Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Recession doesn't mean bankruptcy John. There will still be plenty of money for defence, especially if they move the yardstick to 2.3%, which is the big rumour around Ottawa now.
An unrealistic assumption, if there was plenty of money available during recent good times and we couldn’t manage better than 1.4%, how is any government going to manage 2.3% in a recession? Even a defence oriented government will be politically challenged to accomplish 2.3%. Then there is our dysfunctional procurement operation. The military can’t even spend the full amounts it has been given. Much of the new kit we need is in high demand so this is more delay. As for the rumour of 2.3%, too late now as Trump is pushing NATO for 3+ which several members are already doing.

Perhaps a new Canadian government can propose 2.5% in exchange for the status quo. Unfortunately this BS will start up again in 2026 when the review on USMC trade agreement starts.
 

Sender

Active Member
An unrealistic assumption, if there was plenty of money available during recent good times and we couldn’t manage better than 1.4%, how is any government going to manage 2.3% in a recession? Even a defence oriented government will be politically challenged to accomplish 2.3%. Then there is our dysfunctional procurement operation. The military can’t even spend the full amounts it has been given. Much of the new kit we need is in high demand so this is more delay. As for the rumour of 2.3%, too late now as Trump is pushing NATO for 3+ which several members are already doing.

Perhaps a new Canadian government can propose 2.5% in exchange for the status quo. Unfortunately this BS will start up again in 2026 when the review on USMC trade agreement starts.
It depends on where the government puts its priorities, and the very very very strong consensus is the government is quite prepared to cut program spending in other areas to fund increased military funding. Just cutting the civil service head count by 5% would free up $3Bil in salaries alone, and the rumour is they are looking at a 10% head count reduction. Given the civil service has grown by 35% under this current government, a 5% reduction should be achievable without a meaningful impact on service delivery. In addition, departments are being asked to find a further 5% in "efficiencies". Federal government spending is at $450Bil/year, so that represents another $22.5Bil in savings. In other words, if the government is serious, it's completely do-able to increase defence spending.
 
It is not realistic for Canada to shirk from increased defence spending even in a recession given that we have multiple high profile and high cost procurement programs either actively ongoing or planned in the near future for all branches. Our allies throughout NATO and the world have been pressuring us to bring the CAF back up to par and modernize, this is especially important as a negotiating tool with the US in a possible trade war and with how important the Arctic is clearly becoming. Even domestic politics has shifted towards defence spending being something that is actually important and not just pushed under the rug considering how the world is ending up these days.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Well defence promises seem to evaporate once pollies are elected and begin planning programs to get re-elected. The current geopolitical situation required increased spending years ago but junior is clueless and many of his BS programs and grossly expanded civil service limited defence.

We will have to see if the Conservatives are serious or just talk. Certainly more will happen but enough, probably not. Also, huge improvements are needed for our procurement process.
 

shadow99

Member
I came across this video "NAC Ottawa Speakers Evening January 2025" on RCN procurment from another forum.

At 21:34 Capt(N) Drew Graham talks about the Canadian Multi-Mission Corvette.
around 1000 tons
105m or less
strike length VLS

Seems ambitious for its size. One would think something a little larger, maybe at least 115m would be more suitable.
Its worth watching, and why the limit is at 105m.

 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
I came across this video "NAC Ottawa Speakers Evening January 2025" on RCN procurment from another forum.

At 21:34 Capt(N) Drew Graham talks about the Canadian Multi-Mission Corvette.
around 1000 tons
105m or less
strike length VLS

Seems ambitious for its size. One would think something a little larger, maybe at least 115m would be more suitable.
Its worth watching, and why the limit is at 105m.

