India's MBT: Arjun and its standing among Tanks

[globaltracker]

Well from the article it says 125 or so more tanks will be given to the army along with jets to air force, but it doesn't specify what tank ^^ either russian or Arjun...so let's not start arguing yet

There couldn't be another tank as army already has ordered for 124 Arjun tanks so there is no question that it could be T90s. However india is getting more than 300 t90s tanks so 124 figure is only appropriate for Arjun tank. If you are looking for a link to prove this point of mine i think if you go back in this thread you can find a link.

cheers

 

[kams]

New Delhi, Delhi, India, 2006-10-13 01:30:13 (IndiaPRwire.com)
An Indian minister Thursday took on critics of India's defence production industry, saying the development of a home-grown main battle tank (MBT), a state-of-the-art helicopter and a weapon locating radar (WLR) were well on target.

Five Arjun MBT's have been delivered to the Indian Army while another 23 are ready for delivery, 64 Dhruv advanced light helicopters (ALHs) have been delivered, and the WLR would begin evaluation trials in December, Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh told a select media gathering here.

This apart, production of the 13.5 mm and 20 mm anti-material rifle had resumed after a hiatus over corruption charges forced the cancellation of a deal for its purchase from South Africa's Denel, the minister added.

And, in a bid to increase the private sector participation in defence production, 29 letters of intent/licences had been issued to 19 companies to collaborate in manufacturing a range of equipment ranging from bullet-proof vests to light armoured vehicles and unmanned aerial vehicles, Singh stated.

Speaking about the Arjun, he said a total of 124 were slated for delivery to the army over the next few years.

'There were a few problems relating to the tracks and the laser range finder and these have been satisfactorily sorted out,' the minister stated.

On the Dhruv, he said it had resumed flying after a major defect with its tail rotor had been rectified.

'The ALH has been successfully utilised under extreme operating conditions at Leh, Jodhpur, Bagdogra, Goa, Kochi, Nashik and Sarsawa by military customers in Mumbai by ONGC (Oil and Natural Gas Corporation) for offshore operations,' Singh said.

The ALH has also been sold to Israel and Nepal while a deal with Chile, which had been put on hold after it developed a defect, was set to be revived.

As for the WLR, 'this is in an advanced stage of internal evaluation in the field and is likely to be offered to the Indian Army for evaluation by the end of December,' the minister said.

The radar can track 105mm, 130mm and 155mm guns firing at low and high angles up to a distance of 15 km and also predict their launch points.

'The ability to locate enemy weapons from the time the first shot is fired and to enable a retaliatory strike before the weapon is redeployed is a key feature of the radar,' Singh pointed out.

'In its secondary role, the radar can track and observe the fall of shots from own weapons to provide fire control guidance,' he added.

Speaking about the anti-material rifle, the minister said Indian scientists had managed to reverse engineer the manufacturing process, as Denel did not provide the complete technology before its contract was revoked.

'We are producing this at the Ordinance Factory, Trichy. It has been approved by the (paramilitary) Border Security Force, which is to take delivery of 100 rifles. Sooner or later, it will be inducted in the army,' Singh said.

Production of indigenous defence equipment on target: minister

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys any idea what imaging infra-red radar and night vision sights have been chosen for the arjun,id it the german ,french catherine or the israeli system being produced by bharat electronics limited?

it seems the french catherine gave a lot of problems when used on the t-90's.

 

[pshamim]

hey guys any idea what imaging infra-red radar and night vision sights have been chosen for the arjun,id it the german ,french catherine or the israeli system being produced by bharat electronics limited?

it seems the french catherine gave a lot of problems when used on the t-90's.

Don't know what has been going on with Arjun. Government of India claimimg that they will go with full production of this MBT, rwhile reports are circulating that Arjun failed to come up to standard and this project is now over. Army has given up on the tank per the news below. It is a big set back just after the news came out that "Akash" missile project was scrapped. If true, we need to close the chapter on Arjun.

Arjun Finally Cancelled, Really Cancelled

October 7, 2006: India has decided to relegate its Indian designed and built tank, the Arjun, to training duties, and will not put these tanks into mass production. Thus ends a three decade effort to create an Indian designed and built tank. The 35 Arjuns already built are too large (heavy and wide) for existing tank transporters. The Arjun is also considered too unreliable for combat. But for training purposes, they are adequate, so it's not a complete waste.

