Indonesia: 'green water navy'

[Ananda]

There are rumours that the contractual process for 2 Scorpene EVO that should effective early this year, has been delayed. Rumours seems related to Hanhwa Ocean lobby on continues DSME 1400 2nd Batch. The rumours stating that Hanhwa Ocean willing to build all 2nd batch in PAL facility faster then NG offer timeline for 2 Scorpene EVO with much lower cost.

Also it is related to potential legal penalty that Hanhwa Ocean will take if PAL and MinDef doesn't execute 2nd Batch. MinDef also wants total package to refurbished 1st Batch that being consider less effective operationaly as being design.

Need to find out more, but seems it is also shown Hanhwa Ocean do lobby hard behind doors. Problem is legally they already have effective contract, while NG still in MOU stage.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

View attachment 52230

PAL FB shown photos of ROKN delegation to their facility. Put it this as:

1. The bottom picture shown what's seems part of FMP Frigate blocks on background.
2. Rumours that ROK put competition on the 'rumours' third Frigate class bid (after FMP and PPA), that's currently being told being compete by French FDI and Turkiye Istanbul/Istif class. View attachment 52231
3. Another rumours of 2nd Batch of Cangbogo (Hanwha/DSME 209) still on the table to be revived.

All rumours related to Hanwha Ocean effort to approach PAL for not only reviving their trouble Batch 2 Submarine program, also their offering for faster Frigate program build both in their facility and PAL.

This rumours I heard from SOE people that indicating Hanwha doing silent lobby with Ministry and PAL. Also talk on potential another defense deal to ROK as compensation if Indonesia pull out from KF-21 program. Hanwha not only offer more economical and faster delivery packages then NG, but also better financing packages then Aselsan can provide. They try to shown they can provide better deals then Frenchie and Turkiye can offer.

Again this is just rumours, but seems increasingly shown plausibility. So far this kind of rumours in Indonesian procurement can indicating something behind the door lobby.

Too many rumours.... as always. Hopefully the hesitation does not take too much time.



Kongsberg Maritime has secured a contract to supply advanced propulsion and manoeuvring technology for two new KCR-70 Fast Attack Craft for the Indonesian Navy. These vessels are currently under construction at the Sefine Shipyard in Türkiye.
Displacing 850 tonnes, the KCR-70 is capable of reaching speeds in excess of 40 knots. With a range of 1600 nautical miles and an endurance of seven days, these vessels are well-equipped to perform extended missions in diverse operational environments.

Looking to the specifications i think this new class of patrolboats is ordered to replace the Mandau Class.
Kongsberg to provide systems for Indonesia's KCR-70M program - Naval News

 

[Ananda]

Video official MinDef on Defense Minister visit to PAL inspection for FMP. For me I look behind the main tag line. Behind FMP inspection, he also doing inspection on the DSME 1400 operational readiness and PAL Submarine facility. He also doing side meeting with NG delegation, while previously ROK and DSME team already coming to PAL.

Personally I still base my suspect on those tactical and strategic Submarine classification that Prabowo's shown last year. For that I do suspect both batch 2 DSME and Scorpene still build one way or another to meet that Tactical and Strategic Submarines classification. More importantly, I just don't see they can afford for Submarine program, budgets beyond DSME and NG offerings.

 

[Sandhi Yudha]

Video official MinDef on Defense Minister visit to PAL inspection for FMP. For me I look behind the main tag line. Behind FMP inspection, he also doing inspection on the DSME 1400 operational readiness and PAL Submarine facility. He also doing side meeting with NG delegation, while previously ROK and DSME team already coming to PAL.

Personally I still base my suspect on those tactical and strategic Submarine classification that Prabowo's shown last year. For that I do suspect both batch 2 DSME and Scorpene still build one way or another to meet that Tactical and Strategic Submarines classification. More importantly, I just don't see they can afford for Submarine program, budgets beyond DSME and NG offerings.

It is indeed possible that Indonesia orders a second batch of Type 209/1400 besides the two ordered Scorpènes. Didn't PAL stated some time ago that they can build two submarines at the same time?

 

[Ananda]

Didn't PAL stated some time ago that they can build two submarines at the same time?

In theory their facility is big enough for 2 2000+ ton Submarine construct simultaneously. However that demand big effort on workers capabilities and managerial capacity. That's the big question on PAL abilities.

Right now some local yards in Batam and Lampung has shown better yard managerial results compare to PAL on Naval building. PAL do still have advantage over them, especially related to government project and investment. However if they don't keep up the progress, other local yard can outperform them. That will raise question politicaly whether government should continue give main naval projects with them.