Vard Marine offering for RCN CMC
Built-in weapon systems:
- 2x 3-Cell ExLS with 24x CAMM Surface to Air Missiles (25km range)
- 1x Bofors 40 mm Main Gun
- 2x 12.7mm or 20mm Remote Weapons Systems
- 2x Decoy Launching System
Modular Mission Deck systems:
- Built-in deck skidding system allows for rapid movement and securing of modules on deck
- Capacity for 4x 40ft or 8x 20ft ISO Containers for general transport or HADR missions
- 2 x 12 m Rigid Hulled Inflatable Boats on Cube™ davit module
- Capacity for containerized ASW modules (ex. CAPTAS-2, Mk 54, decoy launchers, etc.)
- Cube™ launch-and-recovery modules capable of hosting stern survey sensors and ROVs
- Stand-off MCM capability via the Pathmaster System
- Up to 6 Cube™ based Naval Strike Missile (NSM) launchers for hosting a total of 24 missiles for a sustained anti-surface capability
- 3 to 4 Mk 70 Payload Delivery Systems (each system contains four strike length Mk 41 VLS cells)
 
Would be interesting to know the “Ontario” content for this proposal and which shipyard(s). Hike, I assume?
The yard earmarked for production of this program is named "Ontario Shipyards", it was formerly Heddle Shipyards until a name changed in January, 2024. They are currently not engaged in any shipbuilding activities under the National Shipbuilding Strategy and they have facilities throughout the Great Lakes area. In order to qualify for work under the NSS, any shipyard besides Irving, Davie or Seaspan is only permitted to build vessels of 1000t or less. Unless the wording and contracts of the NSS are changed, this is a hard cutoff for the potential size of the CMMC and this proposal.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The yard earmarked for production of this program is named "Ontario Shipyards", it was formerly Heddle Shipyards until a name changed in January, 2024. They are currently not engaged in any shipbuilding activities under the National Shipbuilding Strategy and they have facilities throughout the Great Lakes area. In order to qualify for work under the NSS, any shipyard besides Irving, Davie or Seaspan is only permitted to build vessels of 1000t or less. Unless the wording and contracts of the NSS are changed, this is a hard cutoff for the potential size of the CMMC and this proposal.
If the promised work so far actually continues for the NSS yards, none of these yards have the capacity to add the CMMC and IMHO, Quebec based Davie, shouldn't get any pointy end type ships. Therefore a future government have to amend the NSS membership or have CMMCs arriving at the end of this century (a Liberal wet-dream).:(
 

FormerDirtDart

Well-Known Member
The yard earmarked for production of this program is named "Ontario Shipyards", it was formerly Heddle Shipyards until a name changed in January, 2024. They are currently not engaged in any shipbuilding activities under the National Shipbuilding Strategy and they have facilities throughout the Great Lakes area. In order to qualify for work under the NSS, any shipyard besides Irving, Davie or Seaspan is only permitted to build vessels of 1000t or less. Unless the wording and contracts of the NSS are changed, this is a hard cutoff for the potential size of the CMMC and this proposal.
The addition of Davie's shipyard to the NSS large vessel component shows that a significant adjustments isn't out of the question. Plus, the Kingston-class replacement isn't part of the NSS programmed projects. So the actual acquisition of these ships require a change to the NSS
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The addition of Davie's shipyard to the NSS large vessel component shows that a significant adjustments isn't out of the question. Plus, the Kingston-class replacement isn't part of the NSS programmed projects. So the actual acquisition of these ships require a change to the NSS
Out of necessity, Davie got some F&O vessels (oil- off shore commercial conversions) along with the container commercial ship conversion for the RCN for a replacement replenishment ship due to delays procuring JSS. Davie may get a heavy icebreaker contract but SeaSpan should also do a heavy icebreaker as well. A third JSS might mitigate SeaSpan’s disappointment losing the second heavy icebreaker to Davie. In any event, CMMCs, two heavy icebreakers, and a third JSS, especially if all have a modest defence fit-out, will slow down the IOTUS’s whining. If not, his impending tariffs likely will screw any significant potential defence procurement, even with a new government.
 

downunderblue

Active Member
Quick and seemingly silly question from the other side of a massive pond, but why does Canada need a fleet of coastal defence ships?

If its more constabulary, where is the threat (fisheries?), if so why do you need VLS etc. If it's not then why wouldn't you just go to a small frigate from an established line (like a basic Mogami or ROK FFX etc) as boutique designs lead to risk and $$$?

I note the Kingston class really just had a 40mm cannon. Based upon the above, arent you experiencing some mission bracket creep going on, which screams to me (as an outsider) of trying to please everyone (politicians and accountants esp) but in the end pleasing no one (real world impact).