The government was reluctant to give up on the Arjun, as so many politicians had praised the project as a military and nationalistic success. But every time a prototype was put to the test, the results were disappointing. As has so often happened with other weapons projects, the Arjun is having problems with its electronics. In the last round of tests, it was the fire control system. But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters. The Defense Ministry could not bring itself to admit defeat, so all attempts to just cancel Arjun failed. Until now.

Six years ago, the situation became critical, because the army needed a new generation of tanks and the Arjun wasn't ready. So the army ordered 310 T-90 tanks from Russia, mainly to check them out. This was the beginning of the end for Arjun, that was supposed to be the successor to the Russian T-72, currently the first line Indian tank. The Defense Ministry still insisted that Arjun production would go forward. But the government engineers could not make Arjun work. There were also problems with using manufacturing technology, imported from Russia, to build components for Indian made T-72s, to build similar components for Arjun. About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable. But the technology transfer agreements with Russia only allowed India to manufacture these components for T-72s, not another tank design. The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford. The Arjun was going to cost more than imported T-90s.

Four years ago, desperate Ministry of Defense officials made plans to mount the turrets from the Arjuns on T-72 chassis, overcoming many of the construction problems. The Arjun chassis would then be used for a new Bhim self-propelled 155mm howitzers, with the South African Denel T-6 turret. The T-72 with the Arjun turret would be called Tank EX. The Denel turret proved to be too expensive, and too many components in the Arjun turret were still having problems, so this scheme was abandoned as well. At that point, the army began to refurbish some of its 1,700 T-72s, equipping 200 of them with additional armor (ERA), a new engine and upgraded electronics. The army began to look on the T-90 as its next generation tank, but it took four years for the Defense Ministry, and politicians, to admit that Arjun would not work.

Many of the problems with Arjun had to do with nothing more than government ineptitude. The Ministry of Defense was more interested in putting out press releases, about how India was becoming self-sufficient in tanks, than in attending to the technical details needed to make this happen. The Ministry of Defense crowd has done this sort of thing many times. Moreover, if it isn't incompetence screwing things up, then it's corruption. Cleaning up the Ministry of Defense, and all the politicians that get involved with it, is, so far, a problem without a solution.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htarm/articles/20061007.aspx

 

[Whiskyjack]

News report from 5 hrs ago.

Arjun, India's main battle tank, is the Army's pride and joy. It is one of the finest battle tanks in the world, an indigenously developed masterpiece.

At least that's what is said every Republic day parade. But among themselves, officers in the armoured corps have nicknamed it the Rajpath Tank.

That's because after the decades spent on developing it, the parade on Rajpath is the only time the tank is ever used.

Officially the tank entered service in 2001 but so far the army hasn't figured out what to do with it.

"Arjun is a tank. We see where we can use it to get optimum use for it," said Gen JJ Singh, Army chief.

The General's lack of confidence is well founded. At 58 tonnes, the Arjun is about 15 tonnes heavier than what the Army had accounted for.

Too bulky

As a result, most of the Army's prefab bridges and tank transporters can't fit the Arjun in.

Its German engine overheats in the deserts and its indigenously developed armour has not been tested.

After waiting several years for Arjun, the army picked T-90 as its main battle tank. And over the next decade, a thousand T-90s will replace the T-72s.

Nevertheless, the Army will still have to buy 124 Arjuns just because the DRDO has made them.

"We will use it in the plains area. Let's see what we can do with the 124 tanks. We will carry out trails," said Gen JJ Singh.

The Arjun project, like the Trishul and Nag missiles or the light combat aircraft, has cost the DRDO years of effort, thousands of crores of public money and very little utility for the people who use it.

Link

 

[kams]

pshamim;76104]Don't know what has been going on with Arjun. Government of India claimimg that they will go with full production of this MBT, rwhile reports are circulating that Arjun failed to come up to standard and this project is now over.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/ht...to arrive, does belong to current generation.

 

[kams]

News report from 5 hrs ago.

