Royal Canadian Navy Discussions and updates

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Ability to perform lines of tasking as follows: 3 submarines for continental defence/global deployment, 3 submarines for national and international exercises and force generation simultaneously.

Explanation: In accordance with ONSAF, CPSP is exploring the renewal and expansion of the CAF’s submarine fleet to enable the RCN to project a persistent deterrent on all three coasts, with under-ice capable, conventionally powered submarines. The CPS fleet size must be sufficient to complete assigned missions and roles throughout its service life. In order to achieve 6 simultaneously operational submarines as described above, it is acknowledged that the total fleet size must be larger to accommodate submarines in various levels of maintenance.

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Ability to operate discretely without external support for minimum transits of 7000nm (2x 3500nm) at 8kts, and a minimum of 21 days of continuous dived operations while on station. Capable of no less than 60 days self-sustained operation.

Explanation: The CPS must be capable of conducting continental defence missions including Arctic patrols from home ports in Halifax and Esquimalt. The absence of support facilities in the Arctic mean that the submarine must be able to conduct such patrols unsupported.
Wow interesting.... 6 continuously deployed submarines.. So 18?

I'm not sure this is about SCS, this is more about arctic waters. Which is fair enough for Canada. That is a pressing issue for them, and subs are subs and and move and do things.
Is the torpedo tube launched Tomahawk still in production for the RN submarines? Or will these boats require VLS?
Given the timeframe I am not sure TLAM is relevant. Given the AOR Im not sure TLAM will be as useful for Canada. I believe its an encapsulated capability, if Canada was really desperate, a few could be sourced from USN.
 

Meriv90

Active Member
But isnt the arctic "small" not only geographically thanks to its position and thus skewed representation on maps, but also operationally?

How many ships can operate in arctic waters and thus how much is the requirement for subs in the region?

Or are the russian SSBNs the main requirement of the Canadians? And in that case whats the russian dottrine for SSBN ? Would they launch from Artic waters? Specially when they are so "close" geographically similar to the strategic role that Alaska has for the US?

 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
But isnt the arctic "small" not only geographically thanks to its position and thus skewed representation on maps, but also operationally?

How many ships can operate in arctic waters and thus how much is the requirement for subs in the region?

Or are the russian SSBNs the main requirement of the Canadians? And in that case whats the russian dottrine for SSBN ? Would they launch from Artic waters? Specially when they are so "close" geographically similar to the strategic role that Alaska has for the US?

The high Arctic Islands are still a significant amount of land despite the skewed maps. Once the ice decline starts, subs will be the best ships for keeping trespassers honest.
 

John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Wow interesting.... 6 continuously deployed submarines.. So 18?

I'm not sure this is about SCS, this is more about arctic waters. Which is fair enough for Canada. That is a pressing issue for them, and subs are subs and and move and do things.

Given the timeframe I am not sure TLAM is relevant. Given the AOR Im not sure TLAM will be as useful for Canada. I believe its an encapsulated capability, if Canada was really desperate, a few could be sourced from USN.
If this acquisition idea survives, 3 continuously deployed subs is more likely so 9 seems more realistic. There will have to budget cuts to make this happen IMHO. Most cuts should be anywhere but from DND, politically difficult. Depending on how fast the ice disappears, heavy ice breakers elimination saves several billions.
 

Sender

Active Member
If this acquisition idea survives, 3 continuously deployed subs is more likely so 9 seems more realistic. There will have to budget cuts to make this happen IMHO. Most cuts should be anywhere but from DND, politically difficult. Depending on how fast the ice disappears, heavy ice breakers elimination saves several billions.
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
 
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John Fedup

The Bunker Group
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
At a minimum, Canadianization likely will include partial assembly in Canada. The whining from industry will be loud given a 12 boat fleet will cost $20 billion CDN minimum for the boats alone.
 