What about maybe buying the LCS' off the USN ... assuming they're ok to sell them (arent they decommissioning them early??) Again from a limited perspective/ POV on paper, wouldn't they be fine if you actually want a Costal defense vessel replacement or are happy to sit in that upgraded vessel mission set?

Just my 2 cents looking as an outsider, but from my observations Canadian politics seem to make defense procurement very scary and messy and I wonder are you seeing more of the same?
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Quick and seemingly silly question from the other side of a massive pond, but why does Canada need a fleet of coastal defence ships?

If its more constabulary, where is the threat (fisheries?), if so why do you need VLS etc. If it's not then why wouldn't you just go to a small frigate from an established line (like a basic Mogami or ROK FFX etc) as boutique designs lead to risk and $$$?

I note the Kingston class really just had a 40mm cannon. Based upon the above, arent you experiencing some mission bracket creep going on, which screams to me (as an outsider) of trying to please everyone (politicians and accountants esp) but in the end pleasing no one (real world impact).

What about maybe buying the LCS' off the USN ... assuming they're ok to sell them (arent they decommissioning them early??) Again from a limited perspective/ POV on paper, wouldn't they be fine if you actually want a Costal defense vessel replacement or are happy to sit in that upgraded vessel mission set?

Just my 2 cents looking as an outsider, but from my observations Canadian politics seem to make defense procurement very scary and messy and I wonder are you seeing more of the same?
Yes, Canadian defence procurement does indeed seem to be a bit of a mess and apparently has been for some time.

Having said that, as I understand it the Kingston-class really does need replacement, for a few reasons. The roles that the Kingston-class had been covering, MCM, constab/patrol and also some training, are things which the RCN does need, but in a more suitable vessel for the areas of operation. Due to the size and displacement, plus the seas where they operated, the Kingston-class has tended to be rather hard on the crew, so something with perhaps a little more displacement but also better dimensions would help. Once you make the vessel larger and more capable/appropriate for the areas, it becomes more valuable and therefore needs more consideration given to it being able to defend itself. This is particularly true if there might be contested sea ways in the Canadian North.

As for Canada and the LCS... For a SINKEX, perhaps... IIRC the LCS which are already being decommissioned are some of the early ones which have/have machinery issues mainly. These issues are 'fixable' but it is apparently cost prohibitive to do so, again apparently costing less to just purchase new build vessels with the corrected/improved machinery, rather than have the existing vessels go back into a shipyard to get cut apart to remove the old machinery before installing the current/new machinery. If one also recalls that the LCS were supposed to feature a range of different mission modules so that an LCS could get re-roled depending on mission needs. Unfort the US development of mission modules for LCS does seem to have been overly ambitious with the results ultimately falling well short. The end result being a frigate-sized vessel which packs the punch of a guided missile corvette, or maybe patrol boat. Sure, Canada could possibly purchase them, but then Canada would be receiving vessels which the USN disposed of very early because they were not really fit for service.
 
Out of necessity, Davie got some F&O vessels (oil- off shore commercial conversions) along with the container commercial ship conversion for the RCN for a replacement replenishment ship due to delays procuring JSS. Davie may get a heavy icebreaker contract but SeaSpan should also do a heavy icebreaker as well. A third JSS might mitigate SeaSpan’s disappointment losing the second heavy icebreaker to Davie. In any event, CMMCs, two heavy icebreakers, and a third JSS, especially if all have a modest defence fit-out, will slow down the IOTUS’s whining. If not, his impending tariffs likely will screw any significant potential defence procurement, even with a new government.
Davie is getting one Polar icebreaker contract, alongside the planned 6 Program Icebreakers as well. Seaspan is going to be incredibly busy building up to 16 Multi-Purpose Vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard after the two JSS, Polar icebreaker and misc other Coast Guard orders. These MPV's are going to be substantial vessels which will take many, many years to ultimately complete. It's fairly clear POTUS doesn't actually have any legitimate gripes with Canada and is just inflicting this economic pain largely to extract random concessions.

Quick and seemingly silly question from the other side of a massive pond, but why does Canada need a fleet of coastal defence ships?

If its more constabulary, where is the threat (fisheries?), if so why do you need VLS etc. If it's not then why wouldn't you just go to a small frigate from an established line (like a basic Mogami or ROK FFX etc) as boutique designs lead to risk and $$$?

