Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ability to perform lines of tasking as follows: 3 submarines for continental defence/global deployment, 3 submarines for national and international exercises and force generation simultaneously.

Explanation: In accordance with ONSAF, CPSP is exploring the renewal and expansion of the CAF’s submarine fleet to enable the RCN to project a persistent deterrent on all three coasts, with under-ice capable, conventionally powered submarines. The CPS fleet size must be sufficient to complete assigned missions and roles throughout its service life. In order to achieve 6 simultaneously operational submarines as described above, it is acknowledged that the total fleet size must be larger to accommodate submarines in various levels of maintenance.

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Ability to operate discretely without external support for minimum transits of 7000nm (2x 3500nm) at 8kts, and a minimum of 21 days of continuous dived operations while on station. Capable of no less than 60 days self-sustained operation.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of conducting continental defence missions including Arctic patrols from home ports in Halifax and Esquimalt. The absence of support facilities in the Arctic mean that the submarine must be able to conduct such patrols unsupported.
Wow interesting.... 6 continuously deployed submarines.. So 18?

I'm not sure this is about SCS, this is more about arctic waters. Which is fair enough for Canada. That is a pressing issue for them, and subs are subs and and move and do things.
Is the torpedo tube launched Tomahawk still in production for the RN submarines? Or will these boats require VLS?
Given the timeframe I am not sure TLAM is relevant. Given the AOR Im not sure TLAM will be as useful for Canada. I believe its an encapsulated capability, if Canada was really desperate, a few could be sourced from USN.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
But isnt the arctic "small" not only geographically thanks to its position and thus skewed representation on maps, but also operationally?

How many ships can operate in arctic waters and thus how much is the requirement for subs in the region?

Or are the russian SSBNs the main requirement of the Canadians? And in that case whats the russian dottrine for SSBN ? Would they launch from Artic waters? Specially when they are so "close" geographically similar to the strategic role that Alaska has for the US?

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
But isnt the arctic "small" not only geographically thanks to its position and thus skewed representation on maps, but also operationally?

How many ships can operate in arctic waters and thus how much is the requirement for subs in the region?

Or are the russian SSBNs the main requirement of the Canadians? And in that case whats the russian dottrine for SSBN ? Would they launch from Artic waters? Specially when they are so "close" geographically similar to the strategic role that Alaska has for the US?

The high Arctic Islands are still a significant amount of land despite the skewed maps. Once the ice decline starts, subs will be the best ships for keeping trespassers honest.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wow interesting.... 6 continuously deployed submarines.. So 18?

I'm not sure this is about SCS, this is more about arctic waters. Which is fair enough for Canada. That is a pressing issue for them, and subs are subs and and move and do things.

Given the timeframe I am not sure TLAM is relevant. Given the AOR Im not sure TLAM will be as useful for Canada. I believe its an encapsulated capability, if Canada was really desperate, a few could be sourced from USN.
If this acquisition idea survives, 3 continuously deployed subs is more likely so 9 seems more realistic. There will have to budget cuts to make this happen IMHO. Most cuts should be anywhere but from DND, politically difficult. Depending on how fast the ice disappears, heavy ice breakers elimination saves several billions.
 

Sender

Active Member
If this acquisition idea survives, 3 continuously deployed subs is more likely so 9 seems more realistic. There will have to budget cuts to make this happen IMHO. Most cuts should be anywhere but from DND, politically difficult. Depending on how fast the ice disappears, heavy ice breakers elimination saves several billions.
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
At a minimum, Canadianization likely will include partial assembly in Canada. The whining from industry will be loud given a 12 boat fleet will cost $20 billion CDN minimum for the boats alone.
 

Underway

Member
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
1:1:2 ratio.

Given the definitions in the requirements: 1 boat on deployment (60 day - 6 month mission somewhere), 1 boat doing in and outs for maximum a few weeks at a time getting worked up to take over a deployment or doing trials/training, and 2 boats in extended work periods/docked. Multiply by three oceans and you end up with 12 boats.

The RFI also mentions that they expect there might be an increase (depending on what industry comes back with and what's possible).
 

Underway

Member
I wonder how close the capability requirements from this RFI are to the ones that resulted in the RAN selecting the shortfin Barracuda.
During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.