Underway

Member
Don't forget the new Indo-Pacific strategy commits Canada to maintaining a naval presence in that region. I think the absolute minimum requirement is one for the Atlantic (coastal sovereignty patrol) one for he Arctic (coastal sovereignty patrol), one for the Pacific (coastal sovereignty patrol), at least one for expeditionary tasks, and the ability to "surge" two others. However, 12 might still be able to provide enough operational hulls. There is a stated goal amongst major operating nations of reducing the number of heavy maintenance periods in the lifetime of a sub by at least one through the combination of better materials and technology. If that can be achieved, and through clever management of the fleet, it may be possible to reduce the submarine operating ratio, which, depending on the source, is somewhere between 3:1 and 4:1. To me. it seems reasonable to assume that the latest tech should generate better availability. In any case, this is a big prize for whichever company wins the RFP, so competition will probably be fierce behind the scenes. It will also be interesting to see how much or how little "Canadianization" occurs, given the tight timeline and Admiral Topshee's stated preference for a MOTS solution.
1:1:2 ratio.

Given the definitions in the requirements: 1 boat on deployment (60 day - 6 month mission somewhere), 1 boat doing in and outs for maximum a few weeks at a time getting worked up to take over a deployment or doing trials/training, and 2 boats in extended work periods/docked. Multiply by three oceans and you end up with 12 boats.

The RFI also mentions that they expect there might be an increase (depending on what industry comes back with and what's possible).
 

Underway

Member
I wonder how close the capability requirements from this RFI are to the ones that resulted in the RAN selecting the shortfin Barracuda.
During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.

Is the torpedo tube launched Tomahawk still in production for the RN submarines? Or will these boats require VLS?
The boat will require a land attack missile. They are agnostic right now on how that happens. Korea has ballistic missiles vertically launched and the Germans will offer Naval Strike Missile (which can be used for land attack) tube launched as two very different solutions to that requirement.
They are asking a lot from a very lean crew size, not to mention the endurance requirements to basically transit to the SCS, operate for 21 days and return.
Crewing for the 212CD is 35 pers. It can be done. Endurance is a big ask though. 7000nm is further than the transit from Esquimalt to Halifax through the NWP. So you could easily get to the Arctic approaches, sail around a bunch and then make it home with gas to spare.

But its also a transpacific transit which is important. Victoria to Manila is ~5,719 nm. So if you gas up in Japan, or Hawaii you have a lot of time on station.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
At a minimum, Canadianization likely will include partial assembly in Canada. The whining from industry will be loud given a 12 boat fleet will cost $20 billion CDN minimum for the boats alone.
With that many boats there is a strong argument to have local production and support. While overseas yards can supply boats, a 12 boat build is pretty big for excess slack capacity. The Japanese for example would be off the table, if they were ever on the table (Im not sure they are, they are very focused on their own program).

There are some capable conventional boats out there, but with subs it really does depend on how you want to use them and where you want to use them.

The next generation of boats are likely to be very attractive and be good set for analysis. I hope Canada decides not to modify them too much, at delivery and costs quickly explode in that case, particularly with Canada, having no experience in building submarines, and only operating a very small fleet.

During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.
Barracuda is a very interesting concept, I hope the Dutch can make it work. It will be a very large, very long range submarine. But the crew compliment is way higher than Canada's expectations. However I would imagine those in the Canadian Navy would be really excited for that particular platform.

I suspect that Canada will look at something smaller from Germany/Korea/France. But then there are struggles with endurance, speed, weapons to address. As with all projects, meeting all criteria is difficult, particularly if that criteria isn't based off existing platforms.
 

Sender

Active Member
During an inteview on USNI podcast channel VAdm Topshee (Commander RCN) stated that the Dutch requirements were very similar to the RCN ones.


The boat will require a land attack missile. They are agnostic right now on how that happens. Korea has ballistic missiles vertically launched and the Germans will offer Naval Strike Missile (which can be used for land attack) tube launched as two very different solutions to that requirement.

Crewing for the 212CD is 35 pers. It can be done. Endurance is a big ask though. 7000nm is further than the transit from Esquimalt to Halifax through the NWP. So you could easily get to the Arctic approaches, sail around a bunch and then make it home with gas to spare.

But its also a transpacific transit which is important. Victoria to Manila is ~5,719 nm. So if you gas up in Japan, or Hawaii you have a lot of time on station.
Interesting article on the expanded expeditionary version of the Swedish A26 (the C71), that suggests some pretty spectacular capabilities, along with a fairly small crewing complement:

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