The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Kupyansk area.

Kruglyakovka is now under full Russian control and Russian forces are expanding north and south from the village. Russia has forced a Ukrainian withdrawal from the salient near Berestovoe by threatening encirclement by pushing south out of Kruglaykovka and west towards Lozovoe. Russian forces also took Petroshavne, it appears the three-prongs of the offensive in this area are aimed at Borovoe. Lastly Russian forces continue to expand northwarth near Tabaevka. Near Sin'kovka Russian forces have taken new areas inside Petropavlovka and pushed west and east of Sin'kovka.


Helmet camera footage of Russian SpN assaulting a Ukrainian strong point near Petropavlovka. We get very short clips. One of the soldiers has a VSS variant rifle.


Russia is using UAV-dropped munitions to clear Ukrainian mines. Personally I wonder how they know they're there, I certainly can't see them, though the explosion illustrates that they got one.


Russian Kub strike on a building near Kupyansk. I suspect this is Petropavlovka. It's questionable how effective the relatively small munition is against a structure.


Russian bomb strike on Petropavlovka and strikes on Kupyansk including a bridge strike near Kupyansk-Uzlovoy.


Russian T-90A doing indirect fires near Kupyansk. We don't see the type often. It's not known if Russia is remanufacturing T-90As into T-90Ms like they did with older T-90 variants from the '90s.


An up-armored BM-27 on the Kupyansk area.


Oskol front.

Russian forces are now attacking Terny from the north, and are inside the village. They've also grabbed a foothold in Torskoe but Ukrainian forces counter-attacked and and expelled them.


Ukrainian T-64 in the Liman area takes up positions to fire but gets spooked by a Russian drone and artillery near-miss.


Seversk salient.


Serebryanka is still under Ukrainian control despite some reports to the contrary.


Russian stikes on Ukrainian positions.


Chasov Yar.

Russian forces are expanding the area of control south of Chasov Yar. Despite the substantial gain in the last update, the front here remains relatively static with rare interruptions.


Russian drones strikes on a Ukrainian M113 near Chasov Yar.


Russian TOS-1 fires, Chasov Yar.


Toretsk area.

Ukraine carried out a successful counter-attack in the southern part of Toretsk, pushing Russian forces back to the tree-line. The main question is the state of the mine complex next to downtown. Without capturing that Russia can't finish Toretsk.


A Russian soldier drops a mine-bundle through a hole in the roof of a building in Toretsk. This is a risky proposition at best, given the state of the building.


A series of Russian strikes on Ukrainian armored cars in Toretsk.


Russian wire-guided drone strikes on Ukrainian armored cars in Toretsk. Note they're often being used to finish off immobilized and abandoned vehicles. Ukraine tends to be pretty diligent about evacuating knocked out vehicles so finishing them off if they can't be captured is important for Russia.


Russian FPV drone strike hits a Ukrainian tank and causes the ammo to cook off.


Russian forces take out an M113 in Toretsk.


Ukrainian forces blowing up a multi-story building after retreating in Toretsk, reminiscent of fighting in Artemovsk/Bakhmut.


Russian forces evacuating civilians from Novgorodskoe. While the village is firmly in Russian hands, it's very much on the front lines still.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Pokrovsk area.

Russian forces have pushed slightly north out of Grodovka. There is also a Russian push westward out of Selidovo into the fields. They're approaching Grigorievka and Novoalekseevka. This push in principle supports a southern envelopment of Pokrovsk but it's some distance away and it could also end up veering southward. Lastly Russian forces have taken Vishnevo west of Selidovo.


A video of a Russian "platoon" assaulting a Ukrainian position. I put the platoon in quotations because it appears to be the composite assault platoon that Russian forces use. Two vehicles drop off infantry, likely 12 (two "squads" of 6). They then assault a Ukrainian strong-point in the tree line. The descrition credits some of the explosions to Russian FPV drones doing a sort of CAS.


Ukrainian soldiers allegedly from the 15th National Guard Bde are retreating from Pokrovsk firing into the tree-line. Interestingly enough their armored vehicle doesn't have a machinegun in the turret. I've often seen knocked out Ukrainian vehicles without a weapon in the turret and always assumed the crew took it when they bailed out but I'm now wondering how many never had one to begin with.


And another video of Ukrainian troops leaving selidovo in I think a Kirpi MRAP. These aren't firing anywhere and we get an interesting view from the infantry-man providing security for the squad as they pack up and leave.


And here we have a knocked out Roshel Senator, quite possibly trying to do the same as above, evacuate personnel out of Selidovo.


Another evacuation attempt out of Selidovo in either an armored car or MRAP. It gets hit by something or runs over a mine, unclear.


We have a Kozak-7 from the 15th National Guard Bde likely also escaping Selidovo, under fire. This one has something in the turret as we can see the shell casings fall forward.