I note the Kingston class really just had a 40mm cannon. Based upon the above, arent you experiencing some mission bracket creep going on, which screams to me (as an outsider) of trying to please everyone (politicians and accountants esp) but in the end pleasing no one (real world impact).

What about maybe buying the LCS' off the USN ... assuming they're ok to sell them (arent they decommissioning them early??) Again from a limited perspective/ POV on paper, wouldn't they be fine if you actually want a Costal defense vessel replacement or are happy to sit in that upgraded vessel mission set?

Just my 2 cents looking as an outsider, but from my observations Canadian politics seem to make defense procurement very scary and messy and I wonder are you seeing more of the same?
The CMMC program originally seems to have began as a 1:1 replacement of the Kingston class with a proper ocean-going OPV, something similar to the Royal Navy's Batch II River class. The Navy wanted a vessel that can do the same roles as the aforementioned vessel, alongside taking on MCM duties from the Kingston. This was taken under consideration at a time when the RCN was seeing most of its effort and funds go into the CSC program, so the ideas were kept very economical and unambitious to stay in their own lane. Role was constabulary work, mine warfare, counter-narcotics, etc.

As CSC had its cells cut back, world tensions increased and the RCN was seemingly looking at more budget in the future, there was a push to have some sort of increased combatant capability within the fleet. The Kingston replacement as seemingly morphed into some kind of smaller combatant to fill the Kingston's roles AND take on some limited combatant roles for the fleet as well. The role has seemingly evolved to something that can accompany the CSC as/be used as some kind of combatant escort while also undertaking more dangerous solo deployments (counter-terrorism, grey zone warfare) as well. These ships are not entirely for coastal protection and would very likely be deployed abroad to Europe, Africa, Indo-Pac, etc where the RCN operates now.

Procuring proper frigates puts the CSC program at risk of cut backs and cancelations by unaware politicians, the requirements for low manning levels, low cost and a built in Canada procurement ultimately kicks out any proper frigate or larger corvette. Outsourcing the build is largely impossible and there is no Canadian shipyards available or approved to build such large combatants. The National Shipbuilding Strategy requires all vessels above 1000t and are combatants to be built by Irving Shipbuilding, which is busy for the foreseeable future with the CSC program. The NSS program would need to be amended to allow another yard to build combatants/over 1000t ships, or the CMMC must be under 1000t.

Nobody wants LCS, they are troublesome and unsuitable for what we want with regards to cost in manpower and funds.

TLDR: RCN wants more combat capability on more ships but politics and manpower issues hamstring traditional options.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Quick and seemingly silly question from the other side of a massive pond, but why does Canada need a fleet of coastal defence ships?
Officially, I think it's reservist training, coastal patrol, minesweeping, law enforcement, pollution surveillance and search & rescue, & they're crewed by a mixture of regulars & reservists. None of that looks like fighting battles off Canada's coasts, but they're all jobs that need doing. Whether most of 'em should be navy or some other organisation is largely a matter of preference, I'd say.
 
Officially, I think it's reservist training, coastal patrol, minesweeping, law enforcement, pollution surveillance and search & rescue, & they're crewed by a mixture of regulars & reservists. None of that looks like fighting battles off Canada's coasts, but they're all jobs that need doing. Whether most of 'em should be navy or some other organisation is largely a matter of preference, I'd say.
Reservists don't have specific platforms anymore, they are integrated aboard effectively all ships throughout the Navy. S&R and pollution surveillance are also largely the duties of the Canadian Coast Guard and attached Fisheries Officers. Mine warfare, drug interdiction, foreign/domestic presence deployments, reinforcement of existing deployments with other RCN warships and now NORAD missile magazines/sensor nodes are the most likely roles now it seems.
 

Vanquish

Member

Preserver is starting to take shape. Wish Canada would build a couple more.
 

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Vanquish

Member
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"B" Jetty at Esquimalt was officially opened today although I don't believe it is complete as there is no crane yet. The new "B" jetty is 270m X 26m. "A" jetty when complete will be slightly longer at 305m X 22m. Nice to see some new infrastructure finally reaching completion.
 
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