Middle East Defence & Security

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
That information as well as BDA (except final conclusion) are unlikely to be shared with the public.
I also assumed at first that each hole got 2 MOPs, but I find that odd.
If it was 2 per hole, the result would be 3 MOPs detonating at target depth, in very close proximity to one another.
They are sufficiently spaced apart, in my assessment, to negate the option of 6 bombs drilling for one another. The pattern also appears too consistent to be CEP related so multiple shots per hole is logical.
I do not see a point in detonating 3 MOPs in such proximity unless it was to collapse something underneath. But then, wouldn't it make sense to just keep drilling with those same munitions instead?

One theory I heard is that instead of 2-2-2 MOPs for 3 holes, it is 1-4-1.
I do not know why, but it seems more logical to me by process of elimination.
I have been looking at the images, did some reading on the subject, some thinking. It seems to me that the theory of multiple entries per hole is science fiction. Two bombs hitting about the same spot is not a given. CEP of the MOPs is a “few meters” (maybe someone can post the actual numbers, I didn’t search that far down). 12 bombs hitting 6 spots, two per, is extremely unlikely. 4 in one hole is beyond extremely unlikely.

IMG_0981.jpeg

From here: https://x.com/DefMon3/status/1936728586549174569

Both strikes reportedly hit ventilation shafts. You can clearly see the remains of the above ground structures at both strike points. I would think that the spread alone is a good indicator of the science fiction theory I proposed. It’s a hell of an accuracy considering what we are dealing with here, but multiple projectiles entering the “same hole(s)” (multiple times over) is not it. I do not think there is evidence of twelve bombs dropped at Fordow, as suggested by some. One example:

Eveleth said the Maxar imagery of Fordow and Caine's comments indicated that the B-2s dropped an initial load of six MOPs on Fordow, followed by a "double tap" of six more in the exact same spots.

It seems to me that people are reconciling what they see with what has been reported.

I want to note that I am completely out off my element here and simply looking for answers. The theory of multiple entries doesn’t seem reasonable to me. We have seven bombers reported, seven visible holes, but fourteen bombs reportedly dropped.


Bit of a reach but perhaps Trumpy shows that he's pressuring Israel out of the 12 hours he promised
I don’t believe he promised the 12 hours. My understanding is he was talking nonsense and people tried to make sense off it. He then clearly “twitted” the “CEASEFIRE IS NOW IN EFFECT. PLEASE DO NOT VIOLATE IT!” I mean the 12 plus 12 hours thing did not make any sense to begin with. I couldn’t reason it until his “tweet”.


But it would be incorrect to state that Iran demonstrated a capability to hurt Israel.
I think this is a question of time, really. If Iran could (questionable) sustain sending a dozen or two ballistic missiles a day for a couple of months, sometimes more, sometimes less, purely economic damage would be more than significant. Not because of what it hits, if anything at all, but due to the disruption of economic activity.


An alternative analysis of the results of the Israeli and American strikes on the nuclear infrastructure in Iran:


I think some of their conclusions are premature. We will see what is revealed days/weeks from now. I, personally, do not see this “ceasefire” to be very lasting.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Well much of the discussion on the I.D.F,s attacks on Iran have focussed on the nuclear enrichment and possible weapons grade material being produced a consideration should be considered of the number of ballistic missiles fired at Israel its hard to get accurate numbers but appears larger in number than Russian against Ukraine
this article goes into some detail of programs linking missile development to nuclear weapons
this article goes into more detail of Irans missiles
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
I have been looking at the images, did some reading on the subject, some thinking. It seems to me that the theory of multiple entries per hole is science fiction. Two bombs hitting about the same spot is not a given. CEP of the MOPs is a “few meters” (maybe someone can post the actual numbers, I didn’t search that far down). 12 bombs hitting 6 spots, two per, is extremely unlikely. 4 in one hole is beyond extremely unlikely.
Few questions:
  1. Why is it science fiction? Are you aware that sub-meter CEP90 is not only achievable, but quite common today?
  2. Can you substantiate the claim that MOP CEP is "few meters"?
  3. Why do you think someone can post actual numbers of something classified?
  4. We see 6 holes and the Twitter post you quoted says 12 were likely dropped on Fordow and 2 on Natanz given the depth disparity. What happened to the other 6? Can you find their entry holes?