Russian forces capture a knocked out YPR-765 near Pokrovsk.


Ukrainian CV90 hits a landmine, Pokrovsk area. I'm having a hard time making out the exact vehicle, though it looks plausible.


Russia takes out a VAB near Pokrovsk.


Russian wire-guided drone hitting an immobilized Bradley in the Pokrovsk area.


A Ukrainian T-72 getting hit on the Pokrovsk-Selidovo road.


Russian drone strike on a disabled MaxxPro near Selidovo.


Another captured M1 near Pokrovsk.


A captured Roshel Senator in Selidovo. The vehicle looks intact. Warning footage of corpses.


Ukrainian POW out of Selidovo and a couple of Ukrainian POWs from the 157th Infantry Bde.


Russian BM-27 operations. It still has the old unarmored ZiL truck chassis. They up-armored it.


A Russian T-72B3 of some variation with camouflage that makes it look like a hill. It's unclear if there's a drone cage underneath there, I suspect it's very likely. As a variation on the tank-shed and turtle-tank concept, we now have the "grassy knoll tank".


Some footage from the center of Novogrodovka, the town fell in August without heavy fighting. And some footage (3 videos) from inside Selidovo that shows the town took some damage but is mostly intact.


Kurakhovo area.

Russian forces have taken Kurakhovka and advanced along a wide area south-westward. They took Kremennaya Balka, entered Voznesenka and Novodmitrovka, have pushed into the fields south-west of Gornyak. They have also closed the gap between Kurakhovka and Ostroe, and are pushing in Volchanka. Some reports have Volchank and Il'yinka already take. From the east Russian forces have entered Kurakhovo proper and are fighting in the eastern part of the town. It probably goes without saying but I'll say it all the same, Gornyak has fallen.


A Ukrainian unit has shown up in the Kurakhovo area riding BvS 10 transports. 3 were hit recently all in the same area.


Ukrainian Leo-1 gets hit by a Lancet.


Unclear if it's the same Leo-1 above but it's also burned.


Russian strike takes out an M113 and then a quadcopter hunts the dismounts. You'll note a second vehicle escapes.


Russian FPV drone attempts to strike what looks like a Ukrainian Grad. We don't see the end because EW cuts out the video.


Russian FAB-3000 strike on Kurakhovo, allegedly striking the 46th Air-Mobile Bde.


Allegedly Ukrainian forces retreating from Izmailovka.


Russian soldiers show off an impressive under-ground shelter for allegedly Ukrainian UAV operators in the Kurakhovo area. This is definitely not an improvised construction.


Russian forces show 2 knocked out Kirpis in Ukrainsk and a third nearby.


A Ukrainian Kirpi and MaxxPro with drone cages in the Kurakhovo area.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ugledar area.

Russian forces have taken Novoukrainka, Shahtersk, Yasnaya Polyana and Maksimovka. Our of Bogoyavlenka they've pushed towards Trudovoe. The southern pincer is moving north rapidly. Pretty soon I will have to group this together as part of the Kurakhovo offensive. From the east Russian forces have taken Katerinovka.


West of Pobeda Russian Krasnopol' strike on what appears to be a knocked out Leo-2A4. The tank burns.


Russia takes out an M113 and then hunts the crew with drone-drops, near Yelizavetovka. Warning graphic footage.


Two Russian armored columns breaking through to Shahtersk. Note they're moving almost unopposed. We've seen this in a few situation recently, including the Russian move on Ostrovskoe. Earlier this year assaults like this would have cost Russian many vehicles. To me this is an indication that Russian success stems not from some tactical innovations or some fundamental shift in how they operate, though there are marginal improvements in some areas. Rather it stems from Ukrainian exhaustion of manpower and resources. It is of course possible that Russia is supressing Ukrainian forces so thoroughly and eliminating UAV teams so consistently that Ukraine can't put up an effective resistance but this seems substantially less likely to me.


Russian artillery bombardment of Bogoyavlenka.


A series of videos of FPV drone strikes on Ukrainian vehicles in the general area of Bogoyavlenka. Footage quality is poor so vehicle types can't be clearly made out.


Russian FPV drone strikes on Ukrainian positions near Bogoyavlenka.


Ukrainian Roshel Senator hit near Bogoyavlenka.


Allegedly Ukrainian infantry retreating near Maksimovka.


Allegedly Ukrainian POWs captured near Bogoyavlenka.


Russia hits allegedly a Ukrainian T-6BV. It's definitely a tank but we can't really make out the type.


Russian bomb strikes on Razliv north of Yasnaya Polyana, west of Kurakhovo.


An interesting story has shown up. Allegedly a Russian agent with US citizenship named Daniel Martindale managed to infiltrate the Ukraine and passed along information for two years. He specifically provied information that helped plan the assault on Bogoyavlenka, suggesting he had connections in the Ukrainian military. Russia's 36th MRBde together with Russian intelligence services evacuated him presumably prior to the assault. He is now speaking to the media and generally supporting Russia.