Whiskyjack,

I am no fan of DRDO, but I would like to inform you guys that the Chief Defence Editor of NDTV is Colonel Ajai Shukla (Retd) Hodson Horse. He is not a great fan of Arjun or DRDO. While many of his comments deserve merit, he does go overboard sometimes. But he does have good contacts within Army and is privy to many behind the scene stuff .

 

[Whiskyjack]

Whiskyjack,

I am no fan of DRDO, but I would like to inform you guys that the Chief Defence Editor of NDTV is Colonel Ajai Shukla (Retd) Hodson Horse. He is not a great fan of Arjun or DRDO. While many of his comments deserve merit, he does go overboard sometimes. But he does have good contacts within Army and is privy to many behind the scene stuff .

I know it may be a matter of context, but I was interested in the quotes that seem to suggest that the army is only buying the 123 Arjun's because they had to, and were now trying to find a place/mission for them.

Plus the report is only a few hours old.

The emphasis seems to be:

'we are only getting them because we have to'

But as I say it is all a matter of context.

 

[kams]

I know it may be a matter of context, but I was interested in the quotes that seem to suggest that the army is only buying the 123 Arjun's because they had to, and were now trying to find a place/mission for them.

Plus the report is only a few hours old.

The emphasis seems to be:

'we are only getting them because we have to'

But as I say it is all a matter of context.

We had a godd discussion with Col.Ajai Shukla couple of year back regarding Arjun.

IA wanted something similar to T-72's (when Arjun was conceived) and then T-90's, but with some western bells and whistles. DRDO offered a great gun, Armour, Mobility, Electronic gizmos and Army was thrilled by the individual components , but horrified by the complete package .

It's not only weight or dimensions of Arjun that bothers IA. These are not very difficult to overcome. The designers of Arjun did not take in to account the local conditions, IA's Armour tactics etc. The result was a good tank but totally unsuited for IA's current mechanized warfare requirement. Remember Tan Ex? where DRDO mated Arjun to T-72 chasis?

 

[dabrownguy]

The last I heard is that IA was changing its doctrine. Perhaps Arjun does have a use.

 

[pshamim]

Pshamim, that's a Strategypage 'News'. Please see the later date news I posted above Aadityas post. Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh stated that 23 Arjuns are ready for dekivery.

Kams,
Do you think this report is incorrect? Also, 5+23 does not seem to be a large number for a weapon system like Arjun. Report, if true, is not a great news for DRDO. For India's sake I hope it is not true.

 

[kams]

Kams,
Do you think this report is incorrect? Also, 5+23 does not seem to be a large number for a weapon system like Arjun. Report, if true, is not a great news for DRDO. For India's sake I hope it is not true.

pshamim,
That report is written by someone who does not know a thing about Arjun or Armour warfare or T-72s. To quote,

About two thirds of the components in the Arjun and T-72 were interchangeable.

nfloorl: Arjun and t-72's with interchangeable parts? like what?

The lawyers screwed up on this one, and Indian manufacturers were not able to design and build replacement parts that India could afford

lol, so Arjun is to blame?

But Arjun has also had problems with its engine, and that fact that its size and weight prevents it from being used with current tank transporters.

Engine problem resolved long back. New Tank tranporters designed and commisioned by BEML (I posted a pic of them about 3 months back).

Pshamim its not technical glitches that may sideline Arjun, but tactics, it takes a long time for Infantry and Arty to learn to fight alongside Tanks and when there is a leap in capability from current to new one (From t-72's/T90's to Arjun), it takes extensive retraining for the Army to relearn the whole thing. IA feels the advantages of Arjun are NOT required in the conflict scenario it faces. Why do you think IA bought T-90 and not a Leo, Leclerc? Budget was not the issue. Thanks to Kargil, Indian Armed Forces are getting all they want.

Unless some one in IA decides to revisit whole armoured warfare concept of IA, we may not see large scale induction of Arjun.

 

[kams]

Whiskyjack,
This is what I was refering to wrt Col.Ajai Shukla's sources.

Report exposes DRDO's dismal record

Tuesday, October 17, 2006 (New Delhi):

Over the last few days, the names of two missiles have dominated the headlines - the Israeli Barak and the Indian Trishul.

The controversy on the Barak came up because of the alleged role of middlemen. In the process, it brought up a debate on why the missile was needed in the first place.

The Navy, for its part says the Barak is a brilliant missile and was needed because the indigenous Trishul was no where near completion.