There's enough talks and noices even from Italian and Chinese sources that Indonesia getting serious on procuring Garibaldi and either one or two Type 52D from Chinese inventory. Let's see how's this develop.

There's enough talk that Garibaldi being procure as stop gap for UAV Carrier concept and command carrier, until LHD design from PAL can be finalize with help from selected partner. Whether that partner will be Fincantieri or others, it is also part of negotiations.

 

[Ananda]

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Keris X talk on Naming Ceremony will be conducting soon in Fincantieri for the 2 PPA. Payment process seems already effective. Fincantieri potentially have chances to get more contracts after this. In fact some talk indicates NG are more worries on losing ground with their neigbour in south then Turkiye or China.

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[Ananda]

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The Renaming ceremony with Photos from Fincantieri Al Muggiano cerimonia di cambio nome per le due unità destinate alla Marina indonesiana - Città della Spezia. Fincantieri offer for both providing faster packages, also potential local manufacturing for further batches, and working with local yards for installation of further upgrades.

Both vessels being talk will be deliver this year with Light + instalation as it is. Further upgrades for Full is potential as Fincantieri offer modules on that to be installed on local yards as part of Tech Transfer.

Personally I remember wrote in this forum few years back on the design of this PPA when the first one launched by Fincantieri. I remember I was cynical on the designs, and now as Indonesian it is bite me back and by noices of it could be more to come. Me and my big mouth .

Renaming Ceremony of two PPA Vessels for the Indonesian Navy - Naval News

The renaming ceremony of the two PPA vessels sold to the Indonesian Navy was held today at Fincantieri's shipyard in Muggiano (La Spezia).

www.navalnews.com

Add video on the ceremony. Media call those PPA will be largest combatant on present TNI-AL inventory, as they also slightly bigger then FMP/Arrowhead 140 being manufactured. Infact as combatant, only the single Sverdlov Cruiser that bigger from them. After more then 5 decade, TNI-AL got combatant that are above 130m again. Both using names which before being used on Skory class destroyer, as last destroyer in TNI-AL fleet.

 

[Ananda]

From French Embassy Jakarta account. Photo on Passex betwen TNI-AL Sigma 10514 and Marine Nationale Horizon class. Will NG offer that design against Chinese Type 52D ?

The talk on MoF will agree to release USD 750 mio budget for Interim Frigates/Destroyers begin to resurface again. Now it is being talk for AAW variances, and as this interim means it is something that are available soon. PPA budget calculate as New Build Frigate, as they are practically brand new. Interim means from my understanding (at least on MinDef budget interpretation) as for vessels that already operational. Thus can be refurbish and operate ASAP. In short, 2nd hand vessels.

 

[Primarch144]

View attachment 52265View attachment 52266
From French Embassy Jakarta account. Photo on Passex betwen TNI-AL Sigma 10514 and Marine Nationale Horizon class. Will NG offer that design against Chinese Type 52D ?

The talk on MoF will agree to release USD 750 mio budget for Interim Frigates/Destroyers begin to resurface again. Now it is being talk for AAW variances, and as this interim means it is something that are available soon. PPA budget calculate as New Build Frigate, as they are practically brand new. Interim means from my understanding (at least on MinDef budget interpretation) as for vessels that already operational. Thus can be refurbish and operate ASAP. In short, 2nd hand vessels.

Horizon? Nope
It will be either aquitaine class or ffbnw FDI

 

[Ananda]

FFBNW Arrowhead (FMP) with that kind budget got 2, while if that kind of budget only got 1 FDI then there'll be question not only affordability but also worthwhile. French packages has to be more affordable if they want to have chance against Chinese, Turkiye or even Italian. Especially for surface combatant.

Besides thar budget supposedly for Interim surface combatant. That's where the Chinese have advantage. They can afford to part away with 2 Frigates or even Destroyers that are relatively new. Again in Indonesia politics and lobbying matter.

 

[koxinga]

Horizon? Nope
It will be either aquitaine class or ffbnw FDI

Nah. The rumor is Italy again, FREMM class. Two specific units have been suggested.

 

[Ananda]

Menhan Indonesia-Perancis Bertemu, Bahas Komitmen Pengadaan Kapal Selam Scorpene

Ada kesepakatan ”joint venture” antara Naval Group dan PT PAL untuk membangun dua kapal selam kelas Scorpene. Namun, kontraknya belum efektif hingga kini.

www.kompas.id

Seems the JV contract for Scorpene will be modified. At least according to Kompas base on the result meeting between Indonesia and France defense ministers. Before PAL claim that both Submarine will be build in their facility. Now seems 1st one will be build at NG facility and 2nd one in PAL.