Zaporozhye.

Russian forces have taken a few small pieces near Levadnoe and have reached the low ground with the lakes. North-west of Levadnoe they gained a substantial amount of ground towards Ol'govskoe.


Russia's 1430th MRRgt training in Zaporozhye rear areas. They appear to be doing CASEVAC and first aid training. The 4-digit regiments are all from the '22 mobilization.


Dnepr front.

Russia hits a BAT UMG armored car, Tyaginka, Kherson region.


Russian Iskander strike on allegedly the staging area of Ukraine's 406th Arty Bde in the Kherson machinebuilding plant.


Russian strike in Kherson on allegedly a Ukrainian drone operator staging area.


Russian strikes on Ukrainian boats in the Dnepr.


Russian strike on either an IRIS-T or a decoy in the Krivoy Rog area.


Russian drone strike on a power-grid substation in Kherson region.


Black Sea.

Russian helicopter hunts Ukrainian unmanned boats. Note it carries R-73 missiles.


Russia launching Zala and Lancet UAVs from a boat using a catapult.


Russia continues to operate the re-armed captured Gyurza-M armored boat.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Strikes.

A series of Russian strikes on Kiev using large numbers of Shahed drones. Interruptions in power are reported, suggesting power grid infrastructure was targeted. We have at least one downed drone striking a residential building.


A Russian strike in Kiev missed a Patriot TEL in the Zhulyany airport. There are 11 TELs and 5 empty positions.


A Russian drone hit the Ukrainian military general headquarters.


Skynex fires in Kiev.


A near miss from a Ukrainian missile as a Shahed flies over Kiev in broad daylight.


Russian strikes landing in Odessa. Reportedly in one strike Russia used two Iskanders and 5 Kh-59/69s. One of the strikes was aimed at the rail bridge at Zatoka, yet again. Another was aimed at rail storage facilities.


Fragments of a Russian Kh-59 in Odessa.


Russian Shahed drones with a camera strike an infrastructure target in Sumy region. Blackouts were reported.


Russia hit a gas-compressor station in L'vov region.


Ukrainian crews dig out an unexploded Kinzhal munition in L'vov region.


Russia hit the Mirgorod airbase, home to the 831st Brigade. No BDA available.


Good footage of Starokonstantinov airbase shows two destroyed Su-24s and damage from Russian strikes.


A Ukrainian strike landed in Lugansk, target unclear.


Ukraine hit fuel storage in Svetlograd, Russia, in the Stavropol' area.


Three Ukrainian drones hit a powerplant in Bashkiriya but apparently did not substantial damage.


Ukrainian drones hit allegedly civilian targets in Berdyansk. On the wings of one of the drones was the slogan "Berdyansk is Ukraine or ruins". Reportedly three civilians were wounded and 6 buildings damaged.


A Ukrainian drone hit a multi-story residential building in Bryansk.


Ukraine hit an alcohol distillery in Voronezh and another unnamed industrial object. Reportedly 10 drones were downed, no word on how many hit their targets.


Ukraine hit the "SpetNaz University" in Gudermes, a training facility used by Chechen security forces. Note it's not affiliated with the GRU Spetznaz.


Russian Ka-52 intercepting a drone over Kaluga region. The type can carry Igla (and presumably Verba) MANPADS.


Another look at a downed Russian decoy drone with a reflector ball built in.


Russian oil refineries are being covered in anti-drone netting.


Some footage of Russian airbase Krymsk, Krasnodar area, shows protective barriers between aircraft, sometimes put right over the painted decoys.


Russia has also begun building what appear to be proper hardened air shelters.


The rate of Russian strikes seems to have hit a new high. In September Shahed strikes occurred every day, with an average of 44 per day, for October the number is 65 per day on average. Almost 7 000 Shahed strikes have occurred since the start of the year.


Thermobaric Shahed variants continue to appear.

 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Interesting bits.

Ukrainian forces captured an interesting T-90S tank shed. The T-90S is the export version, a limited number were repurposed for Russian service.


There are reports of Ukraine losing a Mi-24PU1, with the crew surviving.


An interesting video of a Ka-52M launching a Kh-39 missile.


Ukrainian SB-600 takes out a Russian Tor-M2, the crew bails out and apparently survives.


Russia's 14th SpN Bde using a UGV carrying essentially a VBIED in Ukraine. It's certainly less wasteful then converting MT-LBs into them.


An interesting Z-STS MRAP, Russian, knocked out. Note the HMG turret, and the EW system. It was probably being used as a transport for an assault team, like a BTR might be.