The government has now clarified that the much criticised Trishul project has not, in fact, been shelved.

But there are many who continue to doubt the ability of the Defence Research and Development Organisation in developing state of the art weapon systems.

MoD's report

It's a confidential report from deep within the Ministry of Defence. It's the latest review of the army's projects with the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO).

After a closer look, it becomes clear why the MoD classified the document as confidential.

To produce the report, the Army's Vice Chief Lt Gen Pattabhiraman sat at the South Block with officers of the DRDO and the army.

He examined forty projects that the DRDO has taken up to develop rocket launchers, missiles and tanks, which the army desperately needs.

That analysis uncovers the DRDO's dismal record of failure and delay. And the question is: with 30,000 employees and an annual budget of Rs 5000 crore, is this all that the DRDO can do?

During the Kargil conflict, BM-21 GRAD rocket launchers rained on peaks like Tiger Hill and allowed Indian soldiers to capture the heights.

With supplies running low after the war, the army asked the MoD to buy 85,000 rockets.

But the DRDO can block any such proposals by saying, don't buy, we'll find a way to make them.

So all that was bought were 13,000 rockets from Russia. The DRDO promised to develop the rest.

The generals protested that the range of DRDO rockets is only 30 kilometers - ten km short of the minimum.

So while the army remains short of more than 60,000 rockets, DRDO continues to experiment.

Delay and failure

The DRDO Review examined 39 projects. Just four of them are coming along well. In at least sixteen cases the DRDO is far behind schedule.

Eighteen of the projects - almost half - are categorized as technology demonstrators.

It means the army hasn't asked for them. The DRDO is trying to create a product.

The army is already doing an identical project separately where the infantry soldier's kit equips him to fight by day or night, close in or at a distance.

The DRDO wanted to duplicate the effort with the army paying 10 per cent of its expenses.

"The DRDO should use their expertise to find solutions for problems which the Indian Army is presently facing," said Lt Gen S Pattabhiraman, Vice Chief of Army Staff.

But the DRDO's vision is far more ambitious. It includes cutting edge technology, like the artillery shells or aircraft bombs, fired from 40 kilometer away that find their way to a cross hair placed on a target.

The report says the purchase from abroad had been cleared at the highest levels, but the DRDO insisted it could make them in India.

But the shells could well go the way of the Akash missile, that's been under development for twelve years. The DRDO has found a foolproof way to avoid army testing.

In the review meeting, the DRDO says it can't do testing because the aerial target it was to develop for the Akash is even more delayed than the Akash itself.

Besides, the DRDO has just nine missiles left, so they can't do testing with neither targets nor missiles to fire at them. The likely delay: two and a half years.

The CBI has noted in the George Fernandes case on the purchase of Israeli Barak missiles that the DRDO suggested there's no need to buy them: its own Trishul missile could do the job.

But as the document shows, the DRDO's claims are almost always well beyond its capabilities.

Report exposes DRDO's dismal record

 

[pshamim]

pshamim,
Unless some one in IA decides to revisit whole armoured warfare concept of IA, we may not see large scale induction of Arjun.

Not a very palusible explanation. Do you mean to say that Arjun was an idea without a concept. In fact, it looks more & more that the report is correct.

One other thing that I want to clearly state that I do not doubt about the ingenuity and the technical skills of Indian people. India has the 3rd largest number of highly skilled people in the world. Had this project been in the private sector, most of projects e.g. LCA, Trishul, and Arjun would have been successfully completed. Problem is the interference by politicians and Babus.

For success India will need to break up DRDOs into smaller units and sold to Private sector. Competition among them will ensure that money is not wasted and projects succeed.

 

[kams]

]Not a very palusible explanation. Do you mean to say that Arjun was an idea without a concept. In fact, it looks more & more that the report is correct.

The report is wrong in saying its technical glitches only thats sidelining Arjun. There was a total mismatch between IA's requirement and what DRDO delivered. A great gun, Armour and Engine need not result in a GREAT TANK. You will not find a single statement from any Army (ex or serving) saying DRDO screwed up by not catering IA's operational tactics. These things come out in pvt. conversations or in some rare occassion public discussion in a forum (as with Colonel. Ajai Shukla who served in Hodson Horses, one of the well known armoured regiments of IA).