For me it is more sensible as PAL learning curve in Submarine Manufacturing is not mature yet. Also by only build one in PAL also reduce the costs. Moreover it is means both can be build on similar time line, thus increase time table schedules.

It is also sign politically on acceptance the fact that not all can be force to be build by Indonesian yards. The build program with part build overseas and part build locally it is more manageable with the time schedules that MinDef and TNI aim.

The rumor is Italy again, FREMM class. Two specific units have been suggested.

Yes the rumours of Italian winning the contract getting stronger. As why I said previously for France has to provide better packages offer, or Italian will beat them. Italian silent lobby getting more traction then France or even Turkiye more high profile ones. Seems Italian also find ways on getting financing packages, which from my understanding even ironically involve France asside Gulf Banks.

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Seems asside try to get PPA Batch 2 with local yards, they try to deal with ready stock vessels. Italian Navy wants EVO version thus willing to let go their existing stock for that.

Turkiye has problem on that parts, as they hope on getting Gulf Financial Institutions as European ones less willing to back them. While the Gulf seems more willing to backup Euro OEM then Turkiye ones. Something that Sultan Erdo seems bit negligence on effort in securing Financial packages for export. I have put in this thread few years back, that the challenge for exports is always on the need getting strong financial packages backup. Whatever products or industry you dealing on, most customers want to deal with credit lines and not cash transactions.

Add:
This is just my speculation base on recent rumours. Well strong rumours in Indonesia Procurement has potential can be real deal anyway. Base on Prabowo's presentation when he's Defense Minister, the target for Frigate is 12. I suspect before is 6 FMP, 4 PPA and 2 unknown Frigate type.

Seems now Sigma 10514 still consider as Frigate. While FMP and PPA Batch 2 gaining traction. If they really take 2 ex Italian FREEM then the 12 Frigates will be:
2 Sigma 10514,
2 FMP + 2 Batch 2,
2 PPA + 2 Batch 2,
2 FREMM ex Marina Militare.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Nah. The rumor is Italy again, FREMM class. Two specific units have been suggested.

It's very funny to me that a lot of Indonesians are insisting that this is for a separate requirement that the Chinese 052 offer is supposed to fill and not the same one.

Seems now Sigma 10514 still consider as Frigate. While FMP and PPA Batch 2 gaining traction. If they really take 2 ex Italian FREEM then the 12 Frigates will be:
2 Sigma 10514,
2 FMP + 2 Batch 2,
2 PPA + 2 Batch 2,
2 FREMM ex Marina Militare.

Also, the FREMM offer supposedly includes the transfer of 2 U-212NFS submarines as well.

 

[Ananda]

I still goes with thar Tactical and Strategic Submarine classification. Tactical seems more shorter range litoral water while Strategic more to longer range bluish water. So whether Fincantieri, Chinese or Korean offer it should be on that Tactical classification. Considering U212 build for relative shallow water of Baltic and Mediterranean, perhaps it is more suitable for Java Sea and Straits choke points environment of that Tactical Submarine.

Still I'm just doubtful they can afford more than DSME/Hanwha prices offer, as Scorpene packages seems shown sign will be going to be implement. Unless they are scratching F-15EX, as it all back to that program as it is taking too much budget allocations.

Add:
Too many Indonesian enthusiasts acted more as fan boys and not back to realities of money/budget trails. Prabowo's presentation talk 12 Frigates and no seperate Destroyer programs. Thus means large surface combatant is that 12 Frigates target. More than that is just studies and nor yet backed by budget protection/money trails.

 

[Ananda]

France diplomacy and lobbying on show. CDG carrier group berth in Lombok Naval Base. Indonesian Defense Minister now playing guest to his French Counterpart that just a day ago was his guest.

Frenchie Salesman talk in his X and other online media that the Scorpene deal credit financing has been sign. Well he's the Frenchie Sales Agent so I guess he has info on that. Now rumours asside Rafale and securing Scorpene deal, Frenchie also talks on Drones cooperation.

It is has been circulating that Indonesian MinDef really getting serious securing Garibaldi with Italian as interim Drones and Command carrier, until planned LHD can be secure sometimes in future. Turkiye has been approaching to be partner on that Drones carrier concept, perhaps now Frenchie with Airbus approaching that also.

 

[Ananda]

National Archive of Republic Indonesia few days ago upload this rare old video of RI Irian, the sole TNI-AL Cruiser. This is from 1968 and in the 60's the TNI-AL ships still use Old Order RI prefix instead KRI. KRI prefix being use in 70's after New Order government solidifies their grip in power.