There has been much talk about Russia running out of armored vehicles at storage bases and I've never regarded the reasoning as particularly credible. Here we have first evidence that Russia will likely follow the same path with armored vehicles as they did with missiles and artillery shells. Russia has apparently sourced a batch of armored cars based on the Toyota Landcruiser chassis, possibly from the UAE. No doubt Russia will source vehicles from many other countries. It's unclear where these vehicles are going, one logical choice would be to send them to National Guard units to replace their BTRs and any BMPs they still have (they shouldn't have any but they might). But we could also see them in the war zone.

On a side note I have a very poor opinion of these types of armored cars. Streit Group is notorious for producing these kinds of vehicles and many have seen service in Ukraine. A very common one is the Roshel Senator. They tend to have poor off-road mobility and protection levels well below that of an MRAP. On a side-note even MRAPs aren't really ideal for the current war, tracked vehicles seem to do better in the terrain.

Another curious aside, I can't help but wonder if Russia has already imported BMP-1s or 2s, or something else of Soviet manufacture from some source and we simply wouldn't notice it.


Russian BMP-1AM with extra-armor. Note they didn't install the cages, just the panels. It's possible the cages got used for something else, like building a tank shed.


We have a pair of Russian T-80BVs with K-5 installed on the turret.


A rare Russian BREM-L. A small quantity of these were produced pre-war. However this one might be a war-time delivery. The extra-armor kit it carries is the same as the BMP-3M, and the normal BMP-3 hull doesn't carry mounting points for it. BMP-3Ms with mounting points for this armor only showed up in iirc 2020. I'm not aware of any pre-war BREM-L deliveries with those attachment points, suggesting the type is in production.


A converted T-62 to either serve as a mineclearing vehicle or an H-APC with a minetrawl, unclear.


A Russian soldier shows off apparently DPRK-supplied canned meat, presumably part of their military rations. He comments that it tastes ok, speculating that it tastes like a mix of chicken and beef.


Ukraine has begun construction of defenses in Dnepropetrovsk region.


An interesting look at a Ukrainian under-ground hospital that can handle 100 wounded per day. It was built with privately provided funds.


Ukrainian Leo-2A5 with K-1 and a drone-cage.


The L'vov Aircraft Repair Plant hands over an overhauled MiG-29.


Ukrainian F-16 over Dnepropetrovsk.


A nice photo of a Ukrainian Su-24M with a pair of SCALP-EGs.


More footage of Ukraine's 33rd Mech training with Leo-1s.


Swedish PBV 302s have arrived in Ukraine. The quantity is unclear.


Ukrainian GBU-39s being unpacked.


An interesting Ukrainian Varta-2 armord car with a Sich autocannon module.


Ukraine's 17th Tanks and 117th Mech are being reformatted into the 17th Heavy Mech Bde, presumably mirroring the US norm of two tank btlns and two mech btlns in IFVs. There are reports of a new 162nd Mech Bde.


A new Ukrainian brigade, the 155th Mech, is being trained in France. The unit will reportedly get French kit, namely VABs and Caeasr howitzers, and AMX-10RCs.


Croatia will reportedly hand over 30 M-84 MBTs and 30 M-80 IFVs. In exchange they will get a discount on some purchases they are making.


The first MEDEVAC Super Bisons are arriving in Ukraine.


There are reports Ukraine is pulling medical personnel out of rear end units and sending them to infantry brigades. Other reports talk about airfield support personnel, artillery crews, SAM and drone operators being converted to infantry.


Another prisoner exchange took place, 30 for 30. Reportedly it took place in Kursk region.


A strange thing took place in Kharkov. Ukraine's SBU arrested a scientist who was allegedly working from Ukraine on improving Russian Shahed catapults.

 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the lengthy update, Feanor. I haven’t been following the Russian side at all lately.

There are reports Ukraine is pulling medical personnel out of rear end units and sending them to infantry brigades. Other reports talk about airfield support personnel, artillery crews, SAM and drone operators being converted to infantry.
This has been confirmed by Ignat. Not sure how to cite a certain post from Facebook on the phone (I do not generally do Facebook at all), but maybe this link will work:


Screenshots from the post translated to English:

IMG_7876.jpeg

IMG_7877.jpeg
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Russia's central bank governor warns of more dramatic changes as economy drives inflation above target levels this is after interest rates had been lifted to twenty one percent and subsidies on housing stopped
 

KRAKATOA

New Member
The lack of support is still really puzzling to me.
Over the years Russia has conquered, in one way or another, quite a few countries. We haven't helped any of them at all. I'm afraid to say that the reason that Ukraine is receiving help is their positioning next to NATO and EU territory. From the perspective of non-western nations, it's one of those far-away-wars that they feel is none of their business.
 