Is the torpedo tube launched Tomahawk still in production for the RN submarines? Or will these boats require VLS?
The boat will require a land attack missile. They are agnostic right now on how that happens. Korea has ballistic missiles vertically launched and the Germans will offer Naval Strike Missile (which can be used for land attack) tube launched as two very different solutions to that requirement.
They are asking a lot from a very lean crew size, not to mention the endurance requirements to basically transit to the SCS, operate for 21 days and return.
Crewing for the 212CD is 35 pers. It can be done. Endurance is a big ask though. 7000nm is further than the transit from Esquimalt to Halifax through the NWP. So you could easily get to the Arctic approaches, sail around a bunch and then make it home with gas to spare.

But its also a transpacific transit which is important. Victoria to Manila is ~5,719 nm. So if you gas up in Japan, or Hawaii you have a lot of time on station.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
At a minimum, Canadianization likely will include partial assembly in Canada. The whining from industry will be loud given a 12 boat fleet will cost $20 billion CDN minimum for the boats alone.
With that many boats there is a strong argument to have local production and support. While overseas yards can supply boats, a 12 boat build is pretty big for excess slack capacity. The Japanese for example would be off the table, if they were ever on the table (Im not sure they are, they are very focused on their own program).

There are some capable conventional boats out there, but with subs it really does depend on how you want to use them and where you want to use them.

The next generation of boats are likely to be very attractive and be good set for analysis. I hope Canada decides not to modify them too much, at delivery and costs quickly explode in that case, particularly with Canada, having no experience in building submarines, and only operating a very small fleet.

During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.
Barracuda is a very interesting concept, I hope the Dutch can make it work. It will be a very large, very long range submarine. But the crew compliment is way higher than Canada's expectations. However I would imagine those in the Canadian Navy would be really excited for that particular platform.

I suspect that Canada will look at something smaller from Germany/Korea/France. But then there are struggles with endurance, speed, weapons to address. As with all projects, meeting all criteria is difficult, particularly if that criteria isn't based off existing platforms.
 

Sender

Active Member
During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.


The boat will require a land attack missile. They are agnostic right now on how that happens. Korea has ballistic missiles vertically launched and the Germans will offer Naval Strike Missile (which can be used for land attack) tube launched as two very different solutions to that requirement.

Crewing for the 212CD is 35 pers. It can be done. Endurance is a big ask though. 7000nm is further than the transit from Esquimalt to Halifax through the NWP. So you could easily get to the Arctic approaches, sail around a bunch and then make it home with gas to spare.

But its also a transpacific transit which is important. Victoria to Manila is ~5,719 nm. So if you gas up in Japan, or Hawaii you have a lot of time on station.
Interesting article on the expanded expeditionary version of the Swedish A26 (the C71), that suggests some pretty spectacular capabilities, along with a fairly small crewing complement:

.
 

Underway

Member
Spare build capacity for 2028 will exist in Korea, Sweden and France. Not sure about Germany with the 212CD's or the Spanish offering.

My personal opinons are as follows...

Korean KSIII meets the requirements, though the crew complement is a bit high. Interesting thing about their boats is the do Li batteries and AIP. As well as have SLBM capability. They also told Poland recently that from order to delivery 6 years for a submarine. Drawbacks are that Korean torps/missiles would need to be purchased (though Korean Torps are arguably better than the most recent version of the Mk48).

Japanese Taipai class, extremly interesting submarine. Unknown if it can meet the range requirements but its Li batteries make up for it by significantly decreasing the indiscretion rate for snorting. They also have excellent sensors and acoustic properties.

Swedish C71 meets the requirements and in many cases exceeds them on paper. Double the required range and underwater endurance. However there isn't a boat in the water at this time and that's a mark against them. Sweden entering NATO does also improve their interoperability options as well.

Spanish S80 seems to meet a lot of the requirements but I'm not to confident in this boat. It had significant teething problems, took forever to fix and is the first submarine built by Navantia. I would prefer to go with some other builder who has more experience at this point.

French Blackfin Barracuda should meet the requirements as they are very similar to the Dutch ones. This submarine makes me excited and working/sailing/training with the Dutch sub fleet is an RCN tradition. Orka Class according to open source is more then double the range and has 35-43 crew with 16 spare bunks. Assuming the Dutch stay with the Mk48 torp then that's all taken care of. Li batteries and likely AIP are to be installed.