There are many ways to guide a bomb. If one cannot fit a terminal guidance section on its front or body, then it can use a combination of jam-resistant GPS and an IMU. Aircraft like the B-2 would certainly have a highly precise, highly jam resistant GPS and very high quality IMU. That would be necessary to ensure the first bomb reaches the precise location set for it.
Then the GPS and IMU on each bomb will determine the relative position of following impacts relative to the first bomb, because they're using the same reference location (B-2's navigation system).
An expensive and strategic munition like the MOP would also certainly have a high quality navigation system.
Even if we assume a worst case scenario where there is significant GPS jamming and the MOP relies solely on an IMU, it is still very much a stand-in weapon with short flight distance and time, resulting in a very low drift.
Both strikes reportedly hit ventilation shafts. You can clearly see the remains of the above ground structures at both strike points. I would think that the spread alone is a good indicator of the science fiction theory I proposed.
We see 2 patterns in sat images:
  • Line
  • Corner
Both appear to be precise, and not indicative of a random spread.
but multiple projectiles entering the “same hole(s)” (multiple times over) is not it. I do not think there is evidence of twelve bombs dropped at Fordow, as suggested by some.
As suggested by the defense briefing.
Image from tweet you linked:
1750838618544.png

Image from briefing showing 14 B-2 due east, each with capacity for 2 MOPs.
Iran Operation Midnight Hammer.png

That means you are effectively contesting the numbers presented by DoD. Understandable, but that is grasping at straws.

I think this is a question of time, really. If Iran could (questionable) sustain sending a dozen or two ballistic missiles a day for a couple of months, sometimes more, sometimes less, purely economic damage would be more than significant. Not because of what it hits, if anything at all, but due to the disruption of economic activity.
What usually happens when a conflict evolves to a protracted campaign is Israel's Homefront Command relaxes guidelines even without improvements to the security situation, to allow the economy to resume. We've seen that vs Hamas, vs Hezbollah, and many times over the years.
Before the first week's end I was already working from my office.
 
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The IDF does release numbers to the press. It is verifiable via footage coming from Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, especially at night when most launches occurred, and when ballistic missiles are clearly visible in the sky.
Also verifiable from live feed cameras overlooking the entire Israeli skyline, which you could find on Youtube.
Also the ban is on publishing footage of the strike shortly when it occurs. But the media always arrives on scene to report and of course film.

So yes, there is a good reason to believe these numbers. Especially when they are so easily verifiable and not at all hindered by any filming ban.


Also doesn't take a genius to read the actual article and see that there are conflicting assessments from anonymous sources.
Wait until there is something conclusive that's not from "sources said".



Can you provide any basis to the claims:
1. 300m depth.
2. "Certainly not destroyed".
Much appreciated.


Please next time bother reading the material you post.
I am quoting Dr Jeffrey's linked post:
"The 400 kg of HEU was largely stored in underground tunnels near the Isfahan Uranium Conversion Facility. Despite extensive Israeli and US attacks the facility, there does not seem to have been any effort to destroy these tunnels or the material that was in them"

Emphasis WAS.
He notes he did not observe damage. Why? In the next post in that thread:
"No one even knows where the HEU is now!"

So Jeffrey says the strike was a failure. Nice headline.
He explains it by saying the storage facility wasn't struck.
He then explains it wasn't struck because the public doesn't know where the HEU is.
So clickbait. As usual.



Remember that this is not the only assessment, and that the US officially denied it. Leaks are inherently political, hence the information is political, whether in essence or presentation.
Also these sites aren't unknown. Just undisclosed to the public.



Because if they dared rush to a bomb they'd get 12 days of whoop ass.

A smelly man named Hitler approaches you and says he pinky promises not to invade Poland. Would you believe him? If you did, that's a Fatwa.


Right because the Mossad and CIA had to beg the IAEA to reveal that while I was looking at them through Google Earth.
Are you not aware that the IAEA gets the location of Iranian nuclear sites from agencies like Mossad and CIA?
The US withdrew from the JCPOA after Israel, not the IAEA, revealed undisclosed nuclear sites.
For a second there I thought engaging with you was a good idea, thanks for disabusing me of that notion.