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seaspear

Well-Known Member
Here is another author able to provide some evidence for both sides losses ,Russia in this has a higher rate of losses compared to Ukrainian
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
There has been much talk about Russia running out of armored vehicles at storage bases and I've never regarded the reasoning as particularly credible. Here we have first evidence that Russia will likely follow the same path with armored vehicles as they did with missiles and artillery shells. Russia has apparently sourced a batch of armored cars based on the Toyota Landcruiser chassis, possibly from the UAE. No doubt Russia will source vehicles from many other countries. It's unclear where these vehicles are going, one logical choice would be to send them to National Guard units to replace their BTRs and any BMPs they still have (they shouldn't have any but they might). But we could also see them in the war zone.

On a side note I have a very poor opinion of these types of armored cars. Streit Group is notorious for producing these kinds of vehicles and many have seen service in Ukraine. A very common one is the Roshel Senator. They tend to have poor off-road mobility and protection levels well below that of an MRAP. On a side-note even MRAPs aren't really ideal for the current war, tracked vehicles seem to do better in the terrain.

Another curious aside, I can't help but wonder if Russia has already imported BMP-1s or 2s, or something else of Soviet manufacture from some source and we simply wouldn't notice it.
I just realized, the way I wrote this is misleading. I didn't mean to imply that that Roshel Senator is made by Streit Group. It's obviously made by Roshel. It's a common example (in this war) of an armored vehicle made by putting an armored hull on a civilian truck/SUV chassis. These vehicles aren't great for actual warfare, being better for police actions. Up until now Russia has only made such ersatz vehicles in small quantities on military truck chassis. Now they're sourcing something of the sort from abroad. They're obviously better then nothing, but they're not good.

I checked out the article and am genuinely curious why anyone would use GDP as the major indicator of economic health in a wartime economy. This puzzled me so much that I tried to look up the author, Nicholas Larsen, to see if he is actually a trained economist, but I couldn’t really find any information about him or his background, which is a bit odd.

I'd recommending looking at historical war economy GDPs, and how they correct once the war economy is over. All that spending to produce weapons, supplies, and infrastructure obviously inflates GDP during wartime. However, much of this spending doesnt necessarily contribute to productive, long-term economic growth.

And sure, paying all those men big bucks to send them to the front puts money in people’s pockets. And of course, wages go up when you pull a bunch of people out of the productive economy to make war goods. It also limits your capacity to produce consumer goods to meet the populations demands. A symptom of that is the inflation we’re seeing in Russia.

While I certainly don’t claim that Russia’s economy is on the verge of collapsing (and I don’t know anyone respectable who does), it’s a stretch to say that ‘Russia’s economy continues to outperform.’ In my opinion, there’s a good chance we’re just seeing the typical artificial inflation of wartime economies.

I also find the notion that Russia’s economy is unaffected by sanctions questionable. The BoR recently mentioned them as partially responsible for inflation:
A little context, much of this discussion is a response to a claim by someone in this discussion that stated that Russia's economy and banking sector are collapsing, and that Russia no longer has a stock market. None of this was true. I think the general consensus here is that Russia's economy is hurting and has many problems. However Russia's economy has done better then many, myself included, would have expected and western sanctions haven't been as damaging as many predicted. I don't think anyone really thinks Russia's economy is doing great. But it's doing better then expected, which admittedly isn't the highest bar to clear.
 

Fredled

Active Member
Feanor said:
There are reports Ukraine is pulling medical personnel out of rear end units and sending them to infantry brigades. Other reports talk about airfield support personnel, artillery crews, SAM and drone operators being converted to infantry.
KipPotapych said:
This has been confirmed by Ignat. Not sure how to cite a certain post from Facebook on the phone (I do not generally do Facebook at all), but maybe this link will work
:
When, a few months ago, they were talking about mobilizing half a million men, they noticed that their army is 700 000 strong but only 200 000 are fighting on the front. Maybe they are sending these non combattant personnel to combat units.

KRAKATOA said:
I'm afraid to say that the reason that Ukraine is receiving help is their positioning next to NATO and EU territory. From the perspective of non-western nations, it's one of those far-away-wars that they feel is none of their business.
You shouldn't be afraid to say this: It's true. The reasoning behind helping Ukraine is that if Putin can invade Ukraine he can invade other countries as well in Europe.

I have thinking a long time about the reasons why non-western nations seem to ignore the war in Ukraine and keep their relations with Russia as if nothing happened.
I was watching the press conference with Sergei Lavrov and the foreign minister of Koweit. And before that, the BRICS conference in Kazan. And I was thinking how can they let Lavrov tell his lies again and again? Of course there is the good deals for cheap oil and other things that they can broker out thanks to the western sanctions on Russia.

But there is one more reason for this nonchalance. The reason is that many nations, and in particular Arab and Muslim ones, war between religious or ethnic groups is normal. They don't understand why they should react negatively when Russia is doing what their religious tribal nations are doing and were doing all the time. Putin is making his jihad, so what?

