The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

Ananda · Nov 1, 2024

Fredled said:
didn't say that China will own everything in Russia. I said that they will own all the profitable non-petroleum industries.

Do you have data to back it up ? Cause market data only shown what most Chinese investor take over now is what Western investor left. Or are you up set that Chinese own almost everything that Western Investors have before in Russia.

Fredled said:
Putin is going to lose against the West and his regime will collapse by internal discontent. Putin himself plays another bad horse with Iran. It's only a matter of when, not if, his regime will collapse. Simply because he takes the wrong decisions.

This is more a wishful thinking rather then critical analysis base on data trend on what actually happened. No worries, many Western especially US and UK base think tanks now also give wishful analysis rather then critical thinking.

This is more on thinking that backing up toward those that US and Allies don't like, then you will doomed. Well that's perhaps what happen three to two decades ago after last cold war ended. Time changes now.

Feanor · Nov 1, 2024

personaldesas said:
Germany has seen a broad improvement in relationships across the board, as did most other Axis countries (everyone loves Italy). While I’m not suggesting this is a reproducible phenomenon that will always follow wars, I don’t think it can be explained solely by the specifics of any two countries if it was such a widespread occurrence.

Sure, it wasn't just the specifics of those two. But it took a lot to get there.

As much as any country is the same compared to a century ago.

There's a much greater continuity in a country like the USA for example. The territory is largely the same and there's an uninterrupted government still operating under the same constitution. The population saw many new waves of immigrants but the population that was there in '42 hasn't gone anywhere. Compared to that Poland for example was one form of government when it was invaded by Germany, another under Germany occupation, a third one under socialist rule and now a fourth one following the fall of the socialist bloc. So I would argue that no, not as much as any other country.

personaldesas said:
The lack of support is still really puzzling to me. It forces Ukraine into an unfavorable peace deal and sets yet another precedent that bullies can throw their weight around, start wars, shift borders, and get away with it, even when the victims are associates of the West, with obvious implications for countries like Taiwan.

I think when historians look back on this conflict, they’ll likely say that Russia won in large part due to its success and skill in the information space, gradually eroding public support within the countries supplying Ukraine.

Is Russia eroding the support or is this an intrinsic feature of public politics in many democratic countries? Again I'm not sold that Russia has been all that effective. Rather I suspect they correctly predicted something that's been a feature for a while and are leaning on it. I don't know how much this logic applies to Taiwan since the geography and situation there makes a long ground war unlikely in my opinion.

personaldesas · Nov 1, 2024

Feanor said:
There's a much greater continuity in a country like the USA for example. The territory is largely the same and there's an uninterrupted government still operating under the same constitution. The population saw many new waves of immigrants but the population that was there in '42 hasn't gone anywhere. Compared to that Poland for example was one form of government when it was invaded by Germany, another under Germany occupation, a third one under socialist rule and now a fourth one following the fall of the socialist bloc. So I would argue that no, not as much as any other country.

I think the form of government, while definitely relevant, holds less sway over the continuity of national identity than other factors do. The essence of what it means to be part of a nation (and its narrative of friends/enemies) goes beyond just political structures. Population shifts may get closer to the core, but I believe the reasons for change in animosity or affinity are more practical.

Many of these historical grievances are so distant that the majority of people today (often even their parents or grandparents) have no or much less direct connection to them. They’ve become abstract, and with that abstraction comes less emotional weight. Over time, national narratives evolve, and new experiences reshape collective memory. This is why, for instance, many Poles harbor stronger feelings toward Russia than Germany. the memories of Russian subjugation are recent, often within living memory, while animosities with Germany are receding into history.

Sorry for going a bit deeper off-topic here. I am new in this forum, so if this is against the rules, let me know!

personaldesas · Nov 1, 2024

Feanor said:
Is Russia eroding the support or is this an intrinsic feature of public politics in many democratic countries? Again I'm not sold that Russia has been all that effective. Rather I suspect they correctly predicted something that's been a feature for a while and are leaning on it.

This exploitation of democracy's freedom of speech and open debate can definitely be highly destabilizing and help an adversary's casue. So I think it t’s definitely a fair question. I don't know, and I can really only offer personal anecdotes rather than hard data. But in Germany, at least, Ive noticed how deeply some of these false or subtly twisted narratives, often very favorable to Russia, have taken root in the public consciousness. Some people even seem increasingly drawn to the idea of Russia as a bastion of free speech and a kind of advanced superpower, which is quite detached from reality.