Hope the national archive also restored and revive old videos like this ones. The video sound is not good enough, and I believe this days there're ways to revive older videos.

 

[Ananda]

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France embassy in Jakarta put statements in their X on the progress of Indonesian Defense procurement:

1. The execution on the Scorpene contract,
2. Delivery for the first Rafale in coming months.

For#1 will be seen if the contract execution means changes on manufacturing with First Sub in NG and Second one in PAL facility. That's potential decrease the contract amount then previously both build in PAL.

For #2, this implies the first Rafale from Batch 1 of 6, will be deliver in this year. That's mean it's faster then plan of next year, or it is also potentially the deliver will be station first in France for training and familiarization for Indonesian crew.

 

[ChestnutTree]

Prabowo's presentation talk 12 Frigates and no seperate Destroyer programs. Thus means large surface combatant is that 12 Frigates target.

It's doesn't help that a lot of Indonesians are adamant that destroyers are a completely different ship type in capabilities than say, a lot of European ASW/AAW/GP Frigates classes.

The ex-Marina Militare FREMM's more or less fit the same ballpark with what they insist are destroyers.

 

[Ananda]

ex-Marina Militare FREMM's more or less fit the same ballpark with what they insist are destroyers.

For those Indonesian enthusiasts they are have strong believe a Destroyer has to have AAW centric capability. The media talks on Type 52D make them adamant that whatever Destroyer going to be acquired has to have 48-64 VLS as bench marks.

The problem is the Destroyer so far exists on TNI-AL studies and wish list. Not yet on MinDef budget plan. A colleague in Bapenas told me, and Ministry can have studies, and submitted to Bapenas to be decided of it is can fall within National plan. So far from what I got the plan for Navy Surface combatant are Frigates, Corvette and Missile Boats.

The Navy from what I heard still hold plan for at least a couple AAW dedicated Frigates. This plan already exists since the 90's. So possible they can add 2 type 52D if they meet budget for AAW Frigates. But then it is still within that 12 Frigates target. More than that I suspect still belong to studies and not yet on budgetary planning.

Add:
Other thing to consider, can Indonesian Navy has enough missile inventory to fill more 32 VLS ? The plan so far is seems looking for 16-32 VLS Frigates. FMP plan also only have that kind of range VLS. So Destroyer with 48-64 VLS also will have probability operate with more than half of VLS cells empty.

Perhaps that's why MinDef so far not overly ambitious on planning VLS capacity.

 

[x100 XKR]

For those Indonesian enthusiasts they are have strong believe a Destroyer has to have AAW centric capability. The media talks on Type 52D make them adamant that whatever Destroyer going to be acquired has to have 48-64 VLS as bench marks.

The problem is the Destroyer so far exists on TNI-AL studies and wish list. Not yet on MinDef budget plan. A colleague in Bapenas told me, and Ministry can have studies, and submitted to Bapenas to be decided of it is can fall within National plan. So far from what I got the plan for Navy Surface combatant are Frigates, Corvette and Missile Boats.

The Navy from what I heard still hold plan for at least a couple AAW dedicated Frigates. This plan already exists since the 90's. So possible they can add 2 type 52D if they meet budget for AAW Frigates. But then it is still within that 12 Frigates target. More than that I suspect still belong to studies and not yet on budgetary planning.

Add:
Other thing to consider, can Indonesian Navy has enough missile inventory to fill more 32 VLS ? The plan so far is seems looking for 16-32 VLS Frigates. FMP plan also only have that kind of range VLS. So Destroyer with 48-64 VLS also will have probability operate with more than half of VLS cells empty.

Perhaps that's why MinDef so far not overly ambitious on planning VLS capacity.

I don't get the DDG obsession. FMP - which is based on Iver class has space for 32 cell mk 41, and the Iver has 2 additional 16 cell mk 56. The 2 mk 56, can probably be replaced with 2 8-cell mk 41 modules, bringing the total VLS magazine to 48. They can quad pack some w/ ESSMs. Let's say keep the original 32 cell mk 41 with Standard SAM, then the 2 8-cell modules with 64 ESSM. Or use Aster 30 and quad pack Seaceptor. That's DDG level load. We have not even addressed the 4 spots for the quad Harpoon on the Iver, which they can convert to more VLS.

You are spot on about enough missile inventory. The Navy are notorious with their FFBNW mentality. Having big magazine VLS is nice, if they are loaded. If they are empty, it's like having an army of archers with large quivers but no arrows. What's the point?