Ananda said:
Just like you say before that Russian economies is collapsing. However you can't provide data that shown collapsing and you back tracking on that. Even IMF data did not shown they (Russia) is collapsing.
How can you have data from Russia? And how can you have data on something that didn't happen yet?
Russia's economy has not collapsed but it will collapse or is in the process of collapsing because all the ingredients are there for a collapse and the main ingredient is war.
It takes more time for two reasons:
1/ The huge stack of assets that the West didn't manage to freeze.
2/ Increased trading and investing by countries not applying sanctions.
But these two things won't be enough to stop the bleeding.

Invading Ukraine was, in itself, a mistake. But the size and the volumes now involved in it is beyond imagination.
The waste of material and human ressources is huge. It's logical that the economy will collapse, if they keep on with this agenda.

Russia was already in a state of failure with its industry. Unable to maintain their industrial base without foreign expertise despite their industrial inheritage from the USSR. Russia's internal economy was already not the best, marred with inefficient management, poor investments in infrastructures and import dependence. This war is one more evidence of bad decision making, bad allocation of ressources and corruption. It will kill it.
 

rsemmes

Member
When, a few months ago, they were talking about mobilizing half a million men, they noticed that their army is 700 000 strong but only 200 000 are fighting on the front. Maybe they are sending these non combattant personnel to combat units.

You shouldn't be afraid to say this: It's true. The reasoning behind helping Ukraine is that if Putin can invade Ukraine he can invade other countries as well in Europe.
I have thinking a long time about the reasons why non-western nations seem to ignore the war in Ukraine and keep their relations with Russia as if nothing happened.
I was watching the press conference with Sergei Lavrov and the foreign minister of Koweit. And before that, the BRICS conference in Kazan. And I was thinking how can they let Lavrov tell his lies again and again? Of course there is the good deals for cheap oil and other things that they can broker out thanks to the western sanctions on Russia.
But there is one more reason for this nonchalance. The reason is that many nations, and in particular Arab and Muslim ones, war between religious or ethnic groups is normal. They don't understand why they should react negatively when Russia is doing what their religious tribal nations are doing and were doing all the time. Putin is making his jihad, so what?

You are a bit misleading there. Zaluhzny requested 500.000 men, Zelensky said no (and sent him to London). I don't consider a denied request "talking about something".

Maybe it is not "reasoning" but "interests", but you are right, Russia, and UK, and France, and US can invade "other countries" in Europe, and all over the world too.
Maybe non-western countries think that "Europe’s problems are not the world’s problems". On the other hand, yes, it is "normal". War is normal, it's just politics by other means. For politics, religion, ethnicity or economy; even to maintain own country 's world position.


BTW...
The Pentagon assesses that Ukraine has enough soldiers to fight for six to 12 more months, one official said. After that, he said, it will face a steep shortage. NYT

That could be a reason not to help Ukraine.
 
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rsemmes

Member
What I wonder is...

KYIV, Nov 4 (Reuters) - Ukraine would not be opposed if Qatar or any other country were to negotiate an agreement on energy security via separate talks with Ukraine and Russia, a top Ukrainian presidential official said in a televised interview released on Monday.

If Zelensky is, in diplomatic language, requesting to start negotiations about energy and, maybe, later on, about peace?


Zelenskyy raised the prospect of a preemptive Ukrainian strike on camps where the North Korean troops are being trained and said Kyiv knows their location. But he said Ukraine can't do it without permission from allies to use Western-made long-range weapons to hit targets deep inside Russia.

I also wonder about his insistence on those missiles, he can "drone" Moscow. I also doubt that he knows the location, maybe he means that NATO knows the location.
Zelensky is recruiting 200.000 men (I am including 40.000 deserters), what does he think those 10.000 NK troops are going to achieve?


Out of curiosity, I wonder what word Sirskiy used and how can it be translated, in the context of "holding back/restraining" the Russian offensive.
 

Feanor

Super Moderator
Staff member
When, a few months ago, they were talking about mobilizing half a million men, they noticed that their army is 700 000 strong but only 200 000 are fighting on the front. Maybe they are sending these non combattant personnel to combat units.
There is typically a high ratio of troops not on the front lines supporting those who are. For every infantryman you need truck drivers, medical personnel, warehouse soldiers, vehicle maintenance guys, artillery, radio operators, air defense crews, aircraft crews, ship crews, etc. Sending people from the rear to the front can be a good decision in principle when there are too many people in the rear, suggesting your structure was bloated to begin with or suggesting that heavy infantry losses have reduced how many support personnel you truly need. While in the second scenario it would still be a good decision, it would indicate a bad situation. In the first scenario it would indicate some issues with the Ukrainian military at an institutional level. For medical personnel for example a good indication would be if military medical personnel are being under-utilized. I.e. the hospitals are short on patients and these soldiers don't have much to do. For air defense personnel it would suggest that Ukraine has a very robust air defense grid and isn't letting inbounds through and has extra soldiers sitting around. I don't think either one is true, suggesting that Ukraine isn't trimming the fat, but instead is willing to accept worse medical service and worse air defenses in exchange for replacing losses at the front.
 