German/Norwegian 212CD(E). This is probably the smallest of the submarines on offer and likely has the shortest range. However it has a lot of things going for it. It's basically an F-22 stealth fighter underwater with its angled secondary hull, quiet torp launching capability, anti air missile capability and very shallow operations (17m of depth!). It's AIP is well developed previously being on earlier German submarines and is a fuel cell technology. Germany and Norway also proposed that if Canada goes with this submarine they are willing to do combined crewing before delivery to ensure that RCN sailors are fully trained and can take the submarine straight out with little down time learning the new equipment.

If I had to pick two I would say Blackfin and KSS III (though I'm waffling between that and C71). But there is a lot of road left and with only open source to look at I'm sure there is a lot more to evaluate.
 
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StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
(though Korean Torps are arguably better than the most recent version of the Mk48).
Hmm. Not sure many would agree with that. Mk48 Tech insert 1 is IMO very likely to be the torpedo Canada goes with, if they acquire new torpedos.

Spanish were eliminated or didn't even compete on some recent selections. The S80 has had a long development/build. There are more modern designs in the water. This would be a big and complex build, I am not sure this is the type of program the Spanish would be looking at anyway.

212A/CD is a costal submarine, with a single diesel engine and isn't ideal for long range patrol, as it will have a very slow transit speed and a single point of failure. It is based around slow patrols with short transits. The 214 or one based off that is more likely to be more appropriate, it at least has 2 engines and moderate range. 209 has 4 smaller less powerful engines, but was very popular with those who want long range patrols.

The KSS-III has 3 engines, long range, endurance, etc. Barracuda is expected to have 4, but the numbers often change, its not in the water yet.

The Japanese subs have proven long transits, but it isn't clear at what speed with just two engines (presumably 1.5Mw each). The Japanese don't have to travel far to their area of operations, and land attack capability from a sub is of no particular use or interest for them.

Sweden, well there is risk there. I would want to see a sub in the water before committing.

I would imagine the Canadians would want 3-4 engines for long transits. I think the Korean or French/Dutch would be of most interest to the Canadians. But the crewing considerations may exclude the Barracuda completely, perhaps if it is just a 6 sub build. Or they could get more numerous Scorpene.

Low crewing isn't magic. If you want a capable long endurance submarine, you will need crew. The Baracuda and the Scopene are targeted at two different customers. Both the KSS-III and the Orka are ~50 crew.
 

downunderblue

New Member
When I think of this, I somewhat have a strange sense of déjà vu coming over me ...

I like Canada. I like Canadians. Professionally in a previous life/ space we worked really well together and I have nothing but admiration for them professionally. This is especially relevant when you hear of the absolute crap they have to deal with from a headquarters and political class. They have a bureaucracy and politics who sense no real understanding of threat, nor expediency and are happy to go round and round in circles focused on the latest hot spot issue whilst completely impeding the ability of those professionals to actually do the job they signed up for.

Canada's strategic environment is rapidly changing but the political class seem completely asleep at the wheel.

Now I know it’s of limited value, but after watching the drama of the RAN SEA-1000 process, can I formally say one time only never to be mentioned again, that the CDF would be crazy not to consider a SSN such as the Suffren/ Barracuda SSN option in their competitive tender process.

Let all of the options stack up one by one and assess them on their cost/ merits/ ability to their meet operational requirements.

In 2015, the new PM stated “Canadians know full well that for 10 years, the Conservatives completely missed the boat when it came to delivering to Canadians and their armed forces the equipment they needed”. I note this comment proceeded another 8 years of fluff, only to select the same aircraft recommended in 2015.

I logically can't see how a SS will meet Canada's operational requirements, especially when the strategic environment is becoming more complex, demanding and larger in physical area. If they can do so, then great, but it would be just mad to put your blinkers on and only review the politically convenient choices.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
When I think of this, I somewhat have a strange sense of déjà vu coming over me ...

I like Canada. I like Canadians. Professionally in a previous life/ space we worked really well together and I have nothing but admiration for them professionally. This is especially relevant when you hear of the absolute crap they have to deal with from a headquarters and political class. They have a bureaucracy and politics who sense no real understanding of threat, nor expediency and are happy to go round and round in circles focused on the latest hot spot issue whilst completely impeding the ability of those professionals to actually do the job they signed up for.