Feanor · Nov 1, 2024

personaldesas said:
I think the form of government, while definitely relevant, holds less sway over the continuity of national identity than other factors do. The essence of what it means to be part of a nation (and its narrative of friends/enemies) goes beyond just political structures. Population shifts may get closer to the core, but I believe the reasons for change in animosity or affinity are more practical.

Many of these historical grievances are so distant that the majority of people today (often even their parents or grandparents) have no or much less direct connection to them. They’ve become abstract, and with that abstraction comes less emotional weight. Over time, national narratives evolve, and new experiences reshape collective memory. This is why, for instance, many Poles harbor stronger feelings toward Russia than Germany. the memories of Russian subjugation are recent, often within living memory, while animosities with Germany are receding into history.

Sorry for going a bit deeper off-topic here. I am new in this forum, so if this is against the rules, let me know!

I think we should nip this tangent. I think you've got a good point, but in that case when we're talking about good future relations between Russia and Ukraine, we're talking 2-3 generations down the line with ideally some closer thing to obscure the older animosity. I guess Russia can hope that Poland invades Ukraine right after this war, and takes the place of Russia as the hostile entity. But realistically I don't think we will see good relations between the current Russia and the current Ukraine any time soon.

personaldesas said:
This exploitation of democracy's freedom of speech and open debate can definitely be highly destabilizing and help an adversary's casue. So I think it t’s definitely a fair question. I don't know, and I can really only offer personal anecdotes rather than hard data. But in Germany, at least, Ive noticed how deeply some of these false or subtly twisted narratives, often very favorable to Russia, have taken root in the public consciousness. Many people even seem increasingly drawn to the idea of Russia as a bastion of free speech and a kind of advanced superpower, which is quite detached from reality.

Often the opposition to the current course will look at what they call good and call it bad, and vice-versa. It's often hard for people to grasp that the opposite of the "wrong" position can also be wrong. The opposite of a bad thing can be worse than the bad thing itself. There is a fairly solid consensus among governing elites across the western world that what Russia did in invading Ukraine should not be tolerated. Consequently someone in opposition to those elites, for whatever reason, is tempted to take the reverse position. Since you can't just support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the justification is too ludicrous to have merit, they often take some sideways angle or some stance on relations with Russia that isn't necessarily an outright support of Russia but an attempt to change the direction of things. In a way this is almost the function of opposition parties in a democracy; provide the alternative option. It's for the public to decide if they like it or not. Long wars without major events changing the course of the war visibly tend to tire out the public. And the war in Ukraine is exactly that kind of war. The war went through several stages, including Russia's failed invasion, Ukraine's mostly successful counter-attack, a long positional phase, and now a Russian offensive gaining ground. These stages matter and they have a fairly substantial impact on the outcome of this war. Not much is going on from a layman's perspective. No large cities have changed hands, territorial changes are relatively minor, not much new has been said by either side. Suddenly the opposition that's saying "this won't work", "they made the wrong decision when they just backed Ukraine" starts to sound good. Add in some of the recent economic woes and you have a recipe for some shift in public attitudes. It's also hard to scare people with the Russian threat when Russia is tripping over it's own shoelaces somewhere in far-away eastern Ukraine. If anything Russia's own failures probably contributed to this as well.

personaldesas · Nov 1, 2024

Feanor said:
Often the opposition to the current course will look at what they call good and call it bad, and vice-versa. It's often hard for people to grasp that the opposite of the "wrong" position can also be wrong. The opposite of a bad thing can be worse than the bad thing itself. There is a fairly solid consensus among governing elites across the western world that what Russia did in invading Ukraine should not be tolerated. Consequently someone in opposition to those elites, for whatever reason, is tempted to take the reverse position. Since you can't just support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, the justification is too ludicrous to have merit, they often take some sideways angle or some stance on relations with Russia that isn't necessarily an outright support of Russia but an attempt to change the direction of things. In a way this is almost the function of opposition parties in a democracy; provide the alternative option. It's for the public to decide if they like it or not. Long wars without major events changing the course of the war visibly tend to tire out the public. And the war in Ukraine is exactly that kind of war. The war went through several stages, including Russia's failed invasion, Ukraine's mostly successful counter-attack, a long positional phase, and now a Russian offensive gaining ground. These stages matter and they have a fairly substantial impact on the outcome of this war. Not much is going on from a layman's perspective. No large cities have changed hands, territorial changes are relatively minor, not much new has been said by either side. Suddenly the opposition that's saying "this won't work", "they made the wrong decision when they just backed Ukraine" starts to sound good. Add in some of the recent economic woes and you have a recipe for some shift in public attitudes. It's also hard to scare people with the Russian threat when Russia is tripping over it's own shoelaces somewhere in far-away eastern Ukraine. If anything Russia's own failures probably contributed to this as well.