seaspear

Well-Known Member
Re the Russian economy and the effects of war there seems to be a comparison to the effects on the US after the Vietnam war
I could go into the effects from the Afghanistan and Iraq wars, although many jobs were created after these wars there are no economic returns and the US has been shown to of got a better result economically if investing at home in social and other programs
Ukraine may be bailed out post war by the E.U and U.S and other countries Im not sure who bails out Russia having lost much of its energy market
 

KipPotapych

Well-Known Member
I don't think either one is true, suggesting that Ukraine isn't trimming the fat, but instead is willing to accept worse medical service and worse air defenses in exchange for replacing losses at the front.
It says in very direct terms in the Ignat’s post I cited above that this is happening due to the “overwhelmingly failed mobilization and motivation”. In spite of commons sense and Ignat’s words, I understand it is reasonable for some to assume that this is all from “strength of the million-man army” (it was reported to be a million-men army, not 700K that they “suddenly noticed” and it was discussed here previously). Rather amazing to me, but it is what it is and freedom of thought is a fundamental right, haha.


Meduza reported today in English (citing a another source in Russain) about the first version of the “peace draft” from early March. Those interested can read the article here (the source in Russian is cited in the article for those wanting to read the original text):


A few to things to note are Russia was making a lot of concessions as situation on the ground and negotiations progressed; security guarantees in the like of the article 5 were part of the agreement (no one asked the guarantors though, I am assuming, and I sure they would reject he idea), etc. The article also mentions that after the Kursk invasion, Putin is basically leaning towards the fight until Ukraine capitulates completely. That is according to some source “familiar with current Putin’s position on negotiations”.


BBC’s HARDTalk interviewed Kelin (Russian ambassador to the UK). Those interested can give it a listen here (lots of rubbish, btw):


As per Kelin, there will be no compromises and Russia will not return any of the occupied territories (that he says was a possibility in 2022). (To add an edit here, something came to me after posting: when he was asked about Medvedev’s statements, he said that there are only three people who can seriously/officially talk on the subject and neither Medvedev nor Kelin himself are among those people - I think he said Putin, Lavrov, and… hmm I don’t remember). They discuss other topics as well, including Georgia and Moldova. On this subject, though outside of the scope of this thread, but for humour purposes, the first and third headlines at Politico (.eu) today are rather funny:

IMG_7896.jpeg

Of note, the second headline is rather funny too (I didn’t read the article).
 
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Fredled

Active Member
rsemmes said:
Zelensky said no
I don't think that Zelensky decides. It's not that simple. Putin himself failed to undertake a second mobilisation.

rsemmes said:
and UK, and France, and US can invade "other countries" in Europe, and all over the world too.
No. Uk, France and the US and any other civilised countries can't invade because it's not in the mentalities anymore to make war against each other in Europe or elsewhere. In Europe it's simply unthinkable.

The US has invaded Iraq and it was the biggest stupidity in the entire history of North America. Except Iraq, Western countries make military interventions oversea to support one party over another, but they don't invade. France has never invaded Mali. Allies never invaded Syria or Kurdistan when they fought against ISIS. And Afghanistan has never been really invaded when they fought against al-Qaida. We never invaded Serbia. It doesn't mean that these military interventions are always good. But they are not invasions. Currently, in Europe, and pratically in the whole world, only Russia is invading another country.

rsemmes said:
The Pentagon assesses that Ukraine has enough soldiers to fight for six to 12 more months, one official said. After that, he said, it will face a steep shortage.

That could be a reason not to help Ukraine.
That could a good reason to help Ukraine more, IMO. In any case we should help Ukraine more.

rsemmes said:
If Zelensky is, in diplomatic language, requesting to start negotiations about energy and, maybe, later on, about peace?
More and more pundits speculate about secret preparations for peace talks, but honestly, I think, they are still very far from it.
Protecting energy infrastructures, demining and the Grain Corridor are topics which are more palatable to raise with wannabe neutral countries who still want to help Ukraine while keeping their "neutrality" intact. By "neutrality", understand good relations with Russia.
Zelensky must tackle these topics if he wants aid from these countries.

rsemmes said:
Zelenskyy raised the prospect of a preemptive Ukrainian strike on camps where the North Korean troops are being trained and said Kyiv knows their location. But he said Ukraine can't do it without permission from allies to use Western-made long-range weapons to hit targets deep inside Russia.