Canada's strategic environment is rapidly changing but the political class seem completely asleep at the wheel.

Now I know it’s of limited value, but after watching the drama of the RAN SEA-1000 process, can I formally say one time only never to be mentioned again, that the CDF would be crazy not to consider a SSN such as the Suffren/ Barracuda SSN option in their competitive tender process.

Let all of the options stack up one by one and assess them on their cost/ merits/ ability to their meet operational requirements.

In 2015, the new PM stated “Canadians know full well that for 10 years, the Conservatives completely missed the boat when it came to delivering to Canadians and their armed forces the equipment they needed”. I note this comment proceeded another 8 years of fluff, only to select the same aircraft recommended in 2015.

I logically can't see how a SS will meet Canada's operational requirements, especially when the strategic environment is becoming more complex, demanding and larger in physical area. If they can do so, then great, but it would be just mad to put your blinkers on and only review the politically convenient choices.
By time all the necessary Canadianization requirements are designed in, the resulting cost would be enormous. France has already been down this path so I doubt any design and major kit options would be acceptable to France.
Also, the usual anti nuke rabble would cause some problems but the bigger political problem would be Quebec involvement.
 

CorvetteCrunch

New Member
Hmm. Not sure many would agree with that. Mk48 Tech insert 1 is IMO very likely to be the torpedo Canada goes with, if they acquire new torpedos.

Spanish were eliminated or didn't even compete on some recent selections. The S80 has had a long development/build. There are more modern designs in the water. This would be a big and complex build, I am not sure this is the type of program the Spanish would be looking at anyway.

212A/CD is a costal submarine, with a single diesel engine and isn't ideal for long range patrol, as it will have a very slow transit speed and a single point of failure. It is based around slow patrols with short transits. The 214 or one based off that is more likely to be more appropriate, it at least has 2 engines and moderate range. 209 has 4 smaller less powerful engines, but was very popular with those who want long range patrols.

The KSS-III has 3 engines, long range, endurance, etc. Barracuda is expected to have 4, but the numbers often change, its not in the water yet.

The Japanese subs have proven long transits, but it isn't clear at what speed with just two engines (presumably 1.5Mw each). The Japanese don't have to travel far to their area of operations, and land attack capability from a sub is of no particular use or interest for them.

Sweden, well there is risk there. I would want to see a sub in the water before committing.

I would imagine the Canadians would want 3-4 engines for long transits. I think the Korean or French/Dutch would be of most interest to the Canadians. But the crewing considerations may exclude the Barracuda completely, perhaps if it is just a 6 sub build. Or they could get more numerous Scorpene.

Low crewing isn't magic. If you want a capable long endurance submarine, you will need crew. The Baracuda and the Scopene are targeted at two different customers. Both the KSS-III and the Orka are ~50 crew.
I think you are confusing the Type 212A with the Type 212CD, given how the former has one diesel engine and the latter has two. The CD is significantly larger than either the Type 212A or the Type 214 and presumably will have far better endurance than either variants otherwise mentioned. It seems likely that Canada would be offered the Type 212CDE which was offered to the Dutch, being an even more expanded variant of the baseline CD to better fit the requirements of the CPS program. The only other German option that is larger was the never built Type 216 pitched for Australia however, that wouldn't meet the Canadian requirements for an operational or in production submarine.
 

CorvetteCrunch

New Member
When I think of this, I somewhat have a strange sense of déjà vu coming over me ...

I like Canada. I like Canadians. Professionally in a previous life/ space we worked really well together and I have nothing but admiration for them professionally. This is especially relevant when you hear of the absolute crap they have to deal with from a headquarters and political class. They have a bureaucracy and politics who sense no real understanding of threat, nor expediency and are happy to go round and round in circles focused on the latest hot spot issue whilst completely impeding the ability of those professionals to actually do the job they signed up for.

Canada's strategic environment is rapidly changing but the political class seem completely asleep at the wheel.

Now I know it’s of limited value, but after watching the drama of the RAN SEA-1000 process, can I formally say one time only never to be mentioned again, that the CDF would be crazy not to consider a SSN such as the Suffren/ Barracuda SSN option in their competitive tender process.

