sailing in rough sea conditions ranging from 35-58 degrees
2.The AIP system is out of function after a few hours of sailing
3.The sub is not that "quite" as supposed to be so easier to be detected
4.Problems with the battle system "ISUS"
5.When the sub is sailing more than 3 knots the periscope is trembling so there are troubles in order to lock on targets.
6.Sea water is leaking in the hydraulic systems.

 

[orko_8]

Dear Fantasma,

Very interesting and a little bit surprising. May I ask the source for these?

 

[fantasma]

Dear Fantasma,

Very interesting and a little bit surprising. May I ask the source for these?

Dear Orko 8 it was written yesterday almost to all greek newspapers..

 

[beleg]

I can understand the problems with AIP since its relatively new tech. But others are not a little but very surprising.

The other factors looks like a construction faliure rather than design failure. Can this be true?

At the end of the day its always troublesome to be the first customer of a new machine..

 

[fantasma]

Maybe by the midst of next year both countries will have operational in their inventories AWACS..I have the sense that Wedgetail is a better system but much more expensive than the Erieye..except the fact that the Erieye covers an area of 300 degrees (30 degrees blind on front and rear) what else do you think or believe that supports the superiority of Wedgetail as an AWACS system?

 

[fantasma]

I can understand the problems with AIP since its relatively new tech. But others are not a little but very surprising.

The other factors looks like a construction faliure rather than design failure. Can this be true?

At the end of the day its always troublesome to be the first customer of a new machine..

As for the stability problems it is said by technisians that the problem is irreversible though the hull of the new 214 was based on the hull of the previous type which was constructed in a way to fill in new systems and that the weight has not been situated in an appropriate manner..

 

[beleg]

Maybe by the midst of next year both countries will have operational in their inventories AWACS..I have the sense that Wedgetail is a better system but much more expensive than the Erieye..except the fact that the Erieye covers an area of 300 degrees (30 degrees blind on front and rear) what else do you think or believe that supports the superiority of Wedgetail as an AWACS system?

In my opinnion the most important difference is the size difference between both platforms. Barış Kartalı (Peace Eagle) can carry a larger number of crew thus can stay airborne for much much longer which is one of the most important requirements of any AEW&C aircraft.

Also larger platform can easily generate the energy required for the EW and ECM which will be required during hostility. Dont know the case about the Erieye platform.

Technically i think radars use different wavelengths, so must have pros and cons against each other. Both have similar ranges and abilities tho.

Tactically i think its Turkey that will benefit the more from an AEW&C aircraft especially in the Aegean theathres where the geographical conditions make surveliance of air and sea targets difficult.

I still cant believe a design failure of that multitude can exist in a German submarine. We will probably hear such news from S.Korea too if thats the case. But i wont believe it until i see it

 

[contedicavour]

The sub U-214 Papanikolis was to be accepted by 30th of September 2005 then 30th September 2006 but still has severe problems and thus is not going to be accepted and maybe the whole project of the rest constructions and upgrades will be surely affected.
1.Lack of stability while sailing in rough sea conditions ranging from 35-58 degrees
2.The AIP system is out of function after a few hours of sailing
3.The sub is not that "quite" as supposed to be so easier to be detected
4.Problems with the battle system "ISUS"
5.When the sub is sailing more than 3 knots the periscope is trembling so there are troubles in order to lock on targets.
6.Sea water is leaking in the hydraulic systems.

In Italy we also had some limited problems causing 6-12 month delay in full operational service of our first 2 U212A, though now all are solved and the subs are active.
The list you mention however seems to highlight bigger problems... which is strange, after all commonality between U212A and U214 is high and most systems are already tested aboard German and Italian subs. Strange...

cheers

 

[fantasma]

Crazy greek pilot flying just above the sea...check the video on the website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PF8A11AWTY

 

[contedicavour]

Crazy greek pilot flying just above the sea...check the video on the website http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PF8A11AWTY

Wow the guy was 10 meters above the sea !! Really nuts...
The frigate from which the film is made is a Greek Elli class ?
The risk of an accident by flying so bloody close to one of his country's own FFGs is huge :shudder though it reminds me of Top Gun

cheers

 

[fantasma]

Latest developement on the Turkish Attack helicopter project from http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=56867:
It seems that the solution will be the Apache at last...

Attack helicopter program facing further delays
Tuesday, October 17, 2006
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Ankara – TDN Defense Desk


Turkey's multibillion-dollar program to procure scores of attack helicopters for the country's Land Forces is drifting into new unknowns as the military command has privately expressed its discontent over two contenders short-listed earlier by the government.

Although the procurement office, the Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM), had been hoping to conclude the over-10-year-old program at a key meeting today, it will likely postpone a decision due to objections from the end-user -- the military.

The country's top defense procurement panel, the Defense Industry Executive Committee, is scheduled to meet today, but a decision on the attack helicopter program is unlikely to emerge. The committee is chaired by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Its members are Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul, Chief of General Staff Gen. Yasar Buyukanit and the SSM's chief, Murad Bayar.

SSM officials were hoping to select one of the two short-listed manufacturers in September or October, but the military has in private meetings made it clear that it was not content with either solution.

“The attack helicopter program has been dropped from the meeting's agenda due to a major dispute between the SSM and the military,” a procurement official familiar with the program said. That effectively increases the chances for Boeing Co., which has an outstanding proposal to supply the Turkish Army with its AH-64D Apache Longbow gunship. That proposal is outside the official competition for the purchase of an initial batch of 30 platforms, a contract worth around $1.5 billion.

Procurement sources said Turkey could look for alternative solutions “outside the scope of the existing competition.” Bayar has recently said that Turkey also could consider a U.S. Foreign Military Sales (FMS) solution for the program. That means scrapping the short list of two bidders and going for an off-the-shelf purchase.

“Since Boeing has been unable to fully comply with the commercial request for proposal, which requires 100 percent compliance, Boeing has informed both the Turkish procurement agency and senior Turkish military staff that the Apache cannot compete in the commercial competition but remains available to Turkey under a Foreign Military Sales case,” Boeing spokesman Hal Klopper said.

FMS loans are designed to help allies buy U.S. weapons. One Turkish requirement in the ongoing helicopter gunship tender that Boeing had said it would not be able to meet was a condition for local design and manufacture of the mission computer, a critical device integrating the platform's electronic and avionic systems.

In late June, the committee narrowed the competitors to Italian-British AgustaWestland, maker of the A129 Mangusta International, and South Africa's Denel Aviation, maker of the Rooivalk CSH-2, in a contest for the purchase and co-production of attack helicopters that eventually will rise to between 50 and 90.

The committee's decision pushed out two other contenders: Russia's Kamov, maker of the Ka-52 Black Shark, and Franco-German EADS subsidiary Eurocopter, maker of the Tiger.

The SSM says Turkey's national interests require a Turkish-designed mission computer, but under U.S. export laws and regulations, no such foreign device is allowed to be integrated on a U.S.-made weapon platform.

Defense analysts said a hybrid solution also may be chosen: Buy 10 to 20 helicopters off the shelf from Boeing to meet the army's long-delayed requirement in the shorter term and, in parallel, co-produce 30 to 50 gunships from one of the short-listed bidders.

“That solution can please everyone -- the procurement office, which wants local capabilities and national work, and the military, which wants to see the helicopters in its inventory at once,” said one Ankara-based analyst. “But the key criterion will be the availability of funds for that optimum solution, and it is not certain at this point.”