Clearly a world where the IDF is to be taken at face value, US intelligence leaks *pessimistic* versions of their assessments to the press, and where Israel only bombs the nuclear sites the IAEA knows about despite having perfect knowledge of everything is not the same world I live in.
 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
For a second there I thought engaging with you was a good idea, thanks for disabusing me of that notion.
I'm always happy to debate. Please do return when you think you can handle an argument/opinion being challenged.

Clearly a world where the IDF is to be taken at face value, US intelligence leaks *pessimistic* versions of their assessments to the press, and where Israel only bombs the nuclear sites the IAEA knows about despite having perfect knowledge of everything is not the same world I live in.
I do not understand your argument here. Mind if I ask a few questions?
  1. Are you saying I recommended taking IDF claims at face value? If so, you could easily quote me on that.
  2. Are you saying the DIA preliminary report is not "pessimistic" despite the report literally referring to a "worst case" scenario and relying on preliminary findings only?
  3. Are you generally okay with making conclusions based on preliminary findings?
  4. What is the basis for the claim that the IDF only struck nuclear sites familiar to the IAEA?



Israel-Iran confrontation is mostly on pause. Let's go over it and events on other fronts:

IRAN
More info on Isfahan strike.
Translation:
1. The attacked site is an isolated UGF that contained most of the enriched material.
2. The American strike blocked both entrances.
3. The intent was to prevent Iranian transfer of material.
4. Since the strike, the area is under constant surveillance.
5. Earlier Israel struck a nearby above-ground uranium conversion (from gas to metal) facility.
6. Official familiar with the strike details: If they'll try to reach the stockpile, we'll see it. It'll give us new targets.

Trump warns of additional strikes if nuclear work resumes. This is likely related to attempts to extract the buried enriched uranium.

David Albright and his institute ISIS have conducted an early analysis of the strikes:

Considering the damage to Iran's three known enrichment facilities, the destruction of Iran's centrifuge manufacturing capabilities, its uranium conversion facility, uranium metal production plant, and other facilities involved in its nuclear weaponization process, reconstituting these capabilities will take significant time, investment, and energy to return to its previous state before the war or build nuclear weapons. Iran has likely lost close to 20,000 centrifuges at Natanz and Fordow, creating a major bottleneck in any reconstitution effort. Moreover, there has been considerable damage to Iran’s ability to build the nuclear weapon itself.

Further, reposted by Albright. There seems to be a consensus about the DIA "worst case scenario" report being low confidence and very narrow in scope. But what's interesting is that Trumpy claimed that Israel assessed the situation from the ground.
If you remember, I mentioned several times before the strike on Fordow and even long before the war, that one of Israel's options for attacking UGFs is via ground teams. Depending on the type of personnel used, the mission and its risks could significantly vary. But attacking from the air and doing only BDA from the ground, appears to be a much lower risk option.
I'm not sure of the method. It could involve pre-installed reconnaissance equipment via a ground team before a strike, and relaying that information later.
Israel's significant ground element in Iran shown publicly on the first day of the war, is testament to this capability, even if the report is difficult to verify.

It's natural for assessments to vary at this early stage. I will personally refrain from making conclusions until a certain grace period. Perhaps a month from now.
What we can assess for now is the production capability of missiles, centrifuges, air defenses, various electronics and other industrial capabilities that could allow Iran to rearm. It will take a long time for Iran to restore its industrial capacity, while Israel continues rearming, as Kamala once said - unburdened by what has been.
Iran's conventional capabilities were no less important than its nuclear ones, and together they form the complete picture of the Iranian threat.



A Jordanian photographer managed to film Iranian missile barrages on Israel country-wide.
Of the 41 volleys launched at Israel, he captured 6. But it's estimated that about half of the missiles were fired in those 6.
Excluding SM-3 which were not observed, 82 missiles were counted, roughly evenly split between THAAD and Arrow.

This does not count lower tier systems like the David's Sling and Iron Dome (which surprisingly was recorded several times engaging MRBMs.