One other thing that I want to clearly state that I do not doubt about the ingenuity and the technical skills of Indian people. India has the 3rd largest number of highly skilled people in the world. Had this project been in the private sector, most of projects e.g. LCA, Trishul, and Arjun would have been successfully completed. Problem is the interference by politicians and Babus.

For success India will need to break up DRDOs into smaller units and sold to Private sector. Competition among them will ensure that money is not wasted and projects succeed.

pshamim its not lack of ability, may be lack of focus. I will write more later, its getting late here . Just look at the difference b/w ISRO and DRDO, both govt. controlled organizations.

 

[aaaditya]

I know it may be a matter of context, but I was interested in the quotes that seem to suggest that the army is only buying the 123 Arjun's because they had to, and were now trying to find a place/mission for them.

Plus the report is only a few hours old.

The emphasis seems to be:

'we are only getting them because we have to'

But as I say it is all a matter of context.

do not go by the time period of the report ,but by the credibility of the person behind the report,well minister of state for defence himself has stated that arjun is being inducted ,so thats it.orders were placed for 123 tanks and these 123 tanks will come ,the problem about acquiring more tanks or not arises only after the the first 123 are inducted.

 

[gf0012-aust]

It is a big set back just after the news came out that "Akash" missile project was scrapped.

18 months ago I posted on Proton River and DI that Akash was getting scrapped and that Arjun was in the tertiary stages of survival.

I was howled down by some of the locals as having no idea and causing dissension on the forum.

Strange that both my comments about both platforms has come to pass.

I should point out that the info came to me via the then Indian Military Attache' to Australia. He was scathing about the lack of project management skills in DRDO and the fact that basic project management skills were lacking throughout all levels of both projects.

I was always curious that some kids thought that they knew more about the "real" status of Indian weapons project issues than the resident Indian military attache' who was enquiring about how persistent australian projects were (because an abnormally high number of DSTO officers (the aust DRDO equiv) are Indian. So we knew it wasn't a technical ability issue - it was a process and management issue.

 

[powerslavenegi]

18 months ago I posted on Proton River and DI that Akash was getting scrapped and that Arjun was in the tertiary stages of survival.

I was howled down by some of the locals as having no idea and causing dissension on the forum.

Strange that both my comments about both platforms has come to pass.

With all due respect show me a single link .I guess you have got your facts wrong here.You might be refering to Trishul short range SAM.(Akash project is still under development).Between if you are gonna post based on Indian tabloids well then you will contradict yourself every second day.

Lastly recent uproar and media activity with regards to DRDO and its project is simply in wake of Barak deal scandal.Soon when the issue will loose intrest among masses,Trishul and other alleged shelved project will become live.

 

[powerslavenegi]

Between those who believe what Indian tabloids have to say.catch thisnfloorl:

Ahem....... what i would like to say is that when it comes to defense projects peolpe do make overstaements and also try to be economical with the truth and India and its Beaurocrats aint no exceptions to this.Barak has been inducted and barak-NG is to follow into its steps to arm IN ships .Now whether Trishul and Akash be inducted and see action should not be a cause for concern to anyone.

 

[gf0012-aust]

With all due respect show me a single link .I guess you have got your facts wrong here.You might be refering to Trishul short range SAM.(Akash project is still under development).Between if you are gonna post based on Indian tabloids well then you will contradict yourself every second day.

Lastly recent uproar and media activity with regards to DRDO and its project is simply in wake of Barak deal scandal.Soon when the issue will loose intrest among masses,Trishul and other alleged shelved project will become live.

Read my last. The original input was provided by the Indian Military Attache to Australia. some 3 months later, C4ISR published an article hilight problems within the Indian Military/Indian Goct and DRDO in bringing some projects to fruition.

C4ISR is a highly respected military magazine - much much higher in credibility than Janes (for example).

None of my sources were Indian newspapers. I'm loathe to cite any information from general media as they invariably get it wrong. To use the Australian media as a stellar example of editorial incompetency - they typically refer to an FGG as a battleship, and have referred to Collins as an SSN (Pleasantly surprised at that little gem)

Or are you suggesting that the most senior ranking outposted Indian Officer in the Southern Hemisphere had no idea what he was talking about?