I also wonder about his insistence on those missiles, he can "drone" Moscow. I also doubt that he knows the location, maybe he means that NATO knows the location.
1/ First of all, there is a technical reason: When Ukrainians use drones for a long range attack Deep Inside Russia, it takes them months to prepare. Sometimes over a year. If the hurry, they will likely fail and lose precious long range drone or demstically produced missiles. They can;t do semi-random strikes with multiple volleys on multiple targets as the Russians do. When they strike far inside Russia, they have only one shot.

if they want to strike the training camps where North Koreans are being trained, they better do it quickly because a camp is, by definition, a temporary location. Even f they are in a base, they may not be there anymore once the plan is ready.
With Western cruise missiles, they can strike much faster, In a matter of days, maybe one week. Even with cruise missiles, it takes some amount of preparation.

2/ Second, it's a way for Zelinsky to involve the US. To say that it's as much their problem as Ukraine's. That it's the duty of the US to act.
However, the US is not willing to engage combat with North Korea, no matter who is the next President.

Feanor said:
While in the second scenario it would still be a good decision, it would indicate a bad situation.
I agree.
The only fact that they need to find 200 000 men ASAP shows that the situation is difficult.
It's just logical that they will start to mobilise military personel first. Of course not the essential ones, like surgeons, drone experts, experienced air defense operators and the likes, but rather those siting in offices or warehouses with no real job. I suspect that they can find a few thousands like these, without reducing the quality of essential services.
It would not make sens to ask civilians to fight on the front line while carrier military workers stay confortably in the rear.
That doesn't mean that Ukraine don't need to also mobilise and motivate civilians. Money is the main ingredient for motivation.

About Moldova and Georgia:
Despite large Russian interference that should be accounted for, the results of the polls were disapointing for Europe. In both countries, pro-European parties and presidents won by a thin margin. While it can be understandable for Georgia because it's not an European country (despite what others may say), for Moldova it's incomprehensible. It should be soemthing like 70 or 80% pro Europeam. Russian propagand should not be able to influence that much the election if the population is convinced that the European way is the best way.
With the war in Ukraine, it's even more diffficult to understand how some people in Moldova can vote for pro-Russian parties.
 

Ananda

The Bunker Group
Ukraine may be bailed out post war by the EU and US and other countries Im not sure who bails out Russia having lost much of its energy market
This is sound more like what 'if' scenario. Ukraine might be bailed out, but depends whether after the War, Western tax payers still have appetites to finance Ukraine. Most likely scenario Ukraine has to sell more land right and state business to Western Investor. There are more likely scenario that Western Investors will own most of large Ukrainian business then China will own most of Russia ones.

Russia lost much of it's energy market ? The market data don't show that. Their energy export is keeping their global market share, only shifting to other parts of the world. Losing Western energy market is not the same at present time as losing much of the market. Non western market are continuing to increase their market share Vis a Vis Western market.
 

rsemmes

Member
I don't think that Zelensky decides. It's not that simple. Putin himself failed to undertake a second mobilisation.

No. Uk, France and the US and any other civilised countries can't invade because it's not in the mentalities anymore to make war against each other in Europe or elsewhere. In Europe it's simply unthinkable.

1/ First of all, there is a technical reason: When Ukrainians use drones for a long range attack Deep Inside Russia, it takes them months to prepare. Sometimes over a year. If the hurry, they will likely fail and lose precious long range drone or demstically produced missiles. They can;t do semi-random strikes with multiple volleys on multiple targets as the Russians do. When they strike far inside Russia, they have only one shot.

2/ Second, it's a way for Zelinsky to involve the US. To say that it's as much their problem as Ukraine's. That it's the duty of the US to act.
However, the US is not willing to engage combat with North Korea, no matter who is the next President.
Maybe you mean that Putin decided not undertake that mobilization. Yes, it not that simple (I am surprised you saying that: duty), but he is the President, isn't he?

Boris Johnson ordered the planning of a military operation against the Netherlands to retrieve COVID vaccines; not an invasion, just a SMO. You just need to give them the right circumstances.
How unthinkable do you think it is for the British Army to shoot British civilians on British soil? Just give them the right circumstances.
Are you calling US uncivilized? What do you mean by "each other"? What other is "thinkable"? Bombing is all good but you draw the line at invading? SF and bombing still good for you? What is the difference between invaded and "really invaded"?

Over a year? Have you being doing that planning or where is that data coming from?

Yes, Zelensky's delusional plan of NATO fighting his war, Zelensky telling the uncivilized US what its duty is; that simple.

You are telling those countries what their mentality is and Zelensky is telling US what its duty is, that simple; but, of course, the willingness ("mentality") to invade is not the capacity/ability (can) to invade.
Coming back to the reality of the battlefield... Putin took a decision based on his view of Russian interests (invasion) as Zelensky took a decision based on his view of Ukraine interests (and its capacities, but maybe not a very accurate view of those.)
 
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