That’s certainly a plausible perspective, and I tend to think these dynamics are rarely driven monocausaly anyway. One factor doesn’t necessarily rule out the other.

Feanor said:
I don't know how much this logic applies to Taiwan since the geography and situation there makes a long ground war unlikely in my opinion.

I do believe the current conflict might offer insight into how willing and capable the West (and its need to consider public opinion), might be to support a partner nation against a significantly larger aggressor, and how an adversary might need to prepare and operate to restrain that help.

Fredled · Nov 1, 2024

Ananda said:
Do you have data to back it up ? Cause market data only shown what most Chinese investor take over now is what Western investor left.

That's exactly what I mean. And it's only the beginning.
By investors, it's Chinese state owned (or partially state owned) companies, if not the Chinese state directly.

I'm not upset. I'm glad for the Chinese. I think that stopping making business with Russia was the right thing to do because of the risk that business interfere with defence policies. The least we have beans to count with Russia, the more we have free hands to act.

Ananda said:
This is more a wishful thinking rather then critical analysis base on data trend on what actually happened. No worries, many Western especially US and UK base think tanks now also give wishful analysis rather then critical thinking.

No, the data trend is not good. Putin is ruling Russia like a fool. Everything he does is a receipt for collapse.
______________________

Poland has started the construction of fortification structures on its border with Russia and Belarus as part of the large-scale project East Shield.

A drone targeted an oil depot in Russia’s Stavropol region

Ukrainians denies Russian's capture of Torsek and Chasiv Yar.

personaldesas · Nov 1, 2024

Ananda said:
No worries, many Western especially US and UK base think tanks now also give wishful analysis rather then critical thinking.

Could you expand on what you mean by “Western think tanks” here? Are there particular organizations or analyses you’re referring to that seem more like wishful thinking than critical analysis? It feels like you might be painting with a broad brush here, and I’m curious if there are specific examples. Also, what specific sources would you recommend as alternatives? I’d be interested in your perspective.

Feanor · Nov 1, 2024

I will try to do an update one of these next couple of days. The front line is moving almost exclusively in the Donetsk area, the teeth of Russia's offensive are closing. There's still a ways to go but it seems likely Kurakhovo will fall before the end of November, certainly before the end of the year. Russian movements elsewhere remain slower, except the Oskol front where Russia is pushing actively both in the Kupyansk area and near the Terny-Torskoe area trying to get rid of the rest of Ukraine's positions east of the Zherebets. Ukranian forces are retreating in the area north of the reservoir, and Russian forces either have reached the northern shore or are about to near Il'yinka. Ukraine did carry out a sizeable successful counterattack in a suburb of Toretsk, and in general Russia's effort there seems stalled. It's unclear if this is because Russia has shifted resources towards closing the Kurakhovo operation or for other reasons.

Ananda · Nov 1, 2024

Fredled said:
the data trend is not good. Putin is ruling Russia like a fool. Everything he does is a receipt for collapse.

That's a wishful thinking, as you again claim from Putin, Iran and seems every one that are not in Western trend favour as going to collapse. Just like you claim Xi beting wrong horse with Putin.

Just like you say before that Russian economies is collapsing. However you can't provide data that shown collapsing and you back tracking on that. Even IMF data did not shown they (Russia) is collapsing.

personaldesas said:
feels like you might be painting with a broad brush here, and I’m curious if there are specific examples.