Let all of the options stack up one by one and assess them on their cost/ merits/ ability to their meet operational requirements.

In 2015, the new PM stated “Canadians know full well that for 10 years, the Conservatives completely missed the boat when it came to delivering to Canadians and their armed forces the equipment they needed”. I note this comment proceeded another 8 years of fluff, only to select the same aircraft recommended in 2015.

I logically can't see how a SS will meet Canada's operational requirements, especially when the strategic environment is becoming more complex, demanding and larger in physical area. If they can do so, then great, but it would be just mad to put your blinkers on and only review the politically convenient choices.
I would argue the opposite, that it would be crazy for Canada to even consider the French SSN design for their competition. The RCN has seriously looked into procuring SSN's twice before in the past and both times the endeavor was a failure due to the inherent unaffordable costs from every avenue alongside a general lack of government support. The infrastructure upgrades required for Canada to domestically operate any sizable SSN fleet would be very high, given you'd effectively need to build an entirely new base on each coast for them with all of the required hardware to upkeep them as well. Have fun dealing with anti-nuclear NIMBY politicians and locals having an absolute fit when they find out that Canada is getting nuclear submarines and basing them on both coasts. The increased security required alongside the requirements for domestic refueling infrastructure would be brutal, unless Canada would be happy sending their submarines to France every decade to have the reactors refueled given they use a far lower level of enrichment in their fuel than US reactor models.

There is also the issue of personnel, given submarine personnel are already quite difficult to train and now you are looking at adding nuclear propulsion technicians into the equitation. With the safety requirements and rigorous standards required to be followed, its not joe blow beating away at a diesel engine with a wrench here. The pipeline to train a reasonable number of these operators is quite a bit more difficult than conventionally powered boat equivalents. How long will it take to produce these experienced and fully qualified nuclear technicians? Australia is looking at this issue right now and there isn't any quick fix, you need to wait quite a long time to get this manpower pool properly established. You'd require more crew as well for a French SSN compared to the conventional requirements Canada is considering which while less than US/UK boats, is still a good jump above conventional boats.

Even if Canada had the long term political willpower to look into SSN's, the reality of the situation would be that the required manpower, infrastructure and operational costs would be ruinous in the end. That is why nuclear submarines aren't meaningfully considered, because it is not feasible for Canada in any way you slice it. We've been down that road before and there is nothing to gain from trying again.

Conventional boats lack a lot of the major boons that SSN's have however, it is entirely possible for Canada to seemingly meet its requirements without going nuclear. Overseas deployments and work throughout the areas of the Arctic is more than doable, otherwise this entire program would have been discarded along with the submarine branch long ago. It is not ideal however, the ideal option is entirely out of our reach.
 

CorvetteCrunch

New Member
At a minimum, Canadianization likely will include partial assembly in Canada. The whining from industry will be loud given a 12 boat fleet will cost $20 billion CDN minimum for the boats alone.
The RCN and Govt staff have been very adamant thus far that these boats will be effectively entirely built abroad, no Canadian company will ever be able to do partial assembly on modern conventional submarines anytime soon. Canada is going to require that the successful bid actively engage and develop Canadian industry to allow us to domestically upkeep, refit and repair these submarines over their lifetime though. That is where the majority of the domestic offsets and money will come from, the lifetime upkeep of the vessels.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
The RCN and Govt staff have been very adamant thus far that these boats will be effectively entirely built abroad, no Canadian company will ever be able to do partial assembly on modern conventional submarines anytime soon. Canada is going to require that the successful bid actively engage and develop Canadian industry to allow us to domestically upkeep, refit and repair these submarines over their lifetime though. That is where the majority of the domestic offsets and money will come from, the lifetime upkeep of the vessels.
Pollies bend with changing electoral winds so who knows what could happen. That being said, an offshore build will offer faster delivery and should be less expensive.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
The RCN and Govt staff have been very adamant thus far that these boats will be effectively entirely built abroad, no Canadian company will ever be able to do partial assembly on modern conventional submarines anytime soon. Canada is going to require that the successful bid actively engage and develop Canadian industry to allow us to domestically upkeep, refit and repair these submarines over their lifetime though. That is where the majority of the domestic offsets and money will come from, the lifetime upkeep of the vessels.
OK this changes the game since this allows to compete way more on the pricing of the subs.
 
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