LEBANON

As of today, Hezbollah hasn't conducted even symbolic attacks. The ceasefire agreement holds.
Israel continues to strike Hezbollah targets as per agreement, which significantly harms Hezbollah's ability to reconstitute.
No major developments since the ceasefire.

GAZA

GHF is proving its success more and more, replacing corrupt middlemen and delivering food aid straight to the people, free of charge.
Hamas is increasingly panicking about it, claiming every day about mass civilian casualties in these events. The killings are reportedly conducted by the Hamas's Sahm police unit.
At first, they targeted local collaborators with the GHF program, but recently started killing simple Palestinians to deter from going to the GHF and to buy aid from Hamas and UNRWA instead.


This morning, it was cleared for publication that 7 IDF soldiers were killed in an attack on a Puma CEV, based on a Centurion platform.
It is not yet known whether it was via RPG or a planted charge. Although heavily armored, it is still generations apart from the Namer CEV. It is not known whether the Namer would necessarily survive, but it could increase chances of survival. The deceased belong to the 605th combat engineering battalion, part of the 188th armor brigade.
The IDF has 2 more such battalions in active duty and many more in reserve. Despite introducing to service the first Namer CEV in 2016, the active units have still not fully switched. The 605th was to start receiving theirs in 2026.
This further illustrates how despite massive defense expenses, the IDF is struggling to modernize.
Puma CEV:


Namer CEV:
 
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Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
The IDF does release numbers to the press. It is verifiable via footage coming from Iran, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, especially at night when most launches occurred, and when ballistic missiles are clearly visible in the sky.
Also verifiable from live feed cameras overlooking the entire Israeli skyline, which you could find on Youtube.
Also the ban is on publishing footage of the strike shortly when it occurs. But the media always arrives on scene to report and of course film.

So yes, there is a good reason to believe these numbers. Especially when they are so easily verifiable and not at all hindered by any filming ban.
Always arrives on scene to report? Here's an on-the-ground reporter disagreeing. I suspect that publicly available BDA on strikes landing in Israel is quite incomplete.

 

Big_Zucchini

Well-Known Member
Always arrives on scene to report? Here's an on-the-ground reporter disagreeing. I suspect that publicly available BDA on strikes landing in Israel is quite incomplete.
Not BDA. The point of the ban is to mitigate BDA capability.
Not to hide the fact an impact occurred.
A wide range of publicly available tools allow verifying things like launches, intercepts, and impacts. Even during low visibility (daytime).
 
I have been following this "war" quit closely the last two weeks not wanting to comment as I find the entire situation strange to a point that the word staged comes to mind.

Clearly the US Iranian exchange was either completely or almost completely staged. The Iranians gave the time, the location, probably even the number of missiles before they attacked the US base and with ample of time for US to evacuate anything that was of any value. I mean the only thing left for Iranians was to promise to rebuild any building that gets damaged in an unlikely event that any missile comes through. As for the US strikes, does anybody seriously believe that all it takes to destroy or seriously damage the Iranian nuclear program was six or eight or twelve bombs, particularly as Iran evacuated the sites two days before the bombs fell, again suspiciously at the exact time when the bombers were taking off from the US? And, if that's all that it takes, why didn't the US do it before? Why all the negotiations, the involvement of UN, the political backlash the Obama administration took for the deal when they could get rid of the problem so easily?

Then we come to Israel, which started this bombing campaign with stated goal of destroying Iran's nuclear program and its ballistic missile program, both of which are impossible with the means Israel has at its disposal. Therefore, we can logically assume that the above mentioned goals were a cover for attempted regime change in Iran as stated by Netanyahu when he called up Iranians to overthrow the regime. But this also doesn't make sense as you cannot overthrow the regime without taking out its leader which was strictly forbidden by the Trump administration before the "war" started.

The only other goal Israel might have had was to drag the US and Iran into open war, but this was also unlikely to happen, which we can conclude from both current behavior from both US and Iran, and also the last time they were close to conflict after the assassination of Soleimani when both sides were primarily looking for exit strategies.

Overall, in my opinion, this war's primary theater of operations was information/media space, with both sides flooding the airwaves with significant exaggerations of their successes followed by downplaying of the opponents ones.
 
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