It is broad brush as basically increasingly US and UK think thanks talking like political activist on their asssesment on Russia. Russia is going to collapse, Russia is loosing the War, Russia is increasingly isolated by Internasional community. Russia is isolated by Western community but not Internasional community. As economic collapsing and loosing the war, the data in the ground are not showing that. Their economy is not in good order, but not much different then then most of Euro zone. Still not collapsing that Western think tanks keep saying in their analysis since the war started.

So yes I'm painting broad brush, as their analysis increasingly become political activism (as more polite word then propaganda).

personaldesas · Nov 1, 2024

Ananda said:
That's a wishful thinking, as you again claim from Putin, Iran and seems every one that are not in Western trend favour as going to collapse. Just like you claim Xi beting wrong horse with Putin.

Just like you say before that Russian economies is collapsing. However you can't provide data that shown collapsing and you back tracking on that. Even IMF data did not shown they (Russia) is collapsing.

It is broad brush as basically increasingly US and UK think thanks talking like political activist on their asssesment on Russia. Russia is going to collapse, Russia is loosing the War, Russia is increasingly isolated by Internasional community. Russia is isolated by Western community but not Internasional community. As economic collapsing and loosing the war, the data in the ground are not showing that. Their economy is not in good order, but not much different then then most of Euro zone. Still not collapsing that Western think tanks keep saying in their analysis since the war started.

So yes I'm painting broad brush, as their analysis increasingly become political activism (as more polite word then propaganda).

Thanks for sharing your perspective, it's an interesting point. However, I noticed that my question about specific, representative examples wasnt really addressed, which makes it challenging to evaluate your claims.

Personally, I cant recall any credible voices on the topic who look at the current situation and suggest that Russia is losing the war or on the brink of collapse. Institutions like CEIP seem to do pretty level headed work.

If Western experts are indeed consistently delivering intentionally inaccurate assessments and propaganda, justifying an outright rejection of most western made analyses from the outset, then providing concrete evidence to support this should not be too challenging.

It would also be interesting to hear what alternative assessments and analyses you find more accurate and would recommend to the rest of us.

Ananda · Nov 1, 2024

personaldesas said:
However, I noticed that my question about specific, representative examples wasnt really addressed, which makes it challenging to evaluate your claims.

You are new here, thus let me summarize on what I have been put in this thread or Russian threads since the war started. I'm working in financial market, thus I only believe on real market data. I always support free western financial market, and I deplored Western politicians that increasingly weaponise the Market, which resulted force increasing global south players try to find and build less efficient and more expensive alternatives financial-capital transactions Interchange.

Again I deplore those who talk outside reality on trade data, and keep talking to claim Russia collapsing trend, eventough the data not showing that. Just to justify continuing weaponise the market, disrupt that with sanctions and try forcing those outside the West to follow Western opinion on this war.

Most outside the West did not support Russia invasion and vote against Russia in UN. However vote against West in UN on Russia sanctions. This as they don't want to be dictate by West on who they should be allowed to trade with.

Are Western sanctions against Russia working?

www.orfonline.org

This is.an example of non Western think tank view on Western sanctions.

Sanctions against Russia are working, but unlike Iran or North Korea, the elements of national power; population size, resource basket, and wealth—are in favour of Russia, which sustains its role as a global energy exporter. This means that the 45 countries that sanctioned Russia would have to globally isolate the latter first to make sanctions work. Since it is not likely to happen in the short term, the lives of ordinary Russians may not radically change just yet.

That's the reality why most of Global South are keep trading with Russia. Means West now must increasingly sanctions Non Western entities that still trade with Russia. Technical Difficulties do you think those countries where the entities come from will stand still? This kind of sanctions are part of consultation service that Washington think tanks provide. They are basically push Washington to increase trade war.

So back to your asking me on specific. I put on reverse, which name in West I still follow on their opinions for this war. Well only very few and I put one name John Mearsheimer as example, as he talk more on realism on Geopolitics. As he also not trying to force the rest of world to follow US and Allies thinking in this war.

personaldesas · Nov 2, 2024

Ananda said:
You are new here, thus let me summarize on what I have been put in this thread or Russian threads since the war started. I'm working in financial market, thus I only believe on real market data. I always support free western financial market, and I deplored Western politicians that increasingly weaponise the Market, which resulted force increasing global south players try to find and build less efficient and more expensive alternatives financial-capital transactions Interchange.

Again I deplore those who talk outside reality on trade data, and keep talking to claim Russia collapsing trend, eventough the data not showing that. Just to justify continuing weaponise the market, disrupt that with sanctions and try forcing those outside the West to follow Western opinion on this war.

Most outside the West did not support Russia invasion and vote against Russia in UN. However vote against West in UN on Russia sanctions. This as they don't want to be dictate by West on who they should be allowed to trade with.

Are Western sanctions against Russia working?

Are Western sanctions against Russia working?

www.orfonline.org

This is.an example of non Western think tank view on Western sanctions.

That's the reality why most of Global South are keep trading with Russia. Means West now must increasingly sanctions Non Western entities that still trade with Russia. Technical Difficulties do you think those countries where the entities come from will stand still? This kind of sanctions are part of consultation service that Washington think tanks provide. They are basically push Washington to increase trade war.

So back to your asking me on specific. I put on reverse, which name in West I still follow on their opinions for this war. Well only very few and I put one name John Mearsheimer as example, as he talk more on realism on Geopolitics. As he also not trying to force the rest of world to follow US and Allies thinking in this war.

Thank you for taking the time to elaborate. I have to respectfully disagree, as I don’t find all of these points entirely convincing. That said, to avoid veering too far off-topic here (again, sorry), Id be glad to revisit this discussion when its more directly relevant to the ongoing developments in the conflict, including a closer examination of the economic data to explore where our views may differ.

Ananda · Nov 2, 2024

personaldesas said:
I have to respectfully disagree, as I don’t find all of these points entirely convincing

Sanctions Notwithstanding, Russia’s Economy Continues to Outperform

The sanctions Western powers inflicted on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine may have had some effects, but they are not evident in the country’s gross domestic product, which is outperforming the countries that imposed the sanctions. However, with rising inflation and interest rates, Russia’s...

internationalbanker.com

No problem, prospect of Russian economy always been debated. As for me I always look on data, and despite inflated data by Russian, people in market will find ways to get more realistic number. The article above is just an example.

Russian economy will not be in good condition as before the war. It has potential to slow down, due to prospect of commodities market next year. However also not collapsing. Thus the talk of Putin will bring Russia crashing down at this moment, more as wishful thinking.

India silent after U.S. sanctions 19 Indian entities for ‘Russia links’

India has not responded to U.S. sanctions on Indian entities linked to Russia, amid escalating tensions with Canada.

www.google.com

This I put here, as this is related to this war. So far India still silence, also Turkiye, UAE and China. However knowing India (eventough I'm not Indian), they are will put position of wait and see how this is progressing.

Indian firms targeted in US sanctions amid fresh crackdown on Russia

The action, taken by the US Treasury and State departments, imposed sanctions on nearly 400 entities and individuals from over a dozen different countries, according to statements from the Treasury and State departments.

www.google.com

The US has repeatedly warned against supplying Russia with Common High Priority Items - advanced components including microelectronics deemed by the US and European Union as likely to be used for Russia's war in Ukraine. "This should send a serious ...

Put that in quote, as from what I heard Indian will see what's this means. If the advance components that being talk is US and Allies origin, I suspect they will put position to lay low. However if the advance components is Indian origin or Non Western origin, it is another matter. The later one means US try to dictate India on not to trade with Russia. India will not going to take that lightly.

Trump campaign makes gesture to Indian American circle and Modi's government that he will give different approach toward India. This come out after state department latest sanctions. Like it or not, US will not going to get better friends in India asside Modi and His BJP. US need India if want to find prospective rival to China in Asia, and find other sources of large base friends shoring industrial chains.

Just to shown times are changing, and global south is not as easy push overs as in two or three decades ago to be dictate to follow Western command. This especially with Russian sanctions.

seaspear · Nov 2, 2024

I don't believe you can accept information coming from Russia as accurate as these posts show certinly raising interest rates to 21 percent then claiming inflation has fallen should raise doubts

Certainly this article states that the the IMF has no real access to scrutinise the Russian economy

With ‘Zero Visibility’ into the Russian Economy, the IMF is Parroting Putin’s Line

Rather than admitting ignorance, write Yale’s Jeffrey Sonnenfeld, Stephen Roach, and Steven Tian, the IMF is accepting the Kremlin’s statistics—and fueling pessimism about the impact of sanctions.

insights.som.yale.edu

personaldesas · Nov 2, 2024

Ananda said:
Sanctions Notwithstanding, Russia’s Economy Continues to Outperform

The sanctions Western powers inflicted on Russia for its invasion of Ukraine may have had some effects, but they are not evident in the country’s gross domestic product, which is outperforming the countries that imposed the sanctions. However, with rising inflation and interest rates, Russia’s...

internationalbanker.com

I checked out the article and am genuinely curious why anyone would use GDP as the major indicator of economic health in a wartime economy. This puzzled me so much that I tried to look up the author, Nicholas Larsen, to see if he is actually a trained economist, but I couldn’t really find any information about him or his background, which is a bit odd.

I'd recommending looking at historical war economy GDPs, and how they correct once the war economy is over. All that spending to produce weapons, supplies, and infrastructure obviously inflates GDP during wartime. However, much of this spending doesnt necessarily contribute to productive, long-term economic growth.

And sure, paying all those men big bucks to send them to the front puts money in people’s pockets. And of course, wages go up when you pull a bunch of people out of the productive economy to make war goods. It also limits your capacity to produce consumer goods to meet the populations demands. A symptom of that is the inflation we’re seeing in Russia.

While I certainly don’t claim that Russia’s economy is on the verge of collapsing (and I don’t know anyone respectable who does), it’s a stretch to say that ‘Russia’s economy continues to outperform.’ In my opinion, there’s a good chance we’re just seeing the typical artificial inflation of wartime economies.

I also find the notion that Russia’s economy is unaffected by sanctions questionable. The BoR recently mentioned them as partially responsible for inflation:

Bank of Russia said:
Over the medium-term horizon, the balance of inflation risks is still significantly tilted to the upside. The key risks are associated with persistently high inflation expectations and the upward deviation of the Russian economy from a balanced growth path, as well as with a deterioration in foreign trade conditions. - Пресс-релиз | Bank of Russia

seaspear · Nov 2, 2024

This article goes into the Nazi pre ww2 manipulation of economic growth that much of the world admired was unsustainable with much of this committed to military spending ,was Germany then committed to a war or suffer economic consequences?
https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=ghj
This article though requiring detailed reading provides some understanding of effects of war on an economy and the world

https://adamtooze.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Tooze-Martin-Economics-of-War-Against-Hitler-CambHistWW2Vol3-1.pdf

Ananda · Nov 2, 2024

personaldesas said:
also find the notion that Russia’s economy is unaffected by sanctions questionable. The BoR recently mentioned them as partially responsible for inflation

I believe no one at least Serious economics and market analyst ever say Russian economy is unaffected by sanctions. Question is how far the effects fell by the economy. That's the debates are.

Again IMF doesn't work only from Russian data, they also look for market trade data to verify if the Russian data acceptable or not. Seems because IMF didn't completely support Western academia and think tanks agenda on picturing bleak economies prospect in Russia, then some will disrepute IMF findings. Well what's new on that.

For me, the Bankers data, the IMF still better then some think tanks that only say the data is wrong only on bases the Russian credibility in their eyes. Similar thing also happen when some Western academia question real China data. IMF and Bankers data not perfect, but for me they do have better credibility then some think tanks with agenda. Market data are more neutral from political agenda.

seaspear · Nov 3, 2024

IMF 2025 growth forecast for Russia too pessimistic, does not factor in govt measures - minister The I.M.F does forecast a lower growth figure of 1.3 for 2025 for Russia without explaining its reasoning for this fall

Feanor · Nov 3, 2024

Update.

Kursk area.

Ukraine counter-attacked at Zeleniy Shlyakh but the counter-attack was repulsed. Meanwhile some map corrections show Dar'ino contested and Nikolaevo-Dar'ino in Ukrainian hands. The Russian counter-offensive in Kursk seems to have been halted along the Snagost' river, up to Zeleniy Shlyakh.

Suriyakmaps

Ukrainian-Russian war. Day 974: Situation on Kursk front: - At Korenevsky district Ukrainian Army launched new attack towards Zelenyi Shlyakh which was repelled by Russian Army. In addition, map corrections were made showing that the locality of Nikolaevo-Dar'ino is under Ukrainian control while...

t.me

Russian BMD-4Ms from the 106th VDV firing at or through a tree-line, Kursk region.

The Russian-Ukrainian